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I'm finally getting around to being able to test out the new rear brakes Ed sent me a year ago with my new engine (LS1/4L60e). I went to try the parking brake...and it's sorely lacking.
Before I swapped, the parking brake did not work as it should have. The car had set up for a year or two - and the adjuster in the tunnel was as tight as it could go (no slack left)...and it still wouldn't hold the car (barely moved, but enough to fail me!). So - I bought the PBR upgrade kit from ebMiller and also started my engine swap.
Engine is running now. The parking brake is still just as bad as it was before it seems. We've tightened the adjustment bolt in the tunnel as far as it will go, tightened the free travel screws on the rear calipers (which seemed to help a little, but I wouldn't figure I'd need to do this with new brakes like these), and bled the entire system with new fluid coming out each bleeder.
We put the car on jackstands, removed the rear wheels, and did the above adjustments. Using the regular brake pedal, we can stop the rotors from turning for a couple seconds - then they seem to slip and the rotor begins turning. Applying the brake, then the parking brake and letting off the brake just lets the rotor turn (albeit slightly slowed). Lastly, pulling the parking brake while the rotor is turning with no brake applied somewhat slows the rotor but does not stop it.
I'm more than a bit dismayed at the situation...moreso because I've spent alot of $$$ on this car since starting the brake swap a year ago (engine swap, etc.) and can't even get it inspected to drive it anywhere.
The only thing I can think of is that the parking brake cables I recieved with the kit were too long...but that doesn't answer why the rotor doesn't stop with the normal brake.
Is there something I'm missing here? What more affects the parking brake than the level, cables, caliper, and brake pad? Please help.
I'm desperate here folks...I've got an LS1 swapped thirdgen and can't drive it on the road due to a parking brake.
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Last edited by 3.1EyeCandy; 10-25-2009 at 02:39 PM.
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I have the same ebrake issue.....I purchased the 12" pbr upgrade from Ed and I'm very pleased with it except for the ebrake cables. I don't have an adjustment in the tunnel, I have the self adjusting ebrake which doesn't help cause the cables are too long. Hopefully my mechanic can shorten them somehow.
I ordered my cables from CarQuest (P/N BRK 8788, 1st design, 1434 mm). RockAuto shows the 1st design available in 90, 91, and 92 cars. The second design (1460 mm) in 91 and 92. This longer cable was designed for cars with no adjustment provision.
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
I would think that Ed sent me the right cables, but I did not measure them before putting them on... Any other ideas? Are the cables and the free travel screws the only pieces at work for the parking brake?
I ordered my cables from CarQuest (P/N BRK 8788, 1st design, 1434 mm). RockAuto shows the 1st design available in 90, 91, and 92 cars. The second design (1460 mm) in 91 and 92. This longer cable was designed for cars with no adjustment provision.
JamesC
BTW - just called my local carquest and they couldn't get that part # from the warehouse or the factory...
I'm not sold that this is the issue, as I had the free travel screws pretty far pushed in just to get to the point where I needed to overadjust my parking brake adjuster bolt. But I'm willing to buy cables if that's what can get me on the road.
Update: RockAuto has them listed as ACDELCO 18P1104
Last edited by 3.1EyeCandy; 08-03-2009 at 01:49 PM.
I had this problem too. I had to break down and get a mechanic to cut and crimp them for me. This solution lasted about a month before the crimp came off. I'm about to give up on the parking break ever working on this car, because the proper part number from NAPA always gets me the same cables that are an inch too long in the transmission tunnel. (I have the same PBR upgrade kit).
__________________
80,000 Original Miles (getting up there now!)
Mods: 180 Thermostat, 200 degree fan switch, Spohn Wonder Bar, Spohn Subframe Connectors, Spohn LCA's, Spohn Adj. Panhard Bar, Lee's Mfg 12:1 Steering Box, Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump.
Hopefully Ed can help us out here, I am at my wits end.
__________________
80,000 Original Miles (getting up there now!)
