Not side-to-side movement, the front-to-back forces...

Neil - I will be the first to admit but I am probably going to steal your idea for my LT1 swap in strengthening the strut towers.... question though.

I see you used rod ended connections - any particular reason other than just for the ability to remove and reinstall it at any time? I was planning on using round tubing with some sort of tabs welded to the endeds and bolted through the top of the strut towers.

Yes, it should help for front to back forces. Alot of the aftermarket STB come with connects to the firewall. IMO, those rods are so small the firewall would not provide much added strength. Going to the frame as we have done, should make for a stronger brace.

You know my original design was pretty much what you described, but after hearing John's idea, I like the look better So, I think it comes down to preference and the look you are going for. The strength for either design would be pretty much the same.

Yup your right, I was really dissapointed in the edelbrock one I bought and sent it back and built one from scratch. Heres my old setup.

that is a sexy bitch right there. very nice

what color of red is on that camaro on page 37??

subscribed

Awsome car man! One of the nicest third gens ive seen

any updates?

Flame Red http://www.freewebs.com/iroczman15/

flame Red http://www.freewebs.com/iroczman15/

sorry for the double

Neil, this car makes me speachless. the color choice, engine choice, interior, and all the custom lil things you have done make this car unique in all aspects VERY VERY AWE INSPIRING! I am wanting to do an lsx swap but after looking at yours, just jealousy man lol very very talented. I am even happy just looking at pics of this bad boy man.

yes, if u were referring to my car as the red camaro on pg 3, the color is a dodge deep flame red. lots of colorsanding was done and extra coats of clear, any questions pm me or check my website

neil... woah ur car is coming along amazing!! ooking back at my post on page 3 i can see how i doubted how well ur car would turn out..and man, all i can say is that has to be the best built 3rd gen i've ever seen to date. very nice. post more progress pics and vids when its on the road. what magazines do you plan on sending it into for a feature?

Yea i was asking bout that car the color is sick man. Very nice looking, but yea man this car of neils still gets to me lol just amazing man lots of time almost 4 years man keep up the hard work.

Hey neil i was think you should get a pic of your car with Kevin Brueggeman's 89 formula ls1 magnum charged sick looking would be a cool photo forced induction to naturally aspirated would be cool or this car in a mag would be sick as well man lol

Hey neil i forgot what kinda strut mounts are those you have, you had a spohn on first right? then switch to something else, which ones are they?

If you mean the caster/camber plates, those are from ARC (Amercan Race Components).

By the way, thanks for the nice comments!

yea yea lol i forgot the stock ones are called the strut mounts aftermarket caster/camber plates thanks neil. So you got any vids of this beast like complete? or still working out some of the kinks?

No, no video of the car complete, though I do have a couple vids on Youtube of the engine at first start and a walk-around of the car. Let me know if you need the link, but it should be somewhere in the last couple of pages. I should have some pics to post soon of the airbox and completed fan shroud.

I can't wait to get this thing on the street! It's so close I can smell the rubber now!

Neil.....You have until June 26th to get the car road ready. That is when you can bring it to Austin & show it off at the Texas state gathering!

yea man i saw the vids i was just wondering bout the smelling rubber part ha well man the car is sick neil. I envy you, that car is the car i would see on the street and be like holy crap dont mess with that lol the thing sounds awesome man i am excited bout doing my ls1 swap in the near future. LSX 454 though god, everything in that car is amazing, when i start my swap you wouldnt mind if i taped into the brain of yours with question would ya? well if so not a big deal congrats on the car. keep us updated with some pics ( that would be nice lol ) and vids anything that goes on.

we need updated pics!
i know you have them.

Updates needed asap.....

....curious for an update if u have one....

sweet set up bro i love the car its crazy time for some
i dont mean to be an azz
but my they scred you really bad on the head light set up 9xxbuxs thats alot bro i got mine for 200 low and high beams hids
cant wait to get home and get started on my car love the car bro

where did you get your setup for $200?

