vsixtoy

Finally. And under the X-mas tree awaiting install in a month when I have a few days off for the holidays.

I was able to have the lines made this week and drilled & pressed the longer ARP studs into place.

p.s. My wife is nuts, the tree has been up for a week already.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Very impressive Dean...out of my range but VERY nice. Thanks for all the work on the threads and stuff.

Ed

PS: A week already? Holy crap!

vsixtoy

Thank you Ed.

She put the tree up the same day the Whitehouse did theirs I guess. I live with a holiday lunatic.

Dewey316

those are looking great Dean. Can't wait to hear a report once they are on.

(I guess we have found one of the few perks of being single. I don't even have to put up a tree at all. )

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Back in the Nav', we used to make beer can trees with different brands of beer...Oh what fun it is to drink....


Ed

Dewey316

Hey Ed... Hit me up on AOL. I need to ask a couple of brake questions.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

What's your IM?

Ed

Dewey316

Dewey90rs I don't see you on though.

JeffW

wow she has a tree up already and that cool i'm surpised she let you put your brakes on the carpet?

they look nice

nolanr0413

so how much did they cost my brakes cost me 600 to do , z06 brakes but they fit under 18s and are only wimpy 2 pistons. If you had top do you have all the stuff to make another set if someone wanted to buy them ?

vsixtoy

I'm about $2550 total for everything, but got deals on a few of the little parts and brake lines. Should have been another aprox $150 if I paid normal price for those. This price includes all the custom brackets and all shipping costs also- every dime from start to finish including the "3" spindles I used- oops. My Aluminum hubs alone were $500 shipped to me.

These are entirely a one-off build. I will never duplicate them for anyone so I documented the build on them for that reason so everyone intereseted has an idea what goes into such a custom build (timewise also-playing the waiting game on parts)

Everything on these brakes are designed for maximum lightness AND maximum size under a stock 16" IROC "Rear" rim on the front. This added about $300 total to the price alone- but its what I wanted. Putting and IROC "front" on it would have cost me less (I want the option to always rotate my tires without dismounting them from the rims so I run 4 "rears" rims.) When you look at the picture, note that EVERYTHING is aluminum except for the spindle, pads, and silver part of the 2pc rotor. It is very light compared to a 13" Vette setup on the same 3rdgen spindles and the pads are twice as thick for lifespan.

I have noted before that if one were to try and SOMEWHAT duplicate this with steel hubs, lug mount 4 piston calipers (instead of radial mount 6 pistons), steel brackets, and standard cut 1pc rotors- it could be done for about $800-$1000 without the spindles (just use the ones on the car currently)

Chickenman35

Very impressive Dean!! Thanks for all the effort in posting the build with pics.

Excuse my foggy memory...but what are your running on the rear? I had to to a Superlite 4 pot caliper ( 1.375" pistons ) on the rear when I built my front setup ( Superlite 4 pot with 1.75" piston. 12" x1.375" frt rotors. 1LE rear rotors ) to get a decent brake balance. Standard PBR calipers didn't have enough clamping force.

Edit: Spelling

vsixtoy

To be very basic, I will have Wilwoods LS1 front and rear "SRP" big brake kits on this car. The rears were 95% bolt-on (other than the E-brake cables) but the fronts were not obvoiusly.

They are a balaced set for the heavy 4th gen LS1's and are basically exactly like the "roadrace kit" without the slotted GT rotors or the full-race compound pads.

Fronts: 6piston SL-6 calipers, 12.90x1.25 rotors

Rear: 4piston Dynalite calipers, 12.20x.81 rotors

contactpatch

vsixtoy,
please list the
caliper piston diameters, of your setup.
I am curious how you worked out the
front - rear bias.

vsixtoy

Contactpatch, I have already stated above that they are a matched set for the 4th gens
They were designed by Wilwood to be a matched front and rear for the LS1 Camaros. The LS1's are much heavier cars than ours (especially mine being a V6) so they should do wonders on this car no problem when it comes to longevity of pad & rotor life.

The front and rear bias should be very close to begin with since the cars are very close design and the addition of a Wilwood adjustable prop valve (in cockpit) is in the near future plans, but my not be necessary at all because Wilwood has already somewhat taylored the kits to work together. To get the max out of any brake setup (even the stock GM systems) an adjustable prop valve will help anything stop better.

