IROC-Turbo

I think this would be the right place to post this.So here goes.

Sorry guys,been tied up for a long while with RL issues.

But I'm back to update and ask for some help/advice.

Got my car back together enough to drive after a full teardown,paint and detail painting,and refreshing everything.

As for the update.My exterior painting didn't come out as desired as it has alot of orange peel in the clear.Going to wait until I sand it down and see if I can buff it out before I decide to reclear it.Then after that I'll paint the stripes on and put the decals on.

Here's where I need the help and advice.

Took it for a shakedown/test run and to get a sticker.Took it to a station and pulled it in.Walked my elderly friend to a seat.Heard cracking and popping noises and went over to find they stuck the floor jack under the fender bolt and had it in the air.Was still popping and cracking just sitting there until I made them set it down.

Bowed the fender up so much that it was laying over the edge of the hood.

Split the ground effect.

And massively screwed the gaps up.Real wide at the top.Fender/door centerline no where near close.

The owner/boss pulled it on a 4 post lift and took a crescent wrench and tryed folding the tab back down.Then pulled it off the lift and said "Sorry for your inconvenience" and walked off.

The gaps are still way off after thier attempt at repair,and the fender is rubbing the hood.

Take it straight to a good body shop and he tells me he will call them as he does alot of repair work for them and then call me when to bring the car down to repair it.

Thinking it'll be taken care off,I head on home and pull it back into the garage.Go to pop the hood to check fluids and find my hood is about 1" high at the driver side headlight and still sitting on the pass side fender.So I pulled the kick panel to find the pillar behind it bowed out at the base.Looked at the top of that pillar under the hood at the base of the windshield and it appears to be bowed up and the seam sealer that I can see down through there is split.

Took it back to the body shop to show him the extent and ask why he hadn't called me.Told me he had been trying to call the station but they wouldn't answer.And he wasn't inclined to look at the damage.Told me to go to the station and show them as thier insurance had its own claims adjuster.

Took it back to the station and ask for thier insurance carrier.The owner/boss told me he wasnt letting it go through the insurance and he will only speak to my lawyer.And didn't look at the car.

So what do I do?

I called a lawyer I've used in the past on other issues to see if he could handle this type of suit.But he was in court and failed to call me back.

Do I involve my insurance which is geico?Do I really have to get a lawyer for something like this?Isn't the shops insurance supposed to cover damages?Is refusing to tell me his insurance carrier legal?

I'm at a loss atm.

Will post pics when I find a lift to put it up on.

rusty vango

absolutely, do call a lawyer,take detailed pics, don't drive it till you have said lawyer contact the shop that damaged your car.as far as I know a commercial business that damages your property is responsible for the repair of said damages.i hope you get justice.

stealtht/a

iTrader: (1)

Yes, you will need a lawyer. Not going to be an easy fight to get them to pay.
You could also do it yourself and file a case in small claims. If you go that route, you will want to threaten them with it to see if you can get them to fold.
Threaten in this case means like a lawyer would, not like a ******* would. Dress expensively, put everything on paper, including exact amounts of damage and repair. Talk softly and impress with your diligence. You might get them to cave before the trial.
If not, small claims is fun if you are very prepared. Documents and photos of EVERYTHING. You will love watching the judge rip into a biz owner who shows up with poor documentation and his "word". Remember, he can't bring a lawyer. Small claims has gone up to 10000 in some states now. You can recoup lawyer consulting fees.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

This SUCKS! Not sure what your insurance situation is...what they will cover, what it will cost you, if your rates will go up. Sounds like it might fall to the lawyer.

I didn't know these cars were THAT particular about proper jacking points, though I do recall reading something along those lines in another thread...about a car that was for sale I think.

IROC-Turbo

If you remember that thread and could link it for me,it may have some info that would greatly help me in this.

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

I would imagine that YOUR Insurance Co.would take care of it then they would go after the shops insurance co. for their money.Let them fight it out,let them HIRE a Lawyer,that's what your paying them for.

IROC-Turbo

I only have liability coverage on my car.Does that matter in this case?

rusty vango

no, since it was not YOU that damaged your car. it was a rather "inept" employee of a business. they cant operate without insurance. and its on the owner of the place that jacked up your car,literally.

greenyone

iTrader: (1)

Call a local news channel that does stories about people getting screwed. Maybe the possibility of bad press will force them to make good.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

This is one of them. I can't seem to find the other at the moment. Will post it if I come across it.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body...gaps-ever.html

IROC-Turbo

Appreciate the link.

