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Originally posted by 36ASedan ... However, there is not a lot of Regional competition so it was not as big an accomplishment as it sounds. I live less than an hour away from HPT so if I can't do it now I probably never will.
Besides HPT, we regularly run at Hallet, Gateway in St. Louis, Memphis, and Mid-America in Iowa.
Not sure how many cars you get with SCCA, but NASA is definitely growing. The NASA Midwest region (http://www.nasamidwest.com/) is entering it's second year and the car count for American Iron (where your car would be if you got the spec Toyos) is likely going to be 10+ cars on average if I had to take a guess. It'll probably be closer to 20 at combined Midwest and OH/IN events.
I started open tracking with NASA last year and hopefully I'll be ready to get my competition license before the start of next year. It might be worth checking it out when we go to Mid-America in June. Hopefully, I'll be there crewing for a few guys in AI, but if work comes through with some overtime I might try to bring the car
Some of the tracks we run are probably longer tow east on average, but I think the only thing east of Memphis is Mid-Ohio for the new NASA Nationals
BTW, there's nothing political in this, it would just be cool to get another competitor out there
__________________ 3rd gen Firechicken. Midwest region American Iron #134
You'll be glad to hear that I've learned of another rotor I can use that is close to the C5 in size so I'll keep you posted, I just have to find a vendor in the US. I can't tell which rotor you have by the pic, no way for me to tell what's behind the wheel.
I did find a US vendor for these rotors I mentioned above but they're $200 each so I have to wait a bit for my play money account to get up a bit in order to buy a set of them. They would allow me to use a one piece rotor and a Wilwood caliper and a HD hub without the need for any front wheel spacers, a really good setup and a REALLY good rotor, nice and thick like a Baer rotor is....which reminds me that I need to get those pictures up.
They're DBA rotors, made in Austrailia, and the rotors are spec'd for Holden Monaro which is why they're hard to find in the US...we don't have any over here. I found a vendor in CA that can get them but again, they're a bit pricey for one piece rotors but DBA rotors are well worth it IMO. I just need a little time.
Just a quick update since I have to head off to the track again this morning:
First, let me say that if you are wondering at all if this Wilwood setup has more stopping power than a stock 1LE setup then the answer is a HUGE yes! I took the car out for testing at Heartland Park Topeka (HPT) Friday. Not only was I going to get to try out the new brake package but HPT is all new and looks awesome so I was pumped.
I went out the first session with no other goals but to bed the new pads/rotors in. I decided to go with Wilwood Polymatrix "B" compund pads. Everything went well with just a couple laps of heating the brakes up.
The next session was the first real test of the package. I ran them as hard as I could while still getting use to the new quirks of the fresh HPT track. I was VERY impressed with the stopping power. I am however picking up a vibration under braking once the brakes start to get hot and it gets progressively worse as the brake temps go up. Still great braking though. NEVER any brake fade whatsoever and although I have some decent cooling ducts setup they aren't some new wonder in F-body brake cooling. TBH, it's almost ridiculous how much stopping power it has compared to before. I even considered unhooking the vacuum hose to the booster but thought that might not be the best idea as of right now. I think my best bet is to play with pad compounds and see what happens.
The brake vibration will also need to be addressed. Although it's not ridiculous, it's there and I do not like it. Ed, do you think switching to a floating rotor/hat setup would help with this? Can I get a floating setup for this? Let me know your thoughts on that.
One last thing, these brakes are LOUD! I mean GT1 car loud. Once they heat up, they squeal like a REAL race brake setup. I'm sure there are things that could be done to quiet them for street use, but with race pads and everything going together dry, they howl like the race brakes I dreamed I'd have.
I scratched for the Regional race this weekend so I only tested on Friday. Scratching made it possible for me to go race the National at Hallett next weekend so I'll try to give another report after that.
-Jeff
BTW - I sent some pics to Ed after the install. Maybe he can get them posted.
That's awsume news about the Wilwoods and their performance.
How did they balance out with the IIRC stock 1 piston rear brakes?
DM
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Ed................you going to have some "brake goodies" at the Autofair in Charlotte this week?
Ok, just got back from the track (crew chief today ).