Front calipers and piston sizes:
Billet Superlite SL-6 (6 piston)
1.62"/1.12"/1.12"

Rear calipers and piston sizes:
FDL (4 piston)
1.38"/1.38"

Edit: A side note, the 4 piston Superlites that are commonly used (1.75"/1.75") actually have a slightly higher clamping force than the 6 pistons. The six pistons however work smoother(better pedal feel, or sweet spot when hard on them) and dont get the pad taper as they wear as much as the 4 pistons do.

vsixtoy

hear are the total piston surface area for the Wilwood calipers.

Superlite 4 piston 1.75/1.75= 9.60 sq inches
Superlite 6 piston 1.62/1.12/1.12= 8.04 sq inches
FDL 4 pistons 1.38/1.38= 5.98 sq inches

It is very common to match the 1.75/1.75 fronts with 1.38/1.38 rears

Note that the figures above are clamping pressure on the pads, not pad surface area on the rotors. This too makes a difference as to how much pad surface makes contact. The pistons deliver the pressure onto the back side of the pads so the front side of the pads can make fricton. The 6 pistons make a more evenly disributed pad to rotors comtact pressure even though the clamping force is not as high- it actually works better with less pressure. The 4 pistons will lock easier due to uneven pad heat.

Dr G

Dean, congratulations on getting everything finished! I can't wait to hear your comments after installation and testing.

Best of luck! I'm sure it will all have been worth it.

Also, to save you being asked the same questions time and time again I've posted links below to some of your other brake system threads:-

Wilwood 6pot Front setup-Part2
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=261639

A little teaser- 6pot/13" under a 16" Iroc rim
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=245273

And for the rears:-
Wilwood Rear Kit (match for Spohn's Front "Bigbrake" Kit
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=216339

cam-

Very nice!

CaysE

Whoa! That is damn impressive. Do you know the rotational weight difference?

vsixtoy

Thank you G for posting those links- it will hopefully same questions from any that are unaware of the other posts.

CaysE, I know definately the rototion weight will be higher do to larger diameter centrificall force of the 13" compared to the current 10.5 iI have now. How much, I will probably never know unless I sat down and did some major figuring between the two. There is 1.25" of outer material that even though is lighter in the center, is further outward in rotation diameter.

I do plan to weight both setups side by side to see how much lighter the Wiwood are in "unsprung weight". "Rotation weight" is higher I think, but unspung weight I gaurantee is lower. I will post these in the near future. Those 10.5" stock 1pc front rotors are heavy and the Iron Delco-Morraine calipers are certainly heavier also. New spindles and brackets are lighter than the material I cut off the stock spindle + removal of backing plate.

gbeaird

iTrader: (1)

I guess you would be right about the increased rotational mass. Hmmm, I was all set to try to piece together a similar setup for our CP Firebird, but really need a reduced rotational mass. Then again, if the unsprung weight is much better, this may be the route to go.

Any updates? As stated above, we have a 85 CP Firebird that still has the factory brakes. I was interested in something lighter, but at least as good, if not better, and was (and still am) considering a 1LE setup. This is an interesting setup, especially with it fitting under 16" wheels. I am very interested in a parts list. Thanks.

Gene Beaird
86 SVO, G Stock, unless the Firebird is broken,
92 B4C 1LE Camaro, CP Rain car,
85 Firebird, CP
Pearland, Texas

CaysE

You'd be much better off reducing rotational mass elsewhere if you're going to run 13" rotors. I was just wondering how much different the two are. Get yourself a lighter driveshaft, flywheel, trans internals, wheels, etc.

Dewey316

I would assume on a CP car, he already has lightweight peices else where.

The real question is.... will the extra braking power, make up for the weight penalty on your average 50sec auto-x run. If you are fading the stockers near the end of a run, then chances are having the extra braking will.

LottaBallsCamaro

Why spend $2550 to fit brakes under a 16" wheel? Why didn't you just buy a set of lightweight 17's?

VILeninDM

I missed this originally. Dean, did you say there was a write up somewhere?

This is very impressive :hail: :hail:

vsixtoy

All the links are posted by DrG 9 posts above this one. Those links show much info for this or any other build anyone is intereted in. I have posted many caculation critical info in getting proper offsets and radius for brackets.

LottaBalls, Why not? The IROC rims are beautiful. The suspension is designed from the factory to ride best with a 16" rim with 25.7" tall tire- The larger sidewall gives the smoothness needed for ride quality. Plenty of 200+mph cars built that run 15" rims still, the suspensions are designed for that. Larger rims are again more rotation mass to try and stop. 17" very lightweight rims are fine for racing and yes better than the slightly heavier IROC rims, but not as good looking and much much more expensive. Mostly I like the car to look stock from the outside until you look a little closer. So much more fun when it appears stock when you blow the doors off of an expensive import around a corner then let them catch back up for a look see at what just walked on their "so called" superior german engineering, etc.