What worries me is calling geico and they end up raiseing my insurance.A claim is a claim to many companies.

IROC-Turbo

Here is the hood popped.You can see the offset.

IROC-Turbo

Inside pillar at floor.Sorry bad picture.The circle is the bulged area.

Inside door seal area.Red circle is another bulge and the red line is creased in the length down to the bulge area of the other pic.

IROC-Turbo

Fender alignment after thier attempt at repair by folding the tab back out.Well all pics are after thier attempt.Didn't have a way to take pics before they attempted it.I did not even give them permission to,and they didn't ask.

IROC-Turbo

Last ones till I find a lift.

Hard to see from the pics with reflections.But you can see how the gap closes at the rear.And the upclose pic shows how they are touching and how the fender is still above the hood.Might be able to slip a piece of paper between.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Who did your paint and body work? Would he be able to "testify" as to the condition of the car, the body gaps, etc. from before this happened?

IROC-Turbo

Me and a friend.Neighbors can attest to it though as they had been interested and posted all through it.They checked it over many times.

But it was all aligned.There has been quite a few that have checked it over before this happened.

Think i still have pics on the HDD of it aligned and together freshly painted.I'll search and see if I can.Know I have pics of it blown apart,lol.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I was just curious, in case insurance, lawyers, or whoever asks you to prove it wasn't like that when you took it in.

IROC-Turbo

I sure do,just looked and found them.And even with it in primer with the hood popped and you can plainly see its evenly open on both sides,and that fender in full alignment in same pic.

I'd forgotten I had them,I'm so glad you mentioned it.You may have just saved my bacon.I don't think I would've had as good a chance if you hadn't brought that up.

Now the big question.Since the damage is that extensive,can it even be repaired?

Oh and the excuse they had before they put it on the lift is that it was rusted out.When I get it on the lift to get some pics,I'll show you that magical disappearing rust.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Glad I could contribute something helpful. Do me a favor...tell my wife!

That's the best kind of rust to have! Sounds like the shop is already looking for ways to weasel out.

NowhereFast

It seems almost every one of these cars is jacked up from there at some point in time. You have to be a complete dolt to not notice the gaps of the car changing that drastically when you lift it; unfortunately there's a lot of those in the auto industry. Looks like your car was damaged to a degree worse than most.

I wish you luck in getting it fixed and paid for with the shop's money; things like this make my blood boil.

Ron U.S.M.C.

I had the exact thing happen to me.
The main difference was he actually made it right and had the crushed side skirting fixed. Can not fix the crushed material just beside the pinch weld.

When it was done I made a copy of this and gave it to him telling him he needed it to school his shop in the PROPER Third Gen lift points.



Maybe you can make a copy of this to give to your attorney to use in court.

IROC-Turbo

Thanks Ron.Could you tell me which book/manual that is from?Page?And if it pertains to all subframe cars or camaros in perticuler.

But it'll be a help either way.

IROC-Turbo

Something I've been thinking about and getting more concerned about.This will never be completely fixed,I'm trying to come to terms with that.

What concerns me now is the weakening of that area.I've read it causes premature rusting of that area.But should I be concerned with that weakened area starting to flex and bow and sag now that it's weakened.

Thoughts?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

That is probably the WORST damage I've seen from improper jacking.

Now, the FIRST problem is you didn't get a police report. Its a civil case, so the cop wouldn't have been happy to come out, but a police reports helps in this situation.

The second thing you should have done is call your insurance, your rates will ONLY go up if your insurance pays out, and many times it won't.

Third, you need to write to a local news station. The last thing a shop wants is bad press. That more than anything gets them to settle fast. Do NOT accept their first check if they do. Instead, have that car taken to a shop for an estimate.

Lastly, both of the above help if you go after them via Small Claims court.

If the firewall has bent, then its not a Simple fix. Its a big fix. Depending on the condition, age, and mileage of the car it may even be enough to total it out by an insurance company.

IROC-Turbo

Its bent enough that even the hatch on the drivers side is up over the quarter and sunk in on the Pass side.Hadn't noticed till it didn't want to shut.