DM, I have always had a LOT of rear brake dialed out of my car. Many AS guys do the same. Brake hop under treshold braking has always been an issue for me. I will admit that I am still running the stock torque arm. Most of the top level guys are running some sorta 3rd link which seems to permanently eliminate the brake hop. I have not had much luck finding a 3rd link setup that will work with the Dana 44 that I am running. I have a prototype design of my own that is essentially a 1/4" steel plate rear cover with some 3rd link uprights welded to it. Very hard to explain but geometrically I believe it would work well. I do not, however, think that the ten tiny bolts that hold this 25 lb. cover on would be up to the task with the added load of the integral 3rd link. Getting a redesign in the works is long over do, especially now that I should be able to dial in more rear brake. There's always the option of switching to a 9" too .
One thing I don't think I mentioned earlier was brake pad/rotor wear. After I finished all my sessions Friday, I took a good look at the brakes to help determine what the vibration might be and to monitor brake pad/rotor wear. After inspection, there was barely if any pad or rotor wear. No more grooves in the rotors after one session. No more uneven pad wear. No more new pads per race. Even after only one good track day, I firmly believe that my main goal of cutting my long term brake consumables cost will be no problem. In the past, I would change rotors and pads almost every race and at least every other. From what I found this weekend with this setup, I'd bet a large some of money that I will be able to get most of this year out of one set of rotors and pads. Of course, I may be swapping pads a few times early on to find which compound/s work the best for me, but for no other reason. It's amazing what the right tool/s for the job can do .
I have been running my CMC 3rd gen with the rear brake completely dialed out and I also use some street type Performance Friction pads back there. Using a race pad I got brake hop. I am also running a Dana 44 with no aftermarket torque arm (not legal in CMC anyway).
__________________ '84 Trans-Am CMC Race Car SOLD!
'91 Formula WS6 TPI 5spd street car
'94 TA 2006 CMC car
'97 TA Purdy Car
Will the breaks squeal during day to day street use, or only during race conditions? I want to put them on my street car. Please let us know if you get the vibration fixed. Then I'll probably buy the set-up.
From my experience with Wilwood setups on other vehicles. Race pads make noise on day to day use. Normal pads will have a different compound to eliminate squeal. If you are using a Wilwood caliper it is seriously like 10 minutes to change the brake pads. All the cars I work on with Wilwoods have 2 pad setups. 1 set for the race track. 1 set normal for daily driving, they still stop better than OEM brake pads. Technically normal can stop better daily driving, some race pads don't start really working well till you get some heat into them.
I was just wondering if the vibration/squealing got fixed.
wgripp,
For me, the squeal will never go away - not with the race pads I am using at least. As far at the vibration goes, it seems to have gotten better by itself. Not quite sure what is going on there but I just ran the Regional and National races at MAM and the vibration was pretty much non-existent.
I did notice something this weekend though. The brake pads I've been running since day one are starting to taper. This is probably to be expected since I am not running split size caliper pistons and because of the size of the brakes. They just changed our rule package again and opened it up to any 4-piston caliper that uses a single brake line. This opens up our caliper options so I may look at an alternative in the future. For now, I'm happy with the performance of this Wilwood setup.
As far as the performance goes, it is very nice to have consistent brakes throughout a race. Before, with the PBR's, braking ability and reliability would change throughout the course of the race. Also, not having to put on new pads for every race weekend has been wonderful. I've got three weekends on the pads/rotors now and I've probably used less than 1/8 of the pad.
One thing I should mention - I fear that I may not have bedded the pads in optimally the first time out with them. I am getting some grooves in the rotors (especially the LH one). A friend who has done quite a bit of research and development with a very similar setup believes it is because the pads were not bedded correctly. Wilwood recommends quite a few more brake applications at light, medium, and heavy than I did the first time out so he's probably accurate in his assessment. Probably not a big deal to bed the pads perfectly for street use, but for race conditions it's a must.
The issues I am having are minor as compared to before. Even with the small issues I am having, I definitely feel that upgrading was worth every penny and have no regrets. It has allowed me to focus on my driving more since I do not have to worry about whether I'll have brakes in the braking zones or not.
I will not be back out on the track until the 2nd weekend of June for our first National race at the newly repaved Heartland Park Topeka. I am going to focus on getting the car perfect by then since there should be a bunch of cars showing up due to the fact that the Runoffs are moving there this year. It should be a blast!
wgripp,
For me, the squeal will never go away - not with the race pads I am using at least. As far at the vibration goes, it seems to have gotten better by itself. Not quite sure what is going on there but I just ran the Regional and National races at MAM and the vibration was pretty much non-existent.
