BodyGeneral body information and techniques for repairing, restoring, and modifying your car.
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I'm sure most of you have experienced those wonderful high points of 3rd gen f-bodys - the doors. Sagging, scraping, rattling, leaking, you name the door ailment, our cars suffer from it.
I've had my car for 17 years now and have attempted hinge pin replacement, window adjustments, striker adjustments, all the easier fixes to try to squelch the din from the doors and nothing solves the issues. I've had the door panels off so many times they disintegrated!
Well, after putting so much time and effort into the rest of the car the door problems were getting harder to put-off and the wife finally said, "FIX IT" after getting a lap full of rain WITH THE WINDOWS UP!
A quick few clicks on Hawk's and Top Down Solutions and I had most of the replacement parts I would need -
New door panels (upgraded to the velour!)
New door panel upper moulding (the plastic part)
Greasable door hinge kits
Power door lock button decals
and Outer door sweeps
I also went to the local parts store for rubberized undercoating, zip-ties, new window motors, acetone, lithium grease, and one more stop to the local body shop supply dealer for the GM 1/4" rivets. I also borrowed a 1/4" rivet gun from the local MAC tools guy (take care of them, they'll return the favor).
After removing the remains of my door panels and vapor barrier I was greeted with this...
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__________________ Rest in peace my wonderful wife, Gina - 1969-2008
I miss you every day....
My updated CarDomain site! http://www.cardomain.com/id/murco1989
One-owner 1989 RS, ZZ4, Comp Cams valvetrain, Edelbrock headers and cat back, Astro performance T-5, Moser rear, Alpine/Infinity/Kicker strereo, and Recaro "Sport" seats. More coming soon!
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Here is another big source of rattle headaches - a missing limiter (replaced at the factory with a bolt!) and sash roller hanging on by a thread! If anyone has removed the door glass without removing the sash or roller, let me know!
Also notice the crud at the bottom of the door! This is what leads to rust in southern cars...
I ground the backs of the rollers to remove the door glass which allowed me to "fix" them as well. I drilled them out, tapped them, and bolted them back on. This will eliminate the slop and allow me to remove them easier in the future.
With the doors empty and suddenly 1/3 lighter, it was time to replace the hinges. I spent 4 hours attempting to ground out the passenger-side hinges without removing the door - FORGET IT!!! We may have some talented folks on here but I ain't one of them as I did little more than grind through the paint on the back of the door lip! I finally removed the doors and did the job right!
I'm sure most of you are well aware of the greasable hinges sold by TDS and most have seen the article in CHP. I was one of the skeptical ones for years but I will tell you now - problably one of the singlemost dramatic changes to the feel my car came from installing these hinges! This car's body didn't feel this good when brand new! It always felt flexible, but no more. The install is a pain but well worth it!
After re-attaching the doors I undercoated the inside of the doors and allowed them to dry and gas-out for 3 hours. I then started the re-assembly of the regulator and glass.
WARNING - DO NOT ATTEMPT REPLACEMENT OF THE WINDOW MOTOR WITHOUT FIRST SECURING THE RETURN SPRING! There are a few posts about this subject so I wont go into detail. Let me just say - I never want to do that job again!
I cleaned the guides with acetone, dried them, then lubed the guides with the lithium grease.
You'll need to remove and reinsert the regulator through the opening at the end of the door, then attach the sash roller (bolted-on as I did), and then guide the rollers onto the sash. Slide the roller onto the rear vertical guide, and then the locator guide located behind the armrest and bolt them in. At this time it's best to attach the outer sash on both doors and attach (and guide) the wiring.
Once the regulators have been pop-riveted I made sure all of the window guides were in the original locations, zip-tied any loose wiring that had broken mounts, and tightened everything up. I double-checked the wiring routing, window and door lock operation, and adjustments. At this point I attached the inner door vapor barrier (I bought heavyweight polypropolene) using gasket sealant and installed the new door panels.
I'll post completed pictures later today but let me tell you - the difference is amazing! The doors sound fantastic, closing with a firm, solid thump. I'm also rearranging the mids/tweeters locations so I'll have to finish that as well today!
very nice, clean it up and submit it as a tech article I've never attempted to repair my doors yet as they just started sounding empty but some of the guys on the board know of a few other trouble spots in the doors to help keep them sturdy.
as far as i know the pannals have NEVER been off the doors on my GTA. the ones in my v6 bird are getting prety shody from so many removals... i am going to do this same thing to my GTA some time soon. pull the pannals off, new EVERYHTING, put the pannals back on. do it once do it right.
