broke91firebird

Looking good man!! making me itch to get my own project under way!! My '91 Firebird is going under the knife so to speak this fall/ winter. Keep up the good work, it should end up looking amazing!!!

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

That's the plan! this is a very rewarding process. Recommend it to anyone.

Wish everything looked better and I had a set direction. Sometimes I have a big ADD issue with the snowball effect. Like well lca would look better,among with;springs,shocks,panhard,sway bar,painted calipers bla bla bla. I need to finish one area before moving on! Or coming up with other idea. I am thinking of really starting to save for a donor car. Not sure if i want/can wait that long though

I also think about going to a decoupled torque arm which would change what I have now(and what I do to it like replace front bushing with Roto joint)


Everything just runs around in my head when I don't have time or money to spend on it

lunati397

its coming along great keep up the good work and as for the rendering keep pushing for it and you will get there.

where in OK are you I drive through there every now and then.

Jk_Under

Exactly

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Proud to say other side is done now. Need cables or try and get these to work? Ebmiller has some for 120! Would like to save where I can. Should I cut and reflare my lines?buy some premade for this? Use ls1 lines and cut to fit? Any ideas out there?


Also need rotors turned,pads,paint. Then rear brakes will be "done"

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

keep my fingers crossed that this deal goes through. im trying to get a '99 ls1 w/ all front accesories,intake to oil pan,t56 with a sg2 clutch for cheap!

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

Good luck with that. That would be sweet. Have you made any progress in the last few months on your car?

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Don't make me report the depressing things.....

Well my wrx needed tires and I had some wheels I bought a few months ago and decided to out them on. That took a large sum of $$

But on the other side, my wrx wheels I think cake out nicely

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

One goal at a time. I was thinking if it wasn't helping that current goal it not important.

Next my goal is the motor and trans. It may be late Dec before I get it.(christmas present) then ill finish rear brakes, possibly buy canton oil pan. Then test fit oil pan and k member and notch it. Then ill temporary set motor in car. Then it will prob sit for awhile. Need to try and save. Focus on moving and getaa dang house with a garage!

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Major disappointment... Engine deal fell through..

So I need to stop my add and finish one area before moving to another. The rear end is not done so I need to work on that. I'm keeping budget tight right now being holidays are coming up and we need to move.

So what should I do? Make brakes functional?(hook up lines, and cables, buy pads, maybe rotors?) Or start from inside? Get and install my posi along with axles,seals.

I'm thinking brakes because I can't hold car if I needed to move it or work under front without e brake. Those are immediate options

Then after moving(hopefully before) ill save for powertrain.

Or do I start doing everything I need to get on road before engine? Like I need gauges, finish pedal and console to accept t56, get gas tank, buy radiator and exhaust.

If I save for a totalled car my thoughts are I can recoup some money through part out..


Any ideas here?

No4Play

I have a running ls1 and t-56 with spec stage 2 clutch for sale out of our shop car, 2000 z28. 92k miles It's getting a new iron block nitrous motor and th400 so I have no need for it. Engine, trans, harness, ecu and front accesories for $4k. It's still in the car and I can send you video of it running. Only thing is you have to come pick it up in Rockwall...lol.

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Not bad... If I had 4k


Looks like plan to move around may.. garage dreaming!

jh_shady01

iTrader: (2)

Great build! Any updates??

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

I wish there was.

Big life changes lately. Thought I was going to up and move everything so I.started to put things back together. Then my daily car blew a head gasket(wrx) so I'm in process of fixing it and spending way too much money. I'll have to recover from that, then ill continue working on rear end. I'm thinking pads,rotors lines. Then ill start moving inwards from there with 28 spline axles,
rutrac,3.73s maybe, and girdle cover
Goals this year is to get bills straightened out so I can work on things like this more.

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Ok, at least something, I ordered rear ls1 hardlines from flynbye.

The ones I made fit were ugly and honestly, scary if I had to trust them.

I'm making sure quality is no 1 on this. I already had that plan, but saw it going south as I.got impatient.

Next I.need to save for TruTrac, 3.73 and install kit,axles.<big ticket

Mr.ChevyStroker

Loved the thread! Subscribed and its gonna look sick! A couple questions, is that a panhard bar that goes through the driveline tunnel? Or just a better stronger driveline shield? And im looking into gettina 1991 RS, should i beef up the suspension with new poly-urethane bushings? Or save for a kit an go from there? I'll keep lookin on your thread keep it up!

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

That bar is a torque arm. This controls the rotation of the axle during acceleration and deceleration. Mine is a beefed up version of the stock piece. Panhard is in the back.