I did notice something this weekend though. The brake pads I've been running since day one are starting to taper. This is probably to be expected since I am not running split size caliper pistons and because of the size of the brakes. They just changed our rule package again and opened it up to any 4-piston caliper that uses a single brake line. This opens up our caliper options so I may look at an alternative in the future. For now, I'm happy with the performance of this Wilwood setup.
As far as the performance goes, it is very nice to have consistent brakes throughout a race. Before, with the PBR's, braking ability and reliability would change throughout the course of the race. Also, not having to put on new pads for every race weekend has been wonderful. I've got three weekends on the pads/rotors now and I've probably used less than 1/8 of the pad.
One thing I should mention - I fear that I may not have bedded the pads in optimally the first time out with them. I am getting some grooves in the rotors (especially the LH one). A friend who has done quite a bit of research and development with a very similar setup believes it is because the pads were not bedded correctly. Wilwood recommends quite a few more brake applications at light, medium, and heavy than I did the first time out so he's probably accurate in his assessment. Probably not a big deal to bed the pads perfectly for street use, but for race conditions it's a must.
The issues I am having are minor as compared to before. Even with the small issues I am having, I definitely feel that upgrading was worth every penny and have no regrets. It has allowed me to focus on my driving more since I do not have to worry about whether I'll have brakes in the braking zones or not.
I will not be back out on the track until the 2nd weekend of June for our first National race at the newly repaved Heartland Park Topeka. I am going to focus on getting the car perfect by then since there should be a bunch of cars showing up due to the fact that the Runoffs are moving there this year. It should be a blast!
-Jeff
We've done some testing with different pads on our GT1 Corvette. Really, the Wilwood compounds are very poor. Non of the top GT1, Trans-Am { RIP } or Nextel Cup will even touch them. Likely the vibration problem is because of the Wilwood pads and improper bedding procedures. You may also have gotten Cementite deposits.
We used to use the latest PFC componds such as 01 and 03....but found a MUCH better option. Mintex F series racing pads. The F1R series is unbelievably good. Impossible to fade ( we did some testing with cooling purposely closed off, burned off all the (Edit)Tempilaq rotor temperature paint (red) ...That's 1,250+ f , extremely high retardation with good modulation, VERY easy on rotors....but most incredible...they work when nearly stone cold!!!
Try them. For serious racing you'll never use WilWood or PFC again:
For rears I'm using the F6R's which give a nice balance at the back. I like to rotate the car with the rear brakes so I run quite a bit of rear brake bias.
Interestingly enough, brake hop is not a big issue at track days...although it does raise it's ugly head at Hillclimbs. At Hillclimbs I will run a full turn more bias to the back because of weight distribution going up hills and it rotates the car for tight hairpins. Also at hillclimbs we run fairly low operating temps. The rears ( F6R's) actually come up to temp a bit before the fronts. I may go to F1R's all around just to get the same warm-up curve.
Track days pose no problem after the first few laps, as both front and rear pads will be up to operating range.
I should note that I run a little bit different setup on my rear A-Arms than most. Sacrificing a bit of Anti-squat for a bit more roll understeer ( I have my car set-up very much " On the nose". Some rear roll understeer is a must in high speed sweepers with my setup) Of course this also lessons brake hop.
Some pads are just bloody awefull when used on the rear. Too grabby. Hawk racing compunds are very " grabby" IMHO. You want a nice smooth application and modulation. The Mintex pads work well in this situation.
[quote=Chickenman35]Yep, Performance Enhancements is the place to go. For our cars I'd go straight to the F1R's for the front. What are you allowed for rear brakes?
QUOTE]
We are limited to the stock 1LE setup on the rear. TBH, I dial all the brake I can to the front (because of brake hop) and I do not have to replace the rear pads very often. It's been so long I don't even recall what is currently on the rear. I'd have to check my notes.
I will call PE and try a set of the F1R's as you suggest. Just to be sure, the F4R's description specifically mentions being perfect for club racing with cars like ours. Your opinion is to go straight the the F1R's regardless correct?