Mods: 180 Thermostat, 200 degree fan switch, Spohn Wonder Bar, Spohn Subframe Connectors, Spohn LCA's, Spohn Adj. Panhard Bar, Lee's Mfg 12:1 Steering Box, Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump.
One thing I noticed is that the cables that I keep getting from Napa seem too short, they aren't long enough to go over the pumpkin guides. Yours, from the pictures I've seen seem to be long enough to do that. Maybe they are packing the wrong part?
__________________
80,000 Original Miles (getting up there now!)
Mods: 180 Thermostat, 200 degree fan switch, Spohn Wonder Bar, Spohn Subframe Connectors, Spohn LCA's, Spohn Adj. Panhard Bar, Lee's Mfg 12:1 Steering Box, Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump.
One thing I noticed is that the cables that I keep getting from Napa seem too short, they aren't long enough to go over the pumpkin guides. Yours, from the pictures I've seen seem to be long enough to do that. Maybe they are packing the wrong part?
Those are fourthgen guides, IIRC (shoot, I don't know, perhaps that's why my cables work). The real guide is a simple "S" hook, which would allow more room, I believe.
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
New cables should ship on the 11th, I'll test and report back. I also ordered some cable stops from www.controlcables.com in case the new set is still too long. I suppose the only way to get some better rear braking from the car beyond the parking brake is to do the entire bleeding dance again and look into an adjustable prop. valve...
I'll post up what I come up with. Thanks for the motivation fellas.
I'm sorry to hear about the issues, fellas. I have put a lot of time into the rear kits to make them as close to bolt in and fault proof as I can and somehow there are still some issues, and the late cars have no provision for any adjustment. I will be installing the same disc upgrade on my own 1991 RS within the next two weeks and will use the same cables. Should I have the same issues, I'll likely have new cable sets made to eliminate these issues and would gladly replace the cables that will not work for you, LMK.
No hard feelings Ed - I think your stuff is top notch. These cars have inherent flaws in the parking brake. Thanks for being patient and helping the rest of us out
Has anybody ever used cable stops to shorten their parking brake cables? The ones I bought are too small...so before I order bigger ones I'd kindof like to know if its been done before.
Cable stops won't be able to hold the pressure. I just had these cables (that were too long) cut and crimped AND tac welded, but one of the barrel ends came off anyway a few days ago. I hope there is a fix for this soon.
__________________
80,000 Original Miles (getting up there now!)
Mods: 180 Thermostat, 200 degree fan switch, Spohn Wonder Bar, Spohn Subframe Connectors, Spohn LCA's, Spohn Adj. Panhard Bar, Lee's Mfg 12:1 Steering Box, Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump.
Another post I have got a response about this issue.....for a quick fix (perhaps to pass inspection)....DON'T cut the end off the cable. Instead, crimp on cable stops before the end and they should hold.....if you cut the end off and try to crimp on new ones they"ll just fail. This guy says it's more about where the mounts are located that hold the sheathed end of the cable in the tunnel before the equalizer. Make sense?
But how do you get the cable stop over the cable with the original crimp in the way?
__________________
80,000 Original Miles (getting up there now!)
Mods: 180 Thermostat, 200 degree fan switch, Spohn Wonder Bar, Spohn Subframe Connectors, Spohn LCA's, Spohn Adj. Panhard Bar, Lee's Mfg 12:1 Steering Box, Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump.
I got the AC Delco parking brake lines (which i like better than the raybestos) from Rockauto. I measured them against the Raybestos and there was about 1/2 inch difference in the amount of cable outside the hard plastic sheath. I thought maybe this would make the difference.
The slightly shorter cables helped in the trans tunnel where I didn't have to adjust as far. However, I do not believe they helped my parking brake situation at all.
Basically what you've got is the lever inside the car and the amount of lever travel at each caliper. I achieved the same amount of lever travel by adjusting the trans tunnel piece and the free-travel screws on the calipers on BOTH sets of parking brake cables. And I believe the amount of lever travel I'm achieving is a fantastic amount...