Fist, what are your goals for the car? Start there.

Will it be mainly Street?
Road race?
Autocross?
Drag?
How do you want the ride?
Do you want to show off high end brands, or do you care as long as it works?
Going to compete?
If so, will your class allow it?

I am very leery of poly bushings, by design, they bind. I think they have a certain place in certain parts.

Also, depending on goals, kits may not be what you need. And a bunch of aftermarket parts may not flow together, just because of a big name does not mean it will work for you.

In my opinion, a properly planed car is the difference between an OK car and a great car.

Mr.ChevyStroker

Well For now, I'm a 19 old kid. SO after I get this car i'll be kinda broke for just a bit, but I wanna be able to drive it an get decent fuel mileage (DD...305 tbi, 5-spd) and be able to take it to a track, or autocross.For it now, lets say, I will have $3000 buckaroo's after summer. ($1500-2000 into the vehicle!!) What should I do to make I do to make up for the 170 hp 305. I want to get a pretty nice set of dougs headers, as for now, I will probably use the flowtech's i have laying around. So exhaust will be done, then It already has 245s all the way around so grip wont be an issue. Tbi spacer? obviously a higher ratio rear end, and then lets say I'll have 1600 left. Would I use that for a kit? Or buy other smaller better things? FEED ME YOUR KNOWLEDGE.

90camaro355rs

I Wanna put rear disks on my 90 rs, what year Camaro did you get yours from, will I also need to get the 4 disk proportioning valve off that same car?

Looks good makes me wanna tear my back apart and cover the bottom of the body like you did.

Mr.ChevyStroker

You shouldnt have to get the 4 disc proportioning valve should you? My friend with his 84 berlinetta swapped from 3.08s to 3.73s, and just changed the master cylinder..

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

most will say junk the 305. i have mixed feelings as that was my first motor. However, i would TRY and stay away from motor mods for now. i had hooker shorties,full 3inch and a flowmaster, k&n,msd coil and it was still a slow lo3. but reliable and it sounded good!

i would focus on handling right now, then save for a motor swap or similar. if you are not concerned much about your 1/4 et, then you CAN have fun with that motor.
I autocrossed my 91 tbi automatic and had a blast. The open diff was the worst part.

what is the ratio now? 3.43s seem to be ok for these cars. i would keep those until you have a motor that can use the (numaricly) higher gear. the posi sucks in our cars.

the 91 SHOULD have 28 spline axles, a decent upgrade is the posi(torsen) out of the ls1(98-02) cars. they usually don't cost a whole lot. cheaper than what i plan on(eaton/detrot trutrac) the 10 bold will be OK if you are easy on it and don't clutch drop it. Also, not a great drag rear. it WILL break. I will run mine because I don't plan to drag it.

koni yellow shocks and struts are on my shopping list. they are arguably the best shock/strut you can get without getting full custom. they are not cheap though. everyone who gets them says it's one of the best mods they have done. if you have stockers, they are prob due anyways.

t-top car? sfc(sub frame connectors) are a great idea. several brands out there, i went UMI.

i would stay away from things like tubular k member and a arms... for now, for a while. not needed yet

i think poly bushings are OK in FACTORY trailing arms,FACTORY panhard, FACTORY torque arms, a arms(i think del-a-lums are better) and sway bar endlinks and mounts.

I can get into details later why they are OK for factory things if you wish.

wonderbar is another good(cheap) part.

so BASED ON A AUTOCROSS NOT DRAG BASIS
my opinion in my half-awake response is
koni yellows $700-800
sfc $300
wonder bar, you can use a iroc factory one $50 used
i haven't priced them lately but a torsen for $200?

this is somewhere around 1550 not including installation or random popup things.


as far as recommendation, I basically would do what i'm doing. lol that's why i'm doing it.

there is several different things you can do. some do more than others. I just wish I listened when i was your age.. I was stuck on the non-important things. like hp goals.
I'm STILL learning every day. One reason my car is taking so long.

any other questions, just post and i'll try and help. Or you can just pm me.



as far as brakes go..... these i pulled off a 98 bird.(ls1 rears) my drums were taken off and these were put on this is not a direct swap. needed to modify flanges, brake lines, and cable. the valve should be changed to a disk style otherwise the rears will lock easy.
esp in a hard brake/turn

why would changing rear gears require a master cylinder swap? 3.08 to 3.73 has nothing to do with brakes?