One last thing, since my current setup was installed all new and it appears that because of that and not so optimal bedding procedures that I have created one or more of the problems that were discussed in the StopTech article you referenced, what are your thoughts on the best way to go about switching to a different pad compound/manufacturer? I must also note that my current rotors have even been grooved some which I'm told by Wilwood is definitely not good. They even have mentioned that, although I may have not bedded the brakes perfectly, with this setup I should NEVER groove rotors. They want to see some pics of my rotors and setup. Anyway, what would you recommend for a switch-over procedure?
Yep, Performance Enhancements is the place to go. For our cars I'd go straight to the F1R's for the front. What are you allowed for rear brakes?
QUOTE]
We are limited to the stock 1LE setup on the rear. TBH, I dial all the brake I can to the front (because of brake hop) and I do not have to replace the rear pads very often. It's been so long I don't even recall what is currently on the rear. I'd have to check my notes.
I will call PE and try a set of the F1R's as you suggest. Just to be sure, the F4R's description specifically mentions being perfect for club racing with cars like ours. Your opinion is to go straight the the F1R's regardless correct?
One last thing, since my current setup was installed all new and it appears that because of that and not so optimal bedding procedures that I have created one or more of the problems that were discussed in the StopTech article you referenced, what are your thoughts on the best way to go about switching to a different pad compound/manufacturer? I must also note that my current rotors have even been grooved some which I'm told by Wilwood is definitely not good. They even have mentioned that, although I may have not bedded the brakes perfectly, with this setup I should NEVER groove rotors. They want to see some pics of my rotors and setup. Anyway, what would you recommend for a switch-over procedure?
Your input is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
-Jeff
Yes...I'd go directly to the F1R's, especially if you run circuits that are hard on brakes. Our cars are heavy enough and fast enough to warrant them. Throw in some not so optimal cooling to the mix and the temp range will be right up there. The operating range of the F1R's is so broad that ther is no reason to use them.
F4R's state that they are suitable for Club and light vehicle application. You missed that line. Our cars are hardly light. Although we have done some testing with F4's on a heavy car...the F1R's were superior. You may want to tune the back brakes with these...although I don't believe that you can get any of the Mintex compounds to fit the rear PBR's ( when we last checked ). These are mainline Racing pads and the PBR is not considered a mainline pads.
Regarding rotors prep. You'll need new rotors definately. If the rotors are grooved then they are hooped. As the Mintex pads rely heavily on the adherence principle of retardation, a rotor should be virgin and free of other RACE compound deposits before bedding. (That doesn't mean that you can't swap from a street pads to a Race pad such as Mintex. Street pads don't get up to the temps required for molecular transfer...Race pads do).
Your rotors are comprimised so they should be replaced.
Do your rules allow you to run "real" racing rotors? IE: Wilwood, Coleman, AP etc. Rotors intended for racing have a much higher quality alloy than street rotors. That is reflected in the price. I get most of my parts from Pitstop USA. Check then out. They have some of the best prices around.
Bedding procedures. PE offers a prebedding procedure using their brake dynos. BTW, Pe does a LOT of work for the Nextel Cup teams. Not by accident that Mintex chose their North American headquarters to be in North Carolina.. rather than a location such as California.
If you don't get the pre-bedded option....you MUST not take shortcuts. Normally you would spent a entire practice session ( 20 minutes or so ) bedding the pads. You must get them up to the material transfer rate by repeated brake applications......don't drag the brakes. Instructions are include with pads or call Mintex. Rotor must be conditioned as well. No different than any other modern pad....although I must say, once the pads are bedded, they seem to switch over on my dual purpose Street\Hillclimb\Track Day\ Autocross car very fast.
I think you will be very, very pleased by these pads. We can't get over how well they stop, from stone could to freakishly hot.....and yet are so easy on the rotors.
Last edited by Chickenman35; 05-11-2006 at 10:57 AM.
Great info Chickenman! Have you tried Carbotechs? CMC is using these now. So far I like them.
What would you use for street pads on this brake set-up we are talking about here? Thanks!
Ah...now there's the bind. I haven't found anything suitable.
Currently I'm using WilWood Coldstoppers, on the recommendation of a company that shall remain nameless. It's not WilWood BTW. Absolute crap pads. Do not use them period. They have zero stopping ability when the rotors get wet. Absolutely none till they clean the rotors off. Never seen a pad this bad.