The ball IS rolling finally.Don't really want to go into further detail until this is settled.Hope you can understand.

Trying to gather as much info and prepare my case fully.I think if its not totaled(and I dont want it totaled,you should see the work in it later)that it will need some type of outer(atleast) subframe connector to keep it from bouncing itself right back outa line as I drive it.

Suggestions on SFC's that will lock that area in place.Dont want it sagging or rising back up again as I drive it.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

This is going to sound callous. If the frame is twisted JUST from jacking, then there may be hidden issues with rot somewhere. The frame should NOT be twisting front to back from being improperly jacked. I can see a fender caving in, but to twist a frame like that requires significant force, or a weak frame. You should look at the car with a fine toothed comb. Inspect the front and rear frame rails. Also look along the rockers.

I can jack my car up from anywhere, and while yes, if I measure it there is some slight twisting, all of the doors will open/close no problem.

IROC-Turbo

My doors open and close fine as well,can tell a diff in pass side door now but barely.No floor board rust.Just one small patch of surface rust behind the cat.That I cleared over to keep from haveing to paint the whole underside.

The pics i'll post when this is over will show the full underside as well.

Do you lift yours slow or as fast as you can when you are jacking it where its not supposed to be?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I use a harbor freight steel jack with a 21" lift and rapid pump. It lifts the car pretty quick when I get a full swing.

The point is, the car SHOULD not twist front to back. It takes ALOT of force to do that. While a jack could exert that kind of force, it could only do so if the opposing sides were bolted down or restrained in some fashion, otherwise the other wheel on the same side would simply lift off the ground.

The fenders are weak, off the car they are as flimsy as posterboard.

There is a very real chance your car could be totaled if the frame is that weak. Thirdgens don't exactly have a good rating on a modern crash scale.

IROC-Turbo

I get what you are saying.Thats why I'm getting interested in SFC's if there is any point left.

Thing looks great underneath,no rot anywhere.Maybe a bad factory weld job or something?I remem seeing some camaros broke into at that area in a crash.This could be one of those.

I'd like to save it.Too much invested in it to let it be totaled.

Speed jacking letting the body bounce was all I could think of,because 10 secs after I stepped out of the door it was up in the air.Wheel/tire a few inches off the ground,and everything screwed up.I couldn't place a jack that quick!

Just waiting to see how the ball rolls.I appreciate the insight.I'll check the bottom over real well.

9D1BURD

I am late to the game, but any pictures of the underneath?

IROC-Turbo

No underneath pics atm.Was instructed not to drive it.

Adjuster has came.Waiting for news from the big wigs.

IROC-Turbo

Called today for an update.

Was told,it's still under investigation.

I'm more concerned right now about the future of the car.
Been religiously reading trying to find the right SFC to keep this damage from returning to haunt me down the road.And while it's on the frame machine,i guess,would be the best time to put them on?

I've read about every SFC thread on here that I could find.They usually get into a BS debate.

Would inners do the job?
Should I do outers instead since they atleast get close to the damaged area?
Or would the S&W kit be my best bet?

Would the outers provide a solid jack point so I wouldn't have to use 2 jacks(mini and normal)and squeeze under the nose to get the front wheel off the ground.

What about the S&W kit where the tube comes over to the pinchweld?

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I have UMIs and I jack the car up with them. You can actually put the jack in the middle and lift the entire side of the car up.

Citation X

Sorry to read about your car. I would also call the BBB and report it to them.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I would think that would be the ideal time to do it.

IROC-Turbo

Well,I was sent an offer by the insurance.I need some advice there but more on that later.

Here's some pics,working on it and after paint.You can see the way it was before the damage.Sorry it has not been on a lift yet to get the pic of the main area.But hopefully monday,hopefully.

This may take a bit

IROC-Turbo

Here's the hood.

IROC-Turbo

Body

IROC-Turbo

Outside

IROC-Turbo

Painted

IROC-Turbo

Curing

IROC-Turbo

Engine

IROC-Turbo

Side

IROC-Turbo

These pics are of it together.It set for months,had medical probs.Painting the mirrors and drip edges,locks and stuff when these photos taken.

But ready for a shakedown run when those bolted on.

After the shakedown proved ok,I was going to put the good interior in it,perfect dash,recovered seats and headliner,etc...