Mr.ChevyStroker

What about the 1/4 et thing? And Even though its a world class would it not be able to hold a burnout with 3.73s in the back? That was a little confusing as well. Had a rough nights sleep so simpler terms would be more beneficail... And He had to change the master cylinder because he swapped a disc break 3.73 poi rear end and the old 3.08s were drum breaks** So itl be like about $1000-$1500 bucks, rear end, and then what were to other parts?

Mr.ChevyStroker

That was a cluster. To do a suspension beefing it will be like $1500ish for what exact parts? And shoulD I get a higher gear Posi rear end to make up for the slower motor? And see if you can simplify your message you had there, still confused. My apologies...

Formula 305

Nice work. And dayum that red body is clean.

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Formula, thanks. It's taking a while.




A 305 doesn't make much power to make a great pass. When you road race, power is less important. More about smooth and controlled. 3.73 gears are not bad. I would think that you would be over revving your motor for little gain though. If you had a higher rpm and hp motor to take advantage of it than maybe.


Hold a burnout?

Are you wanting to drag? The limited slip from a ls1(98-02 f body) you will need to find used. Or spend coin and buy one new.


Exact parts? Like this?
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=87&ModelID=9

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...ID=0&ModelID=9

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...roducts_id=125

Mr.ChevyStroker

Yes!! Should I also look at the panhard bars, lower c.arms, and the torque arm as well that are shown there below the wonder bar?

For the rear end, LSD is similar to Posi? just a few more rotations of the tire before the other one engages?

Should I just take advantage of a cheap dis break 3.73 rear end for $200ish since it will kinda help in making up for the little amount of power the 305 has? instead or look around for a lower gear ratio from a z28 either a 3.27 or a 3.42... I think 3.73s will do okay.? Thats really my choice though correct? Although all answer will be taking in and looked over!

I'm just trying to get an idea of how much i can spend and save for me to get all of these things for the bad girl. (Her name is confidential at the moment

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Lsd and post are basically same thing. Post is positive traction. Limited slip, means limited slip.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit...p_differential
That will help explain.


A higher gear will help. And yes, it's your decision. If it's a factory 5 speed, then it might already have 3.42


Where are you getting a $200 rear? If it has a working posi/limited slip, then it's not a bad deal. Older posi from 82-97 seem to be clutch style, which wear out and need rebuilt. The newer torsen(gear type) are not as bad. The gear type(like the Eaton trutrac) also have advantage of sending power to the wheel with more traction.


All the tubular stuff is nice, but not as important as shocks and Springs, I would do roto joint or rod end. Poly ends are less harsh, but bind as the suspension articulates

Mr.ChevyStroker

That website said it in about the most scientifical way possible if that is even a word. ;P

I think its got 3.08s according to the 1991 camaro web page at the bottom of the screen, heres the page....

https://www.thirdgen.org/1991-chevy-camaro Its a 1991 RS with the 5-speed, and the 305.

and here lemme post the link to the posi rear end as well.

Here is the first one i found, already with the sway bars!! But it is only 3.42s though, was hoping for a 3.73, but the manuals are the only ones that came with 3.42s and only 305s as well.
http://eugene.craigslist.org/pts/4366991485.html

http://eugene.craigslist.org/pts/4325170326.html I dont know the specs behind this one, guy doesn't specify but my guess is 3.23s.

And found one more with 3.73s but is drum breaks, (lazy foo!)

So Thats what is closest to me to me for a decent price, there is one more but i couldn't find the link and the guy i messaged about it doesnt really know how to like... Speak english properly? I dont know, maybe Ebay or something...

Mr.ChevyStroker

And arent 4th gens suppose to fit 3rd gens as well, look at what the information says here....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Camaro-Firebird-10-Bolt-Posi-Rear-End-3-73-Gears-w-Disc-Brakes-ABS-/291108170154?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3ACamaro&hash=item43c76629aa&vxp=mtr
Anyways, thats to much money for a rear end, i could go get one from a junkyard for less taht that. Maybe.

90camaro355rs

I was reading a thread on here in a complete build and it said that if you change your rear drum brakes to rear disk it was nec to get the 4 disc proportioning valve from the donor car as well, this is why I asked the question about the proportioning valve, Im not sure what makes the difference with a gear change? That statement makes no sense to me at all.

Mr.ChevyStroker

No,no,no. What i meant by the 3.73 part was the rear end that we swapped in was disc breaks, AND 3.73s, But we needed the master cyclinder that came from the donor car to fit the new(ish) rear end because we went from rear drum, to rear disc. The gear didn't have anything to do with it, I just included it in the answer for whatever reason....