Dean seems to like Stillens...but they don't make then for Superlites last time I checked. The new WilWood BP10's look interesting, but I finally settled on Hawk HPS pads. We'll see how that goes.
I believe that EB Miller ships all his street use set-ups with the HPS pads. Plaese correct me if I'm wrong.
I just got off the phone with PE. Talked to Ashley. He had the pads I need in stock and gave me a tip on a delay valve for the rear to maybe help with brake hop. Very nice, helpful guy. I'm really excited now!
-Jeff
BTW - The pads (even bedded) were cheaper than the Wilwoods I've been buying - go figure!
Ah...now there's the bind. I haven't found anything suitable.
Currently I'm using WilWood Coldstoppers, on the recommendation of a company that shall remain nameless. It's not WilWood BTW. Absolute crap pads. Do not use them period. They have zero stopping ability when the rotors get wet. Absolutely none till they clean the rotors off. Never seen a pad this bad.
Dean seems to like Stillens...but they don't make then for Superlites last time I checked. The new WilWood BP10's look interesting, but I finally settled on Hawk HPS pads. We'll see how that goes.
I believe that EB Miller ships all his street use set-ups with the HPS pads. Plaese correct me if I'm wrong.
I believe you are correct but Mr. Miller will have the final word. I know those will work for me.
I just got off the phone with PE. Talked to Ashley. He had the pads I need in stock and gave me a tip on a delay valve for the rear to maybe help with brake hop. Very nice, helpful guy. I'm really excited now!
-Jeff
BTW - The pads (even bedded) were cheaper than the Wilwoods I've been buying - go figure!
If you're excited now.... wait till you try them out!!
PE is a great company to deal with. VERY helpfull.
Last edited by Chickenman35; 05-11-2006 at 04:32 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Dean seems to like Stillens...but they don't make then for Superlites last time I checked. The new WilWood BP10's look interesting, but I finally settled on Hawk HPS pads. We'll see how that goes.
I believe that EB Miller ships all his street use set-ups with the HPS pads. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I have normally supplied HPS pads but may go to the BP10s now as 1)they are a bit cheaper and therefore will lower the kit price a bit, and 2)I've been told by reputable sources that they are very good for street cars. As you all know I don't run these brakes but any input on pad selection is greatly appreciated.
As of right now, no. A LOT of our Canadian members have expressed interest but I have not gotten back to them yet for a number of reasons, one being that I'm backed up at the moment. I'm happy to answer any questions on the setups. Also, I plan on making a larger 13" setup along this same line, it seems fairly popular.
I did finally get the vibration to go away by turning the rotors. I believe my problem was coming from rotor runout.
I've also switched from the Wilwood pads to the Mintex F1R pads and I'm MUCH happier with them. I am happy with the setup and if it wasn't for the fact that I personally did not like the way the Wilwood pads were working I would still be on the same set of pads this year after many races. Before, I would have used a set of pads per race at $230/set. The Mintex cost $135 and I guarantee I would not need more than two sets per season and that would be more than enough. It's also very nice to no longer worry about whether I'll have brakes at the end of the race or not .
I was measuring .014" of runout on the left side. This was after a couple races so I'm not sure if it was there to start with at first or not Ed. Since I was developing some pretty major grooves in the rotors already, a successful bedding procedure was also in question. When I switched to the Mintex pads, I trued the rotors up in the lathe and made sure I really bed the Mintex pads well. All has been fine since.
Ed, have you heard from any other AS racers on this setup? Just curious. I've told several people about it.
Ed, have you heard from any other AS racers on this setup? Just curious. I've told several people about it.
-Jeff
I've had a few inquiries on them and am working on one of these setups right now, only difference from your setup is that this one has stainless steel brackets. Other than that, nothing. I'm a bit suprised considering the braking power they offer for the GTA wheels.
I'm trying to figure out if I use a setup like this for next year (based on money) or if I throw a modified C4HD setup on the since I already own most of the parts.
Thanks again
__________________ 3rd gen Firechicken. Midwest region American Iron #134
I fab up custom 3 piece lines since these calipers don't use a banjo bolt, it's a threaded fitting. LMK which direction you will go, depending on what HD parts you have I can possibly take them off your hands.
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or Nextel Cup will even touch them. Likely the vibration problem is because of the Wilwood pads and improper bedding procedures. You may also have gotten Cementite deposits.
If you're excited now.... wait till you try them out!! 