But the parking brake still doesn't work. I've got an engine swap (ls1) and a non-accurate tach - so I'm leading toward a high idle causing the parking brake to not hold. Here's the theory:
Engine idles high enough to cause the stall to fully engage (it's a stock stall, not sure the rpm). This applies the same amount of pressure to the rear wheels as you goosing the throttle when the parking brake is applied. Obviously the car will move and then come to a quick stop. This, I believe, is the best these cars will ever achieve. Sad, but true.
My next step is to get with my tuner next weekend to adjust the idle speed as low as I can take it and see if it helps. If my parking brake does not work after that adjustment, my car is for sale. I'm going to lose alot of $$$, and way more time, but I just can't see keeping a car I can't drive legally.
I'll post up more when I get with my tuner. If you're in the Texas area and have a legitimate offer on an ls1-swapped GTA with too much to list, PM me.
If you're getting al ot of travel I would assume your cables are too loose still. You should be able to mechanically feel the pressure you're applying on the brakes.
That right there is enough to keep the car from moving around and I've got to tug fairly hard on it to get it that far and I'm a pretty big guy. I have the old style e-brake handle that I bought specifically for my 89 PBR calipers and I had to adjust them to fit but it was easy as pie. It was just a matter of getting the correct handle.
My handle travel is good. I was referring to the lever travel on the caliper. I've got an original 87 parking brake lever, the adjuster in the trans, and a set of 1990 correct-length AC Delco parking brake cables. These hook to some of Ed's PBR calipers. On those calipers, I'm pulling the lever nearly all the way back to the cable mount.
I'm hopeful adjusting my idle down will fix the problem. I'm not sure if I could bring myself to tear this car down and sell everything for...the parking brake.
I tried both sets of cables from Napa, the first was too long the second fit. (part # is near the end of the referenced thread).
My parking break easily holds the car still at idle and I still have 2" of adjustment left in front.
If you want, since you are local, I could stop by and take a look sometime. It may not do any good, but you never know, I might notice something different between your setup and mine.
__________________ If it breaks, make it stronger.
If it doesn't, try harder.
First (Official) Antique 3rd-Gen. 27 years and counting!
Well you've got 1990 cables for a pre 1990 e-brake handle. Get the right e-brake handle.
... I believe the 1990 cables I bought are the correct length as described everywhere on this site. If my lever travel at the caliper is right, how would changing the parking brake handle change things?
Last edited by 3.1EyeCandy; 08-29-2009 at 10:42 PM.
I tried both sets of cables from Napa, the first was too long the second fit. (part # is near the end of the referenced thread).
My parking break easily holds the car still at idle and I still have 2" of adjustment left in front.
If you want, since you are local, I could stop by and take a look sometime. It may not do any good, but you never know, I might notice something different between your setup and mine.
I may take you up on it. Thanks! I had ARD tune the idle down today to where it should be. The parking break still doesn't hold. I believe I'm back at square one now and still scratching my head.
The lever on the calipers is moving a good amount and the cable is pulling there as it should. I think that leaves me with something wrong with the caliper/rotor/rear pads. These were all new from Ed, but I've nowhere else to look. Ed? Anyone? Am I on the right track?
I'm scratching my head too. My swap was straightforward and I've experienced no problems. Have you tried driving the car a couple of miles or so, then trying the e-brake?
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
I'm scratching my head too. My swap was straightforward and I've experienced no problems. Have you tried driving the car a couple of miles or so, then trying the e-brake?
JamesC
That's one thing I haven't done. Would this affect the caliper in some way? I've kept from driving it much due to the lack of inspection.
... I believe the 1990 cables I bought are the correct length as described everywhere on this site. If my lever travel at the caliper is right, how would changing the parking brake handle change things?