Mr.ChevyStroker

But I could find a rear end that was drums and swap them over and do what 91rscamaro did!

Mr.ChevyStroker

http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...ct-prices.html


I could do that, and then get later model discs and swap em like i was saying...?

90camaro355rs

Brand new BRASS Proportioning Valve. This combination proportioning valve is for Disc/Disc applications. This valve performs all the necessary functions when using disc brakes in the front and disc brakes in the rear.

This valve will reduce braking pressure to the rear when necessary to prevent the brakes from locking up. It also distributes the brake pressure evenly so that each brake is working evenly. Finally, this valve offers the brake warning light switch to alert you if there is any failure in the braking system.

This valve is a great upgrade over the original and is a must when upgrading to 4-way disc brakes. This is a GM style valve, but will work on almost any Ford, Mopar, Chevy, or whatever, as long as you have the right fittings. This valve is solid brass, making it long lasting and heavy duty.

This is why I asked if I would need the 4 disk proportioning valve when I install rear disk brakes?

Mr.ChevyStroker

Hmmm. Well my friends Berlinetta does not have that most likely.... :P

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

OK I'll try to narrow this down. *Typing on a phone, *so forgive my grammar and autocorrect.*


It is recommended to have some sort of device to limit the amount of pressure to the rear when going from drum to disk. *I plan on putting an adjustable valve as I will track my car and will likely need to REDUCE the amount to the rear. *Our cars need very little bite in back or brake hop can happen. *You don t want that at the end of a straight doing 140mph. Many racers go with the lt1(93-97) style as they are smaller than mine(ls1 98-02) our third Gen disks are fine.


*The issue I see is the posi avaliable in our cars.*




Posi. *What does this mean? *This is my understanding. If you have power to both wheels, you have posi(traction). The terms get thrown around a lot that many forget the meaning. *Limited slip, posi, and locker are usually SAID to mean same thing.*


The research I did is that these three are usually called limited slip/posi/lsd

These don't truly lock, *allowing a LIMITED amount of slip between the axles. *In a nutshell, *the higher a bias ratio, *the more "locked up" *it will seem in a power applied turn.*


Clutch type, helical/gear type, and viscous*


Clutch.*


Clutch is what is in most of the limited slip versions of our cars. *Auburn and Eaton posi are examples of this. *They are rbuild able once hey get worn out. *These are the ones that need friction modifiers to work. *They can "lock up" *at a better bias ratio than the other types of limited slip due to changing the friction disks inside. These differentals are good, require maintance and can be built to work very well in a road race car or auto x. I recommend these to a drag car as the strength in these is usually higher compared to viscous and gear. *I also like that the clutch is like a safety. If you have massive power and lots of traction to only one tire, *the clutches will slip and fall. *As opposed to broken gears(internally, *not the ring an pinion) now this is in a prfect world of curse. I sheared my spider gears in my 9 bolt.*


Gear type.*

Eaton/Detroit trutrac and torsen are examples.*

These use a complex gear system to apply torque to the wheel with the most grip. *These make good road race differentals IMO. *They are low maintenance and most don't require a special oil. *However, *the bias ratio is not as good as some others. *There are models like the torsen t2r which uses a Clutch to preload the gears to help his. That makes a great rear but a big cost. They CAN be rebuilt but usually very pricy to do so. Torsen was available in the late ls1 F body's. They will work in our cars if you get or already have 28slpine axles.*


Viscous*



I'll be honest. *I don't know much, *other than it uses fluid pressure to work. *More it slips, I believe, the more pressure is applied to "lock up" *imports use these often. *My wrx has one in middle and one in back, *the Nissan 240 have them, *etc



Lockers.*


These do what they say, *they lock. *GM had a factory option on trucks(and on our camaros) *option code g80 Eaton locker. *This is they type that once a wheel spins a certain amount it literally locks both together as a whole. Even if a wheel is off the ground. (a torsen wouldn't work on this situation) these are great for off road. Some work in other ways but in a since it's the same *these are the ones that click as you turn as they lock and unlock for the inside and outside tire. *I don't recommend using these for drag or road race. *Why?*

Many don't work above a certain speed. *So after you launch, *they may be useless. *When they lock up, *they can be unpredictable. *Imagine driving no around a turn, *you floor it, *the inside tire spins, then boom, *you are locked up. *The rear of the car now doesn't want to turn, *it wants to go straight pushing you off the track. *Or giving you instant oversteer (drift) *that you may not expect.*



Then there is a spool, or mini spool


Not really applicable for this but I'll just say it is a permanently locked axle. *Drag, dirt track only




