novaderrik

picked up the LS1 rotors, calipers, and oem grade ceramic pads from NAPA..



picked up a spare set of spindles from the junkyard so i don't have to dig my car out of the snowdrift and take it apart to do the fab work.. i hacked off the extra stuff with a sawzall and ground away the forging lines and sharp edges and what not just because i roll like that some times:



i'm gonna drill/tap the mounting holes at work, then bead blast them and paint them up all pretty with some semi gloss black Krylon or Rustoleum..

ok, time for the questions:

1) what size should i tap the holes in the spindle out to? thinking M12X1.5, but might just go with something like 1/2-20 because grade 8 bolts are cheaper than metric..

2) which rotors should i use to make the hubs? think i've read that the stock rotors push the rotor back into the spindle. i've seen 1LE rotors used as hubs, but those aren't a common junkyard find and are kinda spendy to buy just to hack up.. how about mid 80's Caprice light duty rotors? the 7/16" studs don't bother me, since i'm going with Dorman 1/2" studs for an 05 Mustang no matter what i end up with..
another option: i have a set of drum brake hubs left over from my 71 Nova. the internet tells me that the stock Camaro SET6 and SET34 wheel bearings will work in those hubs, but i don't know how far out they would push the rotor.. i don't feel like going thru the trouble of turning down the outside diameter of the hubs to fit the rotors and pounding in the races only to find out it's way off.. does anyone have any measurements of the preferred rotors that could tell me if those drum hubs have the proper offset?

3)what is the thread pitch of the mounting points in the stock caliper mounting brackets that came with the calipers?

4) thin spacers will fit my GTA wheels over these brakes, correct? first hand knowledge with pics if possible would be cool for this part of it..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

IIRC, I used a 1/2" bolt for the upper mounting point, and a 7/16" bolt for the lower. Also it was fine thread. The stock dust shields can be trimmed down and still used as the inner bearing shield.

The '71 Nova hubs likely won't work. The spindle length is shorter for those.

I used the stock Camaro rotor cut down to make the hub. The 1LE rotors are wider, and along with the LS1 rotor will push the wheels out further.

Be sure to check the rotor balance someplace along the way. The ones I got (C4 standard) were way out of balance. I drilled partly into the hat section to balance them (not all of the way through).

The ceramic pads are likely low dusting, but also have a low coefficient of friction. For better whoa, go with something like the StopTech High Performance Street pad.

RBob.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Before you paint them, check your bracket, you may need to remove the steering stop as well.

It looks like you have a set of 90-92 spindles there, which is a good thing. Any of the following sizes should be fine.
7/16"
M12
1/2" (make sure there is enough meat on the spindle before you drill)

I would go with the largest that will fit nicely. Cost of the screw would fall dead last in which size I choose.

A standard 10.5" hub/rotor is easiest and is the correct offset for a 1/2" thick bracket.

novaderrik

actually, they came off an 84 Z/28.. i just got the spindles with nothing attached to them.. no strut, no rotors, no calipers, no rotors- nothing except a little bit of residual grease and one of them came with the big nut.. and, yeah, i'll make sure everything fits before making them pretty. that's just common sense, and something i learned 25 years ago when i first started playing with these 1:1 scale car models..

so a stock rotor is the best option to make into a hub? i wish i had an extra set laying around because junkyards around here are pretty damn proud of their used brake rotors these says- a brand new one is only a few dollars more- and i don't feel like digging the car out of the pile of snow that has accumulated around it just to pull the rotors off and make it immobile. the plan is to get it all put together and then just swap the spindles.. might even go get the lower control arms from the same car the spindles came from so i can put new bushings and balljoints and what not in them..