I would get the correct handle and throw the stock cables back on there. I dont know what else they might have changed with the calipers or even exactly how it works. But I've got 89 PBR's on my car and my 92 handle did not work. I put an early model E-brake handle in the car and now it works perfectly. There you go. Proven solution to an expected problem.
In short, I think you're running circles around the real problem and the real problem is your e-brake handle works differently.
Maybe in theory the correct cables and the new style handle should work, I dont know, but given my experience the solution is obvious. All it took was bolting in my new handle and the e-brake worked perfectly. A good friend of mine has made me suspicious of Mr MIller's business practices, but I seriously doubt he's finding PBR calipers that dont have working e-brakes on them, or ones that use bizarre exotic mechanisms. These calipers came off cars just like ours and use e-brakes just like ours. We have two different e-brakes.
Last edited by InfernalVortex; 09-01-2009 at 02:50 AM.
I appreciate the advice vortex, and it won't be long before I thoroughly inspect the handle, but I believe you're misunderstanding what I've got:
1987(old style) handle
1987(old style) adjuster in the tranny tunnel
pbr caliper kit on a 9 bolt - making it just like an 89
correct length GM cables (measured myself)
now, there is a lever that is pulled by the cable on each caliper. No matter what cables or handle you have, it needs to moveand stay put when you pull the handle inside the car. I am getting nearly full pull on this caliper attached lever, enough that the spring on the cable is nearly fully compressed.
One of two things is happening for this all to not work... Either that lever is extending back out after the handle in the car is pulled, or the caliper is not applying enough force/friction on the rotor to stop it from moving. These calipers sat for a year before I used them, and I haven't driven the car a full mile since I could actually drive it.
Swapping handles to an earlier style (which is what I have) or putting junkyard used cables of the same length on wouldn't change how much that little lever on each caliper moves.
I appreciate the advice vortex, and it won't be long before I thoroughly inspect the handle, but I believe you're misunderstanding what I've got:
1987(old style) handle
1987(old style) adjuster in the tranny tunnel
pbr caliper kit on a 9 bolt - making it just like an 89
correct length GM cables (measured myself)
now, there is a lever that is pulled by the cable on each caliper. No matter what cables or handle you have, it needs to moveand stay put when you pull the handle inside the car. I am getting nearly full pull on this caliper attached lever, enough that the spring on the cable is nearly fully compressed.
One of two things is happening for this all to not work... Either that lever is extending back out after the handle in the car is pulled, or the caliper is not applying enough force/friction on the rotor to stop it from moving. These calipers sat for a year before I used them, and I haven't driven the car a full mile since I could actually drive it.
Swapping handles to an earlier style (which is what I have) or putting junkyard used cables of the same length on wouldn't change how much that little lever on each caliper moves.
You're right, I definitely misunderstood.
Maybe you need the new handle then? Maybe the PBR's you have are from a 90-92 car? Not really sure why it would make a difference at this point, though. Seems like you've got it figured out pretty well.
Last edited by InfernalVortex; 09-02-2009 at 04:59 AM.
I am getting nearly full pull on this caliper attached lever, enough that the spring on the cable is nearly fully compressed.
If the lever on the caliper IS returning to the "released" position. Then your calipers are out of adjustment. There is too much room between your rotor and your pads. The parking brake lever (on the caliper) should meet considerable resistance before the spring is fully compressed.
I still suspect that a little driving might fix it. My question is, how does the caliper adjustment mechanism work and why hasn't your adjusted yet?
3.1, you mention above that you tightened the free travel screw (According to the link below, free travel should only be attempted if the caliper has been taken apart. Should the calipers be reman, they've been refurbished and require adjustment). Did you do this to spec? If not, check out posts 2, 4, and 5 of the following link, which I found helpful:
If the lever on the caliper IS returning to the "released" position. Then your calipers are out of adjustment. There is too much room between your rotor and your pads. The parking brake lever (on the caliper) should meet considerable resistance before the spring is fully compressed.