Should I continue, Or are those sufficiant reasons enough?
Why does anyone do anything- its what they like and prefer.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I'm bringing this one back to the top.

Since it seems quite a few people enjoyed this project of his, then got banned days before the install, I got emailed a picture.

I doubt he will mind me posting it

As of last contact with him, he has about 100 miles on this setup, still properly wearing them in before he can beat on them. He is quite pleased with performance, where it positions the tires, and everything bolted up fine. No hitting or rubbing.

George

Nice looking setup. That guy had a lot of competition driving experiance and good tech information for anyone who actually wanted to learn about setting up their own car properly - too bad he's gone.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Dean's banned again? Great...


Ed

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Yes, atleast this time the person that pissed him off got banned too.

George

Too bad he doesn't post on frrax - it's a good site if you use the car for competition stuff.

DuronClocker

iTrader: (1)

I was curious to hear from Dean (hey taht's my name!) himself on the project. I always enjoyed reading his posts. Maybe we should start a petition to get him back!

RTFC

Weight comparison "new" stock to "new" Wilwoods each side is closer to 4 lbs savings on each wheel

MrDude_1

**thinks to self... hmm, im still here. ** lol just kiddin.. link to banning thread?




roughly how much of that weight do you think is saved from cutting the spindle?

RTFC

I would "guess" about 1 lb each, but then I regained at least half that with the aluminum bracket safety nuts and tiewire. The real savings is in the alum hubs, alum hats, and alum calipers

I put a few front suspension pictures of the setup on the cardomain site.

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/518752/6

I opted to just weld my stock A-arms for now and replaced the bushings and balljoints. I need find a set of discontinued Belltech drop spindles before I can run Spohns coilover kit on this car at the height I want it. I have no clearance to run the plate support system with the suspension travel zone I have now. The top of my strut body would be 1/4" max from grounding out on the top spring cup just at stagnant ride height. I actully think it would be touching with no gap at all. You can see the dirt marks on the strut shaft where it travels into the underneath of the strut mount right now.

RTFC

Here's a shot showing the the offset clearance- note the camber I run make the top tire stay tucked a bit more. I have spaced the rears out the same, just hadden't yet in the picture.

The front offset is exact to the fatory 1LE brake setup

EDIT: this picture makes my car look like the body is beat to crap- its just bad quality picture and shadowing- for the record it is in very good shape.

RTFC

Well, I juust got on them for the first time very hard, I have them run in pretty good now and bedded.

All I can say is when your car is stopping faster than your body in the seat (no BS), its then time for some 5 pt harnesses. These things are smooth and predicatable and you can pedal them hard. I don't want to lock them so I am laying into them what I would guess is about 85-90% and have to say that the pedal pressure feel great. I thought I might have to go to a larger bore MC but it doesn't feel like it yet. I want to give it about a 1000miles to get the feel down while braking through corners to see what kind of pad runout if any I am getting- basically what to see if the predictabilty of pedal pressure remains constant enough.

The bais also feels very good with the 1LE prop valve in it. If anything, it may build a little more and actually have too much front pressure if they still seat more. I am running a roadrace front pad and a street autoX rear so if that ends up the case, I will go back to the RR rear compound. Time will tell.

cam-

RTFC What are you running for rear brakes? Also you say you are running the 1LE P valve and I am curious as to what master cyl you are using? Thanks

RTFC

The 13th post from the top of this thread:
[Quote from Vsixtoy:
"To be very basic, I will have Wilwoods LS1 front and rear "SRP" big brake kits on this car. The rears were 95% bolt-on (other than the E-brake cables) but the fronts were not obvoiusly.

They are a balaced set for the heavy 4th gen LS1's and are basically exactly like the "roadrace kit" without the slotted GT rotors or the full-race compound pads.

Fronts: 6piston SL-6 calipers, 12.90x1.25 rotors

Rear: 4piston Dynalite calipers, 12.20x.81 rotors "]

I have a J50 MC, J65(1LE) Prop valve and the very best combined wet and dry traction braking performance street tires on the market to test everything with

cam-

Thanks Haha I have read this post but did not notice/remember your comments on the master and vavle combo obviously so appologies there. Have you tried any other p valves? I too run the J65 valve and feel it works pretty well but want to hear from someone who has tried different combos which is why I asked.