TPI-Formula350-

Lots of pics of GTA rims with LS1 brakes...you'll need 1/8" spacer to clear GTA rims from the calipers.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/whee...g-4-front.html

novaderrik

i know they aren't the best, but i wanted an oem baseline. i used the same pads as what i got this time on the 12" C4 brakes i put on the front of my 71 Nova 10 years ago, and that car just flat out stopped better than anything else i've ever driven.

sweet.. just where is the interference generally on those wheels? does it hit the back of the spokes, or does the ribbing on the caliper interfere with the step in the wheel hoop? do "rear" wheels clear, or just "fronts"? i've got a set of "rears" that i had on the car before i bought new tires for the current 15" Monte Carlo SS wheels, and i've also got the "fronts" that are currently on my T Type that's been in storage for over a year..

TPI-Formula350-

the clearance issue is between the spoke and caliper. the front and rear rim will both work with an 1/8" spacer.If you reverse the front with rear it helps bring the wheel offset back to where it should be. Meaning it will correct the offset that pushes out the wheel from the added thickness of the ls1 rotor over the new hub.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

After all these years, nobody makes an aftermarket spindle that takes bolt on bearing ?

-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I have actually looked at this. Using a vette bolt on hub would be pretty slick. IMO, to do one right, would cost well over $1k before you add in the cost of the vette hubs. This would be for a one piece spindle, no welding. Once I get 10 people ready to commit, I'll start making these.

I'll have to see if I can dig up a screen print of the cad file.

John

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Seems like it would be pretty easy to cast a spindle with a 3 or 4 bolt flange. They make drop spindles for short money.

The other thing I never understood was why they don't make aftermarket spindles with smaller ackerman arm for rack and pinion conversions.

I'd use LSx parts rather than vette. LS1 hubs are $94 each. The bolt on bracket kind of scares me, although there has been zero reported failures, still. A spindle made for the job would be best.


-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Easy yes, cost effective no. I couldn't see getting a mold made for any quantity less than hundreds.

My theoretical spindles would be machined aluminum similar to what the aftermarket is doing with the old muscle cars. There would be several sets of holes for the hubs at varying heights. A standard and drop spindle all in one. Of course this hub would also have corrected steering geometry.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'd imagine selling 500 sets on ebay wouldn't be too hard.

Think of the marketing.. "Use 2002 brakes on your 1982 camaro, this bolt on replacement spindle allows you to use OEM quality factory brake parts. Optionally available with 3" steering arm for rack N pinion conversions"..

We used to use a lot of kits on mustangs 20 years ago but the problem was the companies would go out of business and we couldn't find rotors/calipers/etc. That's my problem with all the aftermarket brakes. Don't wanna drop $1500 then find out they discontinue the product line.

The cost of the current LSx swap is reasonable, but I'm uncomfortable about the conversion itself. The brackets, taping the spindle, and that machined hub just rub me the wrong way.


-- Joe

novaderrik

do some looking around online about the ATS AFX forged aluminum spindles for GM products.. they take a Vette hub and are set up for C5/C6 brakes... they are also spendy, and there probably hasn't been 500 sets sold in the 5 or 6 years they've been out.. those fit pretty much and A,F, and X body GM cars (hence the "AFX" name) and also G body cars made from 64-88.. the market for a third gen F body version would be a small fraction of the market for those..

anyways, i made some progress tonight at work on break.. milled down the o.d. of the drum brakes i have just to see how they'd fit.. the hub fits the spindles fine, but the rotor puts the caliper mounting bracket about an inch out from where it would need to be for a 1/4" bracket to work.. so i'm either going to put spacers in there to take up the room and keep the extra track width (and put a ton of side loading on the bolts..) or just get a set of Camaro rotors and cut them down.. or maybe i could machine up some offset mounts out of 1" steel or something goofy like that, but that seems like a lot of extra unnecessary unsprung weight...





and, yes, i know that's a passenger side caliper on the driver's side spindle.. it's just mockup time now..

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Spoken like someone who isn't paying for the mold. I think 500 sets would take 10+ years to sell.

There are lots of good brake kits out there that use OEM rotors for easy replacement.

Also, I don't use the machined rotor/hub. I use a purpose built aluminum hub that is stronger than the iron and doesn't have any of the problems found with the iron hubs. They are more costly of course.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You really think so ? I would think these cars are much more popular.

I've seen the aluminum hubs for $300. How do you figure they are stronger?