I still suspect that a little driving might fix it. My question is, how does the caliper adjustment mechanism work and why hasn't your adjusted yet?
By just looking at the caliper lever travel, it doesn't appear to move..but I haven't done any measurements to confirm. I am getting considerable resistance in the cabin - both before and after adjusting the free travel screws - which really only resulted in the lever on the caliper moving a different amount. This leads me to think that something within the caliper is limiting the amount of force I can apply to the rotor. Perhaps some heavy braking will loosen it up? I'm going to try that first and then take off my rotors and see how much the caliper squeezes together. Perhaps we installed the calipers incorrectly or they just need some use..
my stock (11"?)97' IROC pbrs are doing the same thing in my 88'
I think there is an internal adjustment that is prone to sticking or maby they need to be cleaned? Mine sat for a year or so also. Now that my C5 kit is in I need to adress the rears before it drives again
Got the car back from the shop today - they couldn't figure it out either. I went and took a bunch of pictures to show what is going on thinking one of you could chime in/check yours and maybe we'll make some progress. What I found the most intersting is that the little pin that is pushed in by the parking brake lever on the caliper isn't really being pushed in - it's being pushed over (and not pushing in both sides). The pictures will explain better than I can.
The full album is located here. They'll appear in higher res there.
Both sides look to be doing the same thing, so I'll show the right side as the pics came out better.
Parking brake handle travel:
Caliper Lever not pulled:
Caliper lever pulled:
Parking brake not applied - notice caliper lever and pin:
Parking brake applied - notice pin now...at an angle?
One more. This is the left side with the PB applied. I got very minimal additional piston extension. It also looks like the side with the pin is pushed further than the other...
I have been having the same issue with my EB Miller rear PBR setup. I have driven the car for about 300 miles since I installed this setup and now with my inspection expired since last month, I am going to tear into it tomorrow and try to figure out what is the issue. I'll post during the day and if I come up with a solution,I'll let you know. As far as the brake handle,that should not be an issue. A E-brake lever simply pulls and locks the cables. I feel it's in the caliper.
I suggested playing with the free travel setting above (post #35), especially on rebuilt calipers--and if the caliper is in question, then free travel should be addressed, I'd think.
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Absolutely try the free travel fix. That's what was wrong with mine, before my cables broke.
__________________
80,000 Original Miles (getting up there now!)
Mods: 180 Thermostat, 200 degree fan switch, Spohn Wonder Bar, Spohn Subframe Connectors, Spohn LCA's, Spohn Adj. Panhard Bar, Lee's Mfg 12:1 Steering Box, Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump.
To elaborate, before i adjusted the free travel screw, it was adjusted to the point that the little piston which actuates the parking brake collar never made contact. The solution was as easy as backing the screw out.
__________________
80,000 Original Miles (getting up there now!)
Mods: 180 Thermostat, 200 degree fan switch, Spohn Wonder Bar, Spohn Subframe Connectors, Spohn LCA's, Spohn Adj. Panhard Bar, Lee's Mfg 12:1 Steering Box, Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump.
We've adjusted it inward without success, but not backing it further out. I'm still trying to fully understand how the free travel screw plays into this.... If I can get some help tomorrow, I'll adjust them out (and eventually to spec - but I should be able to feel some progress as I adjust) it's too bad you have to adjust the tunnel bolt when you adjust the free travel.
Went to tackle this brake issue and here is what I found. First of all when I pulled the rear wheels I noticed that the wear area on the rotor was wider on the pass. side than the drivers side. Pic.#1 drivers,Pic#2 pass. So the drivers side pad is not getting full contact. Have no idea why. So I decided to work on the travel adjustment. 3 bent and broken 3mm. allen head wrenches and sockets and still cannot loosen the screw. Don't know what kind of adhesive that's used on it,but it works too well. So at this point I am going to contact Ed and see where to go from here. If I continue to fight this thing,you will see me on the 6:00 news this evening. LOL