THERE'S THIS SHOP WHERE IM FROM AND THEY ALL TYPES OF HEADLIGHT CONVERTIONS HALOS CLEAR LIGHTS AND ALL THAT STUFF ALL 4 HEADLIGHTS WHERE 120 OTHER 80 WHERE THE HIDS I THINK 6000K SOMETHING LIKE THAT ALSO IVE SEEN SOME GOOD KITS AT EBAY BUT I DONT KNOW THEIR QUALITY MY FRIEND ORDERED FROM EBAY ONCE FOR HIS MONTE CARLOS SS ONE LIGHT CAME BROKEN BUT HE SENT IT BACK AND GOT REPLACED AND HE GOT A DARK BRIGHT BLUE HID KIT IN HIS THEY NEVER GOT BURN OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT MY

Do u have the shops name and number and does it have a website? i really wanna purchase them for my car.

Thanks

Yep like Neil i have the exact same set up for the head lights, pricey but worth it!

its called martinez partes i dont know if they speak english but for sure they do in spanish i dont got the number cuz im deployed over seas i ordered them when i was home the auto parts is in texas mcallen or hidalgo both in texas

vettsfan --

Thank you for serving, need anything sent over?

HID kits can be fairly cheap but how about some true projector housings?

RESINLAKE

THANKS WE ARE REALLY GOOD OVER HERE WE GOT ALL THE NEEDED SUPPLIES BUT IT BE NICE IF THEY GIVE US MORE VACATIONS...

THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT

nope im doing the same thing!!! its been on paper for about 3 years now and started on it last winter
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/fa...-pictures.html (latest project pictures)

Neil, what's the good word sir?

Neil.... what all is left to complete?

I want to see it out there on the street representing!

Hey guys, well, I don't have any new pictures to post but hopefully I will later this week (usual story....I have been to freakin busy). I can say that I have made a couple design changes to the duct from the air box to the throttle body and I think it will be for the better....MORE AIR !

I'll keep you posted and I can't wait to drive it and "represent" either. It's funny, I actually saw a '91-92 Z28 on the road the other day and I was shocked....it's been a while since I have seen a 3rd gen on the streets!

We miss your car, errr I mean we miss you on here! Heh, cant wait to see some new video, hoping to have my plates on next week

been waiting for updates neil! lol

As gorgeous as a build you are doing, I respectfully regret having to inform you that you are very wrong here.

THose lateral braces are not triangulated enough for lateral boxing of the frame either especially with the hiem joint ends on them swiveling about. It is all just extra weight.

Your windsheild is actually chassis strength in crfash design. Trangulating two braces rearward off the STB from the towers to the center of the widsheild helps box the towers centered on the chassis centerline from flex as well as keeping the towers from diagonally flexing rearward and keeping the inside rear tire planted under hard braking. I have proven this in testing of STB 3 pt trangulation performance.

If you have any questions about chassis flex and weaknesses, feel free to check my credentials and ask. I am always grateful to help. You seem like a person that wants things correct.

Dean

This is very close to as strong and disireable setup as it gets. Very nice. You have trangulated the towers and the firewall so they remain in cneterline of the chassis in lateral strain, you have solid linked all mount points without swivels and have all bends as minimal as possible for lateral strength of the radius' and tower mount plates. My only gripe (very small concern) is the closeness of the 3 pt support bars meeting together on the firewall. I would like to see that spread apart about 6 inches to distribute the load onto a firewall mount plate. In doing this, I would also widen the attachment welds of the 3 pt bars to the STB main tube. In other words, I would attach them 3 inches closer to the strut towers so as to keep the good triangulation of the 3pt bars and thus the good boxes affect of the towers- but with better load distribution.

Those 3rd pt connections play a major part in diagonal chassis flex and predictability in hard braking corner entrance. Having them on there will keep the rear inside wheel planted with less chassis flex kinking the windsheild/firwall towards the towers diagonally with flex. Just a simple STB without 3 pt attachmnents triangulated will cause both strut towers to flex sideways together in sequence which still takes away from precise steering control and allows for chassis flex and loss of predictabilty of traction footprints.