Are you refering to those GSD3's I can see in those pics? If so perhaps you should check out what I had to say about them in this thread...

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...highlight=gsd3

Not to highjack this cool thread but I am curious as to what other brands have you tried to reach such a conclusion? I read your prior post about tire pressure and could not agree with you more but there are faaarr better performing tires than GSD3's for dry or wet performance IMO. In fact practically all other max performance tires I have run in days gone by were better than the GSD3 for overall performance.

RTFC

Now you are starting to understand why they need to rbe ran at the higher PSI. They are a 51MAX psi tire and I run the fronts at 49psi/ rears at 46.5. I also have a lighter weight car than you. SIdewall do have a slight no-mans-land feel to them on turn-in that you get used to after learning them- they don't go away grip wise, they just feel like they do momentally. My suspension has no give at all laterally so this is not a problem for me

I have owned or driven on just about every tire known to man- even various runflats which are harsh and hrd compound. I have owned numerous sets of 'A' and 'R' racing rubber also. I have a very close friend that owns a 2005 SL500 that trusts me very much and lets me kiss that around a curvy road in Newport Beach several times in the past few months- I have even had the pleasure to ride in an SLR McClaren Mercedes!( guy bought it for $850,000- A Safeway heir- just put his Ferarri around a tree a few months back though) Both with Mich Pilots- good tires, but I still like the Goodyears and Firehawks much better. The piolts are not forgiving an predictable, and lookout for sudden dampness.

I will buy another set if nothing else comes out when I need tires for this car next. The last three sets were Firehawks- one SZ50 and two sets of SZ50EP's- before that was numerous BFG comp T/a's with the hard as rock sidewalls (old school tires that were hard to change from that feel, but once I did, I got used to it and was able to lock up the suspension a little more and retain straight line comfort. I like the new high psi technology) Finally, The high speed transitioning on these tires is great. There is no "lack of feel" when transitioning above 60mph on these- They have a very comforting high speed control going into freeway transitions at sometimes speeds of 100+mph (15fwy south to 91fwy east for example here in So.Calif) I don't just like them- I trust them greatly. The biggest safety feature of the F1 GS-D3's is the solid tread block that circufrences the center tire without a break. This retains tortional loading contact to the sidewall when cornering at high speeds and acts much more like a solid tread racing slick- this is what gives the unease or "soft sidewall" feel at lower speeds, but higher speed bring the angle of attack into play slolidly and predictably- that one tread design helps keep that tire from coming apart also (delamination)

cam-

I run 51 psi in the front and 48 in the rear. You are correct that the hold in corners once loaded is impressive but its getting there thats scary. The Yokohama A520 is the best performing tire I have run to date and I have run most all of them. Even better cornering grip then the GSD3 along with unmatched straight line traction and no slop very predictable and a real "go where you point it" kind of tire. Amazing. Made my car feel more like a go cart. AS far as the GSD3 getting better with speed? I feel thats when they are showing the true colors and get even scarier. The heave that the car does now is spooky feeling at anything over 100mph. Not predictable and not confidence inspiring at all.

Just so you don't feel alone you should know that you are not the only guy who seeks the ultimate handling third gen and has put all his efforts into building one

You post up good info though

RTFC

I don't recall ever driving on that tire. I may have but I can not find any pictures of the tread design. It appears they are discontinued? Yoko's best tire is the AVS Sport- they in test comparisons held up fairly decent against the Bridge P-02's in dry but suffer in wet. The Mich pilots, Firehawks, Bridgestone P-02's (Now P-03's) and Goodyear GS-D3's all outperform the AVS Sport especially in the wet.

?? Any test specs or availiability- I am always curious for a better tire that will fit the 245/50-16 arena