Great writeup. i will be bookmarking this thread for later refference for when i do my own. thanks much
__________________ Member/Moderator @ www.cascadecrew.org
1986 base BIRD LB8_2.8L_V6 17.4@76MPH. mods:
4th-gen console, 2002 cavalier front seats, 140MPH speedo, completly de-cluttered engine bay, lots of "free" mods. complete front suspension and stearing rebuild. Custom Cold Air Intake.
1988 Trans Am GTA 5.7L TPI L98 14.3@97MPH. mods:
base model spoiler, 4th gen console, 4th gen charcol leather seats, free mods, 89+ rear disc brakes, SLP shorty headers and Y-pipe, full 3" hooker catback, WCT-5 trannsmission, centerforce dual friction clutch. COMING SOON: 4th gen doorhandles, custom transsmisssion crossmember, SFCs, 98+ front brakes.
I should have gone into more detail about adjusting the glass!
On this picture you will find;
1- The upper position tabs - These 2 felt covered tabs control the position of your glass when rolled-up (inward and outward).
2- Forward positioning adjustment - That large triangle at the front of your doors (sorry the pic didn't have it) allows you to adjust the position (in/out and height) of the front of the door glass.
3- Down limit adjustment - This controls how far down the door glass can go. Most of our cars do not have this any longer and I used a bolt and 2 nuts to make mine work. Had I known this would be an issue on my car I would have made something ahead of time using some kind of urethane (skateboard wheels maybe?
To adjust the door glass start with the front positioning adjustment (#2) and adjust it's position to were the triangle is barely squeezing the weatherstripping when the door is closed. It's perfect when you can just tug a dollar bill from between the triangle and the weatherstripping without much force. The same thing works on the upper tabs (#1) and make sure the force to remove the dollar is uniform around the perimeter of the glass. As for the down limit adjuster (#3), you may not have any adjustment unless you make one! As I said earlier the factory put in this bolt/nut arrangement on my drivers side door so I duplicated it on the passenger side. I adjusted mine so it would bottom-out when the top of the door glass was just inside and even with the inner and outer sweeps.
That seems to have worked on mine pretty well, your results may vary!
This is what I am going to have to do. I've tried adjusting my passenger window so many times, but it still sticks outward too much. I've tried the whole range of adjustments and nothing works. I also know about the panels falling apart from so many removals and the missing stops. I hope I have enough time and courage as you did to get this job done right. Is this a daily driver? And how many hours do you think you have in this project?
Great info, I'll be consulting it in the future when I take on the same project.
If you do submit this as a tech article, can you give more details on some of the procedures, like the installation of the greaseable hinges? You mention it is a real PITA, so there must be some "tricks" you learned along the way...?
THANK YOU!!! This is excellent! I'd love to see this as a PDF or something as a tech article! maybe give it a bit of time as a thread, to get more questions in!
Any more tips you can provide, like with the greaseable hinges install, would definately be appreciated! I think when I do this, i'm not going to use rivets, but use bolts, and i'd remove that rusted plate, and bead blast it and paint it... Not that anyone would ever see it, but it would bug me
Is this a daily driver? And how many hours do you think you have in this project?
Yes, it is a daily driver. If I removed the time I spent chasing my tail in circles this entire job could be accomplished in about 12 hours.
I drove it for a couple of hours today and am still stunned at the difference this has made to the enjoyability of the car. I would have posted more photos but I cut the crap out of my thumb (to the bone!) and spent the afternoon in pain!
__________________ Rest in peace my wonderful wife, Gina - 1969-2008
I miss you every day....
My updated CarDomain site! http://www.cardomain.com/id/murco1989
One-owner 1989 RS, ZZ4, Comp Cams valvetrain, Edelbrock headers and cat back, Astro performance T-5, Moser rear, Alpine/Infinity/Kicker strereo, and Recaro "Sport" seats. More coming soon!
How bad out of alignment was your window before you started? Is it now leak free?