But,This is it before it got jacked up and damaged.You can see it's aligned.

It's still sits this way waiting on repair,if possible.More on that later,as I need some advise,insight.

IROC-Turbo

Look over the dust,lol

IROC-Turbo

Now the part I need help and advise on.

The insurance sent me a 2k offer for the damage and amp replacement that got fried when amp cable got gouged when jacked up($400 amp).

So I took it around to get an "actual" cost to repair.Noone will touch it.Well one shop said they would.Will take weeks to get it in as they have a list for the machine.Would have to tell them I'm ready,then wait until my turn came up.No definate time frame.No estimate on anything as "every frame pulls different".No paint estimate,nothing.Was informed I could not enter the shop under any circumstances,could not check status,could not oversee/watch the unibody being straightened on the machine,check repair methods,nor could they weld on the SFC's as it had to be a new part only(even though the SFC's would be new,still refused),nothing.But did say the SFC's are now a must as (like others here said) the metal is now weakened and on our roads the damage would show itself again.

To be honest,I don't like this approach.Wait till its completely back together,then we'll let you see it.I'm not a trusting guy when it comes to any repair to my vehicles,mechanical or otherwise.Thats why I saved up for the lift and tire machines.So this don't set well with me at all.I would've signed a waiver if needed.

My only other option is the local Vocational school.They have a unibody machine.Teacher says he was just instructing the students on this very thing a week ago.BUT,quickest he can get it in is some time after christmas break.Told me to check back then.So no real time frame there.No quote on the unibody.But did say any paint work was 1k minumum.Did not ask about SFC install.

So I'm boned.I'm out my car atleast another month if I let the "you can't see it" guys do it.And 4 months plus waiting on the Voca school.And it's already been a month.

So the car is tieing up my garage.Cant leave it outside as the hatch is up off the seal and rain blows in.My truck's tranny is makeing a weird metallic sound,but it has 292k on it.I'm trying to use it as little as possible,incase of an emergency.And it was going into the garage for the same type of teardown/rebuild as soon as the car was done.Now I can't do that either.

They marked on the offer estimate to refer to the repair shop as to time for rental car.There is no way they will cover me a rental for 4+ months.I doubt even a month.

So I could really use some insight and advice here.

Oh and the car in question is an 88 g92 hardtop IROC-z with 90k on the clock.

rusty vango

as much as you don't want to hear this;; I would take the 2 k , buy yourself another 3rd gen of your choice. and use that one for parts to fix up the one you buy. there are many rust free and un bent ones to be had still. THEN I would employ a good attorney and sue the socks off of them. for the balance of the money you are out of.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

An offer is just that, an OFFER. You don't have to accept the first offer you get, you can ask for more. They will always lowball you.

Start grabbing receipts, and estimate your labor, typical rates are $90-$120/hr for body. How many hours are into that paint job? Add in the cars value before hand.

Come up with a number, go back to the insurance company and say its not enough. Haggle with them.

But here is the thing, you SHOULD total the car. A frame that weak is a death trap. If my GTA had a frame that weak I'd part it out immediately.

The Low estimate for my GTA is $3000, and thats assuming its factory stock and poor condition on average, it doesn't take into account the upgraded parts (aka, the complete T56 swap, or the heads/cam/rebuilt short block……..). Realistically I could ask about 5k on the high side. Its got the mechanicals, but the paint isn't perfect, and the interior is worn. Plus being a modified car it puts me into a niche market anyways so i'd have to find the right buyer.

Go back to the INS company, haggle on the price. Then part the car out if they haven't totalled it.

IROC-Turbo

I can't total it.Nor can I junk it.That man in the pics is my best friend.We bought the car together 15 years ago.Have put 2k miles a year on it.We both enjoyed it this whole time.Me and him rebuilt it.He is in his 70's and has lost 50 pounds or so this year,with eating 6-8 times a day.During the build my heart gave out,variant angina,then attacks,then surgery.

My health wont take it and neither will his.If we try to tear it down to move into another,it may not be together in time.

So I understand and can agree with what you are saying,but that's not a viable option.Seeing his face during that shakedown run,made the work and troubles worth it.But his face now,you can see he's hurt more than I am.

So for now,it needs to be put back in working order,for a slow cruiser atleast.And hold together as long as it needs to.

Hope you can understand that.