Let me give you a simple example of what you are actually doing with these two frame links. It is no different thatn doing this- (First attachment pic with yellow vertical links) THese links swivel and merely just keep the distance of the strut tower to the frame. THe strut tower does not need bracing here from colapsing towards the frame rail.


If it did, this would be a much simpler and FAR STRONGER way to brace the strut tower to the subframe rail below it with double sheared and welded gusset plates. But even this is fairly unnessasary if the STB is done correctly with proper 3 pt bracing. Linking them in support from the higher laterally direct 3pt braces to the firewall is far more potant. (Second pic with red gusset plates weleded to the sibframe rail and to the tower sides.)

You are not doing anything with this bracket to keep the towers centered on the windsheild or centered on the subframe rails. My second rendition would help keep the tops of the strut towers from flexing laterally on the lower subframe rails, but yours only keeps them from flalling closer or streatching away from the subframe rails. It does nothing to help lateral location of the towers by linking the towers to the rails with vertical links that swivel.

IMPORTANT: p.s.- I was asked a few times in PM's to come into here and critic this STB brace buy a few TGO members I will keep nameless. I am merely giving my opinion based on being asked to do so.

Dean

the design neil has helps to keep the strut towers from moving upwards, am i wrong? The best design would be to encorporate both designs because if the strut towers where to go they will go up more than anything and somewhat backwards.

I dont see how neil's design doesnt help more than the 3 pt brace. the 3 pt brace doesnt do too much for upwards movement of the strut towers because the bars on the brace can easily bend upwards.

Someguy, please respectfully tell me how on gods green earth the strut tower is stretching upward? You need to look at my next picture. The yellow is the link support mounts (Even thought hey take a less direct path in his actual design) and the "Green wall is the strut tower wall affected by this support. How is the green area stretching? and especially how is anything here working when the strut load vertically is all the way up in the ornage circle I have labeled up above?

His link is doing nothing. THe green wall area is not stretching upward.

Now lets say for your concern the strut top is moving upward...so what? By maybe 1/8th and inch in extreme (which I HIGHLY doubt not even 1/16th inch because chassis metal fatigue would crack every third gen years ago here if it flexed upward un strut strokes) and if it did flex a little upward it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SUSPENSION GEOMETRY, it is merely at that point a shock mount stretcthing upward another 1/16th inch of no mans land dampering. 99.9% of you peoples cars out thaere are getting more than 1/2" slp play combine in all other polaces of bushing deflections, crap shoock dampering, and or poor tire choice and mechanical spring tractionloss that will occur far more detrimental than this green wall ever stretching upward would minutely affect 1/100th of your strut damper in compression stroke.

EDIT-
I am attaching another sketch showing potential movement upward of the strut shaft and the distance in imaginary red line of where boxing from the subframe rail in this manor will do nothing vertically for the strut shaft mount position in dynamic loading forces or lateral forces. THe tie in point of the links onto the side of the tower not near the strut shaft does nothing for tower flex.

People, when looking at strut tower bracing, you are looking at things wrongly. It is not the strut tower you want to keep still, its ultimately the strut shaft mount position yu want to remain consistant in regards to the lower A-arm mount ears AND the other three tire footprints. IF the tire is resting mostly on this tire foiotprint in an outside front tire hard braking condition, the chassis upper weight will be wanting to motion towards this suspension point, not the tower itself. You want to keep the suspension point isolated laterally and longitudinally. Supporting the side of the tower while the strut mount is still potentially moving is pointless. I will say again, if this was his concern, then he would have been better suited with welded frame gussets on the side of the towers rather than swivel attchments that do nothng in leveraged linkage. Even my first example of a direct "yellow" link would be far greater, but still pointless attaching to the side of the tower. That whole tower can still twist. it needs higher leveraged lateral triangulated support fromth span of the lateral rigid firewall and windsheild span.

Overkill?