Oh well. It was just a thought.

-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I guess nobody knows.


I don't know anything about any of the hubs other than the Kore3 hubs I use. They are well designed. The 6061T6 aluminum used in the standard hubs is stronger than the cast iron that is used to make rotors.

If that is not enough there is also a road race hub make from 7075T6 which is almost double as strong as 6061.

The hubs also have strengthening ribs integrated into the design. I like them a lot.

They are about 4lbs lighter than an iron hub.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I wonder if you could use a 6" lathe to machine these hubs.

What's the diameter at the parting line?

-- Joe

novaderrik

made a little progress last week at work while parts were running in the cnc..this is why working night shift at a machine shop rules:

brand new replacement rotor for an 86 Camaro on left, 2000 Camaro on right.. yes, it's beefier..





this is what's left of the brand new little rotor:



i'd get to work on making the bracket, but i forgot to bring the big spindle nut with to hold the hub in place, and i don't have any M12X1.25 bolts to fasten the bracket to the spindle.. Fastenal is on my list of places to stop tomorrow. i wish i would have just tapped the stupid thing to something like 1/2 fine thread, because we have bins of those around here at work for mockup...

novaderrik

here's a few pics of how the bracket holds it all together:









it only took me 3 tries before i nailed down the final hole placement.
just need a few minor parts, blast and paint everything, pack the bearings, and put it all together..

novaderrik

that was last night... got some shorter bolts for the upper boss where the bracket bolts to the spindle- Fastenal didn't have any M12X1.25 bolts, but the NAPA a block away did.. need to also get some better bolts to bolt the caliper baskets to the bracket- the ones in the pics are just some random stainless bolts from the bins here at work, but i spotted some Ford caliper mounting bolts in the Help! section at O'Reilly's last week that will do nicely to make it look more like a stock install (not that it really matters at this point, but why not?) and allow me to get a socket on the one down where the steering stop used to be.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

You sure the caliper abutment bracket isn't resting on the lower bracket to spindle bolt head?

novaderrik

positive.. the abutment bracket is spaced away from the adapter bracket with some hardened steel spacers (well, it will be.. there's just some washers in there for now..) that i put there to line everything up and there is about 1/8" clearance between the bolt head and the abutment.
everything is flat and square- this isn't my first go 'round with this kind of thing... did something similar putting C4 brakes on my 71 Nova a decade ago..

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ah, spacers explains it.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Just drilled my spindles. Took me 5 times longer to set each one up than to actually drill it. Took forever to find a combination of flat stock and shims so that the holes were parallel with the drill.

I don't know what these spindles are made out of, but the drill bit went through it so fast I thought I broke a bit. At 500 RPM which was the lowest setting on that machine.

-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Just wait until you tap them. They tap easier than plastic. No fluid or chip breaking required.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I had to order a tap. I don't own any metric taps. Should be in (fastenal) tomorrow. For 10 bucks I hope it's a good one and not chinese crap.

I used an 11/32 drill but, rather than the 13/32 because I saw you mention that these spindles tend to drill a little oversize.

Do you think I undersized the drill bit too much?

The biggest problem right now is I can't get the power steering fittings on the blue fragola hose.

-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

As long as tap has enough taper to fit in the drilled hole I think you will be ok. I would definitely pay attention though. Knocking down the edge of the hole with a countersink might help too.

I have done the power steering hose business. I found twisting fitting helps. This was with Aeroquip fititngs.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

These hoses have defeated me for the night. Will try again this weekend.

http://www.fragolaperformancesystems...gassembly.html

Assuming I'm not out plowing all weekend, maybe I'll get the brakes together.

-- Joe

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'd like to add to be sure to use red loctite on the bolts that mount the bracket to the spindle and the bolts that mount the bracket to the abutment.

Looks good.