OK now that I have written an essay....*


I had a 305 automatic with the exhaust said previous.*


I autocrossed it a few times. *More re than anything, *the lack of posi infuriated me. Not necessarily the 3.08gears. *If I went a higher gear, *it would seem faster but I would be winding out the motor. *Imagine a low gear on a bike. *You pedal fast to get up a hill, *or to get a burst of speed. *Can you keep up with the "rpm" *of your legs? *Do you have the "horsepower" *to keep it up? No, *so you upshift. I see this same way. *You can do a gear swapif you want to. *Like me l, *I'll be going to a 3.73. I will have a 6 speed and a motor that will spin, *and make power, *at 6500. A 305 does not make power that high or like the *spin much past 5k.


A bolt in ls1 rear for 300 with disk brakes, 3.42,torsen posi seems like a inexpensive remedy. They are slightly wider! *Then add a third Gen disk proportioning valve. *If you go to ls1front brakes you can get an ls1 98-02 valve and be "worry free" different master cylinders come to play of you need more fluid moving, like a bigger caliper.*


Sub frame connectors are widely considered a must for our flimsy cars.*


Kong yellows will make it night and day difference in handling.*


If you lower your car, *you will mess with geometry of the suspension and many things come to play then. I can talk more about that of you want. *It might affect your exhaust choice.*



Poly bushings,*

These are plastic one direction bearings *in a since. I would only put them in things that only do that. *Like a arms. If put on tubular trailing arms, *they will bind. *If put in Stock trailing arms, *the arm will bend to compensate.*


Long story short, if you want to do something I would do rod end or rotojoint or similar.*



All of this has a book of info to explain so I tried to be a little brief to save both of us the trouble. *This can all be explained more if I know more and if you want.*


I also have a page on Facebook for my "club" *actually not sure what it is yet. *But I haven't done much on it in a while because it was going where I didn't want it. *This is what I enjoy, giving advice and helping others in the auto hobby.*

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Funda...14992688640341

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Why did it put all those *? Oh well

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

This is all my opinion and simplified information for ease of resding. I'm sure someone will correct me or argue.

Mr.ChevyStroker

So Iif I get a rear end that has breaks its a for certain I should get the proportioning valve to help that out, adn where could I find one besides ordering from a parts store, maybe another 3rg gen with a disc rear end?

I see by what you mean by winding it out and such...

For the traction part, no lockers.. But for posi, or limited slip or LSD What would be the most useful, Posi will the easier thing to come by, and I dont know many chevy rear ends with limited slip or LSD.... Thoughts? Was that hawks third gen rear end I decent idea to get it then do a disc break swap?

Mr.ChevyStroker

when I said breaks I meant disc breaks.. :P

TIMMYS89GTA

iTrader: (28)

No...you meant disc brakes...lol

Mr.ChevyStroker

Nice couple builds you have there!

bonylad

Apparently I am doing or what you are.......or your doing what I am.......looks like you have time and money though. Lol.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/memb...ad-titles.html

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Posi is limited slip. lsd stands for LIMITED SLIP dif.

Like I said, a fourth Gen rear end sounds like it would work for you. They go for 300 usually. Hawks will sell you one for 500. They have posi(limited slip) and disk brakes.


Couple builds? Taking about Facebook? You can post on there to get a faster response.
http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...-Calipers.html

Mr.ChevyStroker

Again, aren't they so very similar it doesn't matter? And would it have to be a 4th gen rear end after 1997? Since thats when they introduced the ls1's?

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

93-02 will work. 98 is when they introduced the torsen(gear type) Most had that after 98i believe.

Saying posi is kinda like saying you have a truck. Limited slip is like saying it's a half ton pickup. Posi is a general term.



A 93 to 02 rear is wider. Your wheels will be moved almost 2inches each side. If you do a search you can see

Mr.ChevyStroker

I can live with 2 inches i guess... I have to look out for the 3 channel vs. the 4 channel, since the 4 channel has the traction control, it has two brake lines instead of one line like the channel 3? My eventualy plan is to do a ls stroker, so ill probably end up buying a totaled 98-02 gm passanger vehicle and build it from there...

Mr.ChevyStroker

As of right now what the next thing you are gonna do to your camaro?

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

I'm thinking finishing my rear axle. So that would include, trutrac, 28spline axles, weld my brake line brackets on, and diff cover all at once. Then rotors, pads and paint calipers.

I gotta get my other car back, and knowing my luck something else will happen. Good news is got bills straightened out so overtime should be able to go to the car.