Nope. thats not overkill. Thats Jerry's birdcage (Jerrywho), I have seen that in person and know Jerry. That setup keeps the entire nose of the car boxed and square and is still remarkably very light for the amount of bracing it supplies. Those upper strut tower platforms do not migrate or flex anywhere. Just a pain in the *** to work around and remove for maintinance or repairs. I am sure Jerry will tell you the same thing himself.

Jerry is very innovative and one hell of a talented fabricator. This cage rules out any of the diagonal chassis flex I spoke of causing lifting of the inside rear wheel under hard braking corner entrance. My car was so rigid in flx resistace and bushing deflection, etc...that when I removed my 3rd pt braces and just left my STB lateral 2 pt bar my car would get loose under hard braking corner entrance like I describe- IT WAS VERY NOTICIABLE in my car, but again, my car was very built without weak links or poor maintinace anywhere of any part in the chain. When I discovered the Edelbrock tower brackets were flexing, that alone made a big difference in steering imput and entrance balnace as well as predictability and sweet spot control. It eliminated that last bit of sawing at the wheel on corner entrance I had, and my car was light weight unlike you guys heavier V8's which would be even worse with the added weight and lessor 50/50 bias. Those 3rd points do correctly are a vast improvement when combined with solid bearing strut mounts.

I only say upwards because the a-arms move up and down and when using the coil overs they also move up and down - sure they are not perfectly vertical but either way they are putting a huge upward force on the strut towers. That is what I mean by moving up. Neils design is slighlty different than mine. I took UMI's strut tower brace with connects the top of both strut towers and then i am having two bars that come down and connect to the frame rails.

If there is so much for going back to the firewall is there any concern for damage to the firewall or cowl area? There really isnt any structural bracing there. In the end I dont think anyone is trying to drive their car straight into a curb to even have to worry this much... and if you think you might then....

Great info on chassis/suspension theory!

However....

Neil is good friend of mine and for what he's going to be doing with the car, what he already has (chassis and suspension) is more than sufficient. His strut tower brace will help some, but is more for show vs. all-out SCCA road racing. His car is caged, has subframe connectors, boxed control arms, coil-overs, wonder bar, etc. etc. along with a neat looking strut brace that works around his tall intake manifold.

It may see some track time, but most likely it would be 1/4 mile just to see what it will do and the rest of the time (which mostly likely will not be much due to his work load), will be divided between having a little fun on the street and taking it to some shows.

Neil, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the above is pretty accurate.

The STB design is really more to do with packaging.We wanted to tie the strut towers together and this was the only option.

Will the small rods help? Not much...will they hurt? ...No

the final version will have solid rod ends to prevent bar rotation as I have always planned.

If you look real close at the pictures you may notice a humongous aluminum intake maifold that is in the way of making advantageous bar. I have told Neil over and over this car is being built backwards , design it ,build it...then paint it. The next car He builds will be approached in a different manner.

If you don't like it, you don't like it...... But does it really matter




John Bulba
American Race Components
Dallas, Texas

SCCA World Challenge GT Crew Chief-"Podium Finisher"
SCCA World Challenge ,SCCA Trans AM , Grand AM ,ALMS GT, HSR,-team cook

Alot of good points have been raised and it's good that people have the knowledge to share and offer it. That being said, my car (and Mike did a good job of stating this) was not meant to be a SCCA road course car and neither a drag car, but rather the best of both worlds. Will I one day get on a road course and see what I and the car can do? Sure. Will I drag race it? oh hell yeah! But most of all I can't wait to park it, sit down on a lawn chair and drink many beers eat burgers with friends and finally say that IT IS DONE!!!.....ok, at the rate I am going that might be in 2012

In the many years I have owned this car, I have never had a STB, so the one being fabricated will definitely add support (how much is obviously debatable). Being a T-top car, I want to minimize chassy flex as much as possible and with 6-point cage, SFC, trans cross-member mounted to SFC, and the new STB can only help IMO. Also, this is my opinion, but the smaller rods tied into the frame and connected to the STB will offer strength and tie the front of the car together. As to how much they will help....i'll let you know....later.....when I can actually get it on the road