cam-

I would have gladly purchased them again if they still made them. The AVS sport is just too import looking for my flavour so I have yet to try them. I find tire reviews and comparisons very peculiar at best because I too thought the GSD3 was going to be killer from all the grand reviews they received on tirerack but now I feel that most people just really don't know what "high performance" means because they never get out to the edge of the envelope to see for themselves. All I can say with certainty is when I stuffed the go pedal down with the A520's wet or dry they never spun until half life. NEVER. I could slip an LT4 clutch before those tires would break loose the first season I ran them. To tell you the truth I would never have believed it had I not experienced it first hand. I have some used but still good 8" wrinkle wall slicks that did not hook as hard as these things did. The icing for me though was not just the straight line grip but the incredible cornering feel and overall grip. I can probably drive almost as fast on the GoodYears but at ten times the effort and much more white knuckled than with the A520 so reviews aside those are my experiences. Those tires made driving fast effortless and boat loads of fun. They were a bit of a "too late" tire in the sense that when you found the edge it got ugly real fast but that edge was waaaay out there. Too make things worse the Goodyears go up in smoke for three gears from standing no matter how much I warm them up. One member on LS1tech managed a 1.4 60' on the A520 to give you some idea of their grip. Most guys running Nitto's cannot get anywhere near that. There were downsides to them though. Treadwear sucked which was no surprise and they ride was far worse than the Goodyears and the noise! Eee gads man they were brutal at low speeds. But as far as performance goes they were the best I have run yet. I have run Michelin pilot Sports on a M5 and P Zeros on a 930T and on third gens I have run P Zero slicks, All forms of BFG's, GSC's and in older days many Gatorbacks and others not worth mentioning. The only tires of the ones I listed the the GSC's out performed in the handling dept. were the prior Goodyears and the BFG's. I purchased them because I had hoped that seeing as they were designed in Germany and designed to compete with the Michelin, Bridgestone, Yokohama, etc and with the reviews being so great and low price to boot ( Canadian joke )

What can I say I guess you really do get what you pay for with tires.

There is a local tire/wheel place where I bought the Yok's from on his advice who sets up a lot of nice rides here. He tried to talk me out of the Goodyear and said he will not even sell them which is why I thought he was bashing them so I bought them elsewhere for obvious price reasons and the great reviews they had generated. What a disappointment Anyway i'm stuck with them now but for someone as interested in cornering as you there are much improvements for you to have in the tire dept. Just my Goodyears? never again.

RTFC

Tireracks 1-10 scale survey is just costumer imput. You'll find 10"s on low end passenger tires. The only way to judge a tires performance is actually track times wet and dry and slolam & braking times and feet. Tire rack do have ggod shootout test reveiws on direct comparisons between major players in a given catagory. Check out the Gs-D3's on the lighter cars (BMW330I, Lexus 430 touring cars etc.) and you'll see they shine on track times and unmatched on wet braking.

I buy tires for all around max safety, not just dry cornering. There is no other tire that will beat the GS-D3 at all the marks combined. My wife and kid drive this car- I like the exceptional wet cornering and braking.

The nose of a V6 Camro handles night and day different from the nose of a V8 Camaro. I am much lighter and much much more responsive so it is much less noticiable on my car. I gaurantee you will not see any street car on street tires turn-in as fast as my V6 does- this car steers like a damn jet fighter. My "68 roadrace setup Vette can not hold a candle to it even with race rubber when it comes to response.

cam-

Safety is one thing... High performance is quite another... In fact usually the higher performance ( more speed ) the less the safety. Why not buy run flats if safety is what you are after?

What can I say. Talk is cheap. I feel the same about my car but there is no point arguing about this over the net. I hope to meet up with you on the track one day

George

The bolts that hold the bracket on to the spindle - have you got them safety wired ??

RTFC

It always comes to this- Here me taking down an M3 BMW at California Speedway on the GS-D3's. Grip is safety- grip is fast, I don't know what else to say either- sorry- no hard feelings here

George, Yes they are safety wired. The other two between the silver bracket and the radial mount bracket are threaded into the silver bracket and those allen head bolts do in fact breach the other side with exaust locknuts torqued onto the back sides for safety- no wireties on those two, just cross torqued threads.

Dean

cam-

Hey man no hard feelings here. I just kept it short and to the point and obviously most of us here feel our cars perform very well. All I meant was we can ramble on with a bunch of jibber jabber here for years but the cold fact is unless we met on a track then thats all it is just a bunch of bench racing which is something I very seldom get lured into these days so no worries. We are just two of many here with opinions on this or that and enjoying third gens so lighten up man no matter what anyone says here its just talk. No need to get upset or worried about it cause none of us agree with everyone all the time.

But I still think I could take you

JK. I guess we wil never find out unless you want to meet somewhere halfway to Canada?

Chickenman35

Hmmmm...now there's an interesting thought. I know that John Dewey also has a pretty quick machine out West, and I'm sure that there are plenty of others ( including Dean of course ). I've been thinking about selling my car....but I just may keep it another year or so. Some friends want to run lapping days at Portland and Pacific Raceway ( Seattle ) tracks. Would be fun if some of us could get together.

Gotta run off to work...but I'll start another thread on this later in the Autocross\DragRacing section. We could start an East Coast version as well.