RBob.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yup or even better, lock wire.

novaderrik

just hung everything up and fogged some semi gloss black Rustoleum on it all..

novaderrik

here's my final mockup pics.. everything fits, everything clears, and i just need to pack the bearings, install the grease seals, and shorten up the Dorman caliper mounting bolts for a Ford application:














everything fits, nothing rubs.. just gotta blow it all apart one last time to pack the bearings, install the grease seals, put red loctite on the bolts, and install longer wheel studs. haven't decided if i wanna get longer 12mm studs or drill the hubs out a little bit and use a set of Dorman 1/2" studs for the front of an '05-current Mustang.. i've also got a set of Dorman caliper mounting bolts for a Ford application that i'm gonna use to mount the baskets to the bracket i made, but they are about 1/4" too long and need to be shortened up... that should make things look a little more oem if you poke your head under there...

novaderrik

oh, yeah, i'm also going to paint the aluminum calipers the same black as everything else once i know they don't leak... just wanna make them disappear...
one other thing i might do is to shoot a fog coat of black onto the rotors to keep them from turning that lovely orange color from rust.. but i might just leave them bare to give everything that "i'm stock, nothing to see here" kinda vibe...

novaderrik

here's a parts list, for anyone that wants to replicate this. these are all NAPA part numbers..

2000 Camaro:

front rotors 4886641 (2 req)
caliper, front left: SE524A
caliper, front right: SE243A
brake pads, OE premium grade: SS-7618-X

86 Camaro:

front rotors to make hub (Bendix) PRT1233 (2 req)
(NAPA site is down as i type this, but that's the rotor part number i found at Summit)

wheel bearing, front inner: BR6 ( 2 req)
wheel bearing, front outer: BR34 (2 req)
wheel grease seal: 19984 (2 req)
spindle lock nut kit: 630-1523 (2 req)
dust cap: 730-2438 (2 req)

misc stuff:

bracket to spindle:
M12X1.25 X 20mm long grade 10.9 bolts (2 req per side)

caliper basket to bracket:
M12X1.75X 30mm grade 10.9 bolts (2 req per side)
or
Dorman/Motormite Ford caliper bolts: 13898 (2 req)

as i type this, i've got around $320 into this project, with maybe $50 more by the time it's on the car in the next month or so.. tomorrow, i test fit some different wheels- front and rear GTA's, Monte SS aluminum (not hopeful that they will fit, but hey, never know...), and the mini spare that i've been carrying around in the back of the car..

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Here's some info that 'might' be helpful:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...e-4th-gen.html

JamesC

novaderrik

i don't even know what the spare tire i have is from, but i do know that it doesn't even fit in the spare tire cubby hole so it's kept in the otherwise useless part of the hatch that drops way down... i think it's from the 86 Caprice that i used to have.
i do know that it didn't fit the C4 brakes i had on my Nova way back when, but the spare that's in the trunk of my 84 Regal T Type did fit so that's the one i hauled around in that car.

novaderrik

one last issue- what's the part number for the longer Dorman wheel studs? i'm still thinking of going with the '05 and newer Mustang front stud, but that would be more work and require different lug nuts..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Studs: 10 pcs, napa 6411581 cross reference to dorman 610-323

Motormite 98501
Dorman 610-323

They are 54mm long (about 2-1/8"), .509 knurl with an 8mm shoulder.

RBob.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

2 1/8" sounds a touch short for this application. I would look at around a 2 1/2" stud.

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

subscribed.

novaderrik

ok, i'm back to this thing.. this damn MN winter won't go away, so my motivation hasn't kept up on this.. but i'm close to actually putting this thing together..

got the longer Dorman studs..



and pressed them into my hubs- without a single crack.. yay..



here's the hubs with the studs pressed in.. looks kinda cool:



and with the Dorman lug nuts screwed on:



tried making some 1/4" wheel spacers for it, but i measured the center hub diameter wrong and the outside diameter isn't as big as i'd like- forgot to compensate for the width of the end mill in the cnc program.. oops.. that's the kind of stuff that happens when you do this stuff at work at 5am after you clock out after a 10 hour shift.. i fixed the program, just gotta find more 1/4" aluminum scraps to make them, or maybe i'll just make some steel spacers for it?...

now, what do i use for hoses for this thing? will the stockers work, or is there a different application i need to get hoses for? looking at pic of the 98-02 F body hoses tells me they might work, and 90's B body hoses also look similar... i'm just gonna get new rubber hoses for now, and upgrade to braided down the road.. but i need to know an oem application that has hoses that will work- i'd rather know before spending money on this stuff, and the car can't be dead in the garage with no brakes for a week while i order stuff after i find out i don't have the right combination of parts...

novaderrik

here's a parts list, for anyone that wants to replicate this. these are all NAPA part numbers..