The door sag caused more leakage than the glass as the rear corner wouldn't seal. The door had drooped about 1/8" at the rear and no amount of glass adjustment would make up for it. All of the car's weatherstripping had been replaced about 18 months ago so I had no excuse for the wife getting soaked!
I washed the car yesterday and it was indeed leak free! In doing this I also cleaned and lubricated all of the weatherstripping with silicone brakes grease which helps keep it sealing and spongy.
theres also a sticky on door rattles that has additional info.
and search for my thread on lock restoration. while you have the door completely apart, if youre auto locks are 'sticky', it would be a good time to fix them.
So that's how you adjust the windows. I'm so glad you posted this man, I just got the car back from the paint booth and I need to adjust the new window.
If I could rate the thread, you'd have 5 star from me.
What did you end up doing about the cracked mounting points, and would you mind snapping some pictures?
I didn't take photos of the repairs as I hadn't hear of anyone else having that problem but basically my nieghbor came over and we welded some sheet metal in the spots, drilled and painted the repairs. Easy job and took 20 minutes.
__________________ Rest in peace my wonderful wife, Gina - 1969-2008
I miss you every day....
My updated CarDomain site! http://www.cardomain.com/id/murco1989
One-owner 1989 RS, ZZ4, Comp Cams valvetrain, Edelbrock headers and cat back, Astro performance T-5, Moser rear, Alpine/Infinity/Kicker strereo, and Recaro "Sport" seats. More coming soon!
I searched but couldn't find anything on the window return spring...links would be nice, or if you could explain it that would be fine. Maybe I am searching with the wrong terms?
I searched but couldn't find anything on the window return spring...links would be nice, or if you could explain it that would be fine. Maybe I am searching with the wrong terms?
The return springs need to be blocked before removing the window motors, or you may get hurt! Also, wear safety glasses when working around them. There is a large hole on each of the main arms and the scissor arms that I ran 5-6 heavy-duty zip-ties through to lock them in position. Zip-ties probably aren't the best for this but they worked fine for me. If you do happen to pop them off they are actually not that hard to return into position.
Other than that, put some lubriplate on the spring, the pivot, and the gears and it will work fine.
I just replaced the motor in my door 2 weekends ago, but I need to put in th eTDS hinge parts too.... I'm legally blind and I was wondering, how the hell am I gonna get my big hand (and head) in that corner to ground off those bolts (I have to see stuff close up)... As with you, removing the door is best... can I just open the door and remove the bolts, do I have to go in the inner fender?
Any info on removing the door woudl be great, thanks!
can I just open the door and remove the bolts, do I have to go in the inner fender?
Any info on removing the door woudl be great, thanks!
Rafael
You can remove most of the bolts through the door opening but the lower front bolt is tough to get from there unless you have some really thin wrenches. Remove the 4-5 buttons from the rear of the inner fender and you should be able to reach them fairly easily.
as far as the "sash roller" where did u get that from i havent been able to find one and mines broke and the wondow keeps popin out and wont roll up all the way?
as far as the "sash roller" where did u get that from i havent been able to find one and mines broke and the wondow keeps popin out and wont roll up all the way?
I didn't need to replace mine as once they were cleaned-up with acetone they rolled freely without binding or slop. I would contact the dealer or look for them at Classic Industries. Over 2 years later and still no problems and the doors are still tight and rattle free. My car club members are amazed when they hear my doors close, it sounds like a Mercedes!
__________________ Rest in peace my wonderful wife, Gina - 1969-2008
I miss you every day....
My updated CarDomain site! http://www.cardomain.com/id/murco1989
One-owner 1989 RS, ZZ4, Comp Cams valvetrain, Edelbrock headers and cat back, Astro performance T-5, Moser rear, Alpine/Infinity/Kicker strereo, and Recaro "Sport" seats. More coming soon!
Did you have any problems with the spring in the door hinge?
Does it need to be clamped or is it fairly easy to remove and put in place?
I have heard of a tool to remove/replace it but is it really necessary?
I'm looking to do the complete door refurb next month and want to make sure i have all the parts.
Also did you previously have any problems with smudge marks on the windows when you wind them up?
My guess is its from some kind of guide or rubber bump that has deteriorated and turned too soft, if so did you replace yours?