2000 Camaro:

front rotors 4886641 (2 req)
caliper, front left: SE5248A
caliper, front right: SE5243A
brake pads, OE premium grade: SS-7618-X

86 Camaro:

front rotors to make hub (Bendix) PRT1233 (2 req)
(NAPA site is down as i type this, but that's the rotor part number i found at Summit)

wheel bearing, front inner: BR6 ( 2 req)
wheel bearing, front outer: BR34 (2 req)
wheel grease seal: 19984 (2 req)
spindle lock nut kit: 630-1523 (2 req)
dust cap: 730-2438 (2 req)

misc stuff:

bracket to spindle:
M12X1.25 X 20mm long grade 10.9 bolts (2 req per side)

caliper basket to bracket:
M12X1.75X 30mm grade 10.9 bolts (2 req per side)
or
Dorman/Motormite Ford caliper bolts: 13898 (2 req)

Dorman 610-323 wheel studs

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for posting the info!

BlackMamba

iTrader: (6)

man that looks nice... i like how you painted your parts.... i wanted to do that to my brakes but i went with a different set up

vortec350s10

Just finished my swap last night! I know what you mean about this damn MN winter never ending! I already had aftermarket braided hoses so I can't say if the stock rubber ones are longer but mine reached and installed ok. The banjo bolts are different though. The LS1 calipers have M10 x 1.0 thread and the stock ones are M10 x 1.5 or 1.75 (coarse thread). So if you didn't get the banjo bolts with the calipers you'll need those, along with new copper sealing washers. And apparently most auto stores don't stock M10 x 1.0 banjo bolts. Go figure. My ebay calipers only came with one bolt so I just ordered a second off ebay for a few bucks. I'm curious as to how well they work with the ceramic pads. I know my stock brakes with ceramics didn't work well at all.

novaderrik

got a part number or application for the banjo bolt? none of the parts stores in the area and none of their websites have one listed for an LS1 F body..

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What are you guys doing for a steering stop?

This might be a problem partially due to my spohn control arms, but my tire crashes into the splashguard/inner fender right about the same time as the bolt for the brake hose hits the control arm.

-- Joe

vortec350s10

I'm pretty sure the banjo bolts needed are M10 x1.0 thread. My used LS1 front calipers only came with one bolt, so I ordered a M10 x1.0 banjo bolt that should arrive soon. Then I will know for sure if it matches the other.

As far as steering stops, I've only taken my car out once to test the brakes. To be honest I haven't thought much about it yet, but IIRC the banjo bolt heads didn't contact the lower control arm. The spindle hit the steering stop (in a different location)before the banjo bolt heads could touch anything. This was with the wheels off, I haven't seen if my tires rub yet or if there are any other ill effects from the increased steering travel.

One thing to note that I didn't think about or expect at all though is since the wheels are spaced out .5" because of the new rotor, the front of the car is lower now. I didn't think the .5" of additional leverage on the lower control arm would effect it that much but my car is probably .5 - .75" lower in the front now. The first thing I noticed is my alignment felt funny driving straight. Not bad, just a little weird. Then I went to jack up my front end and the jack wouldn't fit. So I will have to tweak my camber and toe now to accommodate the change in ride height. Oh well, my car sat a little high in the front anyways before, but I'm glad it wasn't already lowered.

novaderrik

i know the size of the banjo bolt- i found some on Summit- but i'm trying to order everything locally and a part number and/or application that can be typed into the computer at the store would be a help..

novaderrik

found some M10X1.0 banjo bolts at NAPA

part number 83166