87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

This is my second try at a custom setup for my '87 Camaro. First attempt is in this thread:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/car-...-build-up.html

Overall some components of this setup worked really well and others didn't. This is my attempt to fix all the issues. Some songs sounded great and others sounded terrible. I think I had some serious frequency gaps. I attribute this to retaining the factory dash locations. I just don't think this is a good location. Also I didn't like the harshness of the tweeters.

Current setup
head unit - Alpine 9887 w/ imprint
front speakers - Infinity 6020CS 6.5" 2 way passive components (woofer in stock dash location, tweeter in a-pillar)
rear speakers - Infinity 6020CS 6.5" 2 way passive components (in sail panels)
sub - 12" Image Dynamics IDQ V2, sealed in 1.25 ft^2 enclosure (IIRC) in rear well area
main amp - Apline V-Power F300 (75wx4 @ 2ohms, speakers are 2ohm)
sub amp - Alpine V-Power M500 (500w @ 2ohm)

The car is sound deadened.

To be clear this is strictly a SQ build

Future setup

Head unit - current, but open to other suggestions, local shop recommended the latest Alpine head units that have a lot more adjustments without relying on the automated adjustments of imprint, have not done any research yet.
New head unit needs to have:
- CD player
- ipod connection
- 4+ volt outputs
- multiband eq
- time alignment
- non-offensive lights, graphics and styling
- integrated HD radio is optional but preferred
- active crossover is optional

Front speakers - the 6.5" woofers will be installed in the doors near the power window motor. For this reason I am looking to go slim (2" mount depth or less) so my build out is un-obtrusive. I may stretch this to 2.5" later if I have to, but for now lets keep it to 2" or less. Tweeter I am unsure of location so far. Options include doors, a pillar, stock dash location. I am open for debate on this. I also prefer a neutral to laid back sound that will not fatigue. Budget is ~$500 for the front set

Speakers I am considering, I am open to other suggestions
- GermanMaestro EFS 6508 (1.77" deep)
- Rainbow CS 265 X-plain pro (1.69" deep)
- CDT CL-E61NEO (2.1" deep)
- Focal 165VRS (2.2" deep)
- Hertz ESK-F165.5 (1.7" deep)
- Zapco ZSL-165 (1.625" deep)

Rear speakers - I'm not sure what I want to do for these yet. It might depend on how much I spend for fronts and amps. I could see any one of the following options. I would love to hear opinions.

1. same or similar components as to the fronts
2. bass or mid-bass only (7-8")
3. 8" subs and lose the rear sub - i like this idea, I don't want to see my stereo stuff. Any issues with noise cancellation with the drivers pointing right at each other?

Amps - not sure yet. Thoughts on my current amps? In my experience, the difference between a top end and entry level amp is not that great. I would rather put the money into the speakers.

Sub - I don't have much reason to get rid of my current sub. I ran this sub for quite a while as a home theater / music sub in my living room while I was building a big HT sub and it sounded great, even with a ton of power. So I have no reason to believe this can't sound good in a car.

I would love to hear thoughts on this plan. Please skip comments like "just get some kenwoods". I need more detail than that.

My first and biggest project will be building door panels for the speakers. So finding the right speaker depth is my first priority. This will be a slow thread as I don't do anything on my car quickly.

Thanks,
John

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

i dont think you should change everything at once. you got good stuff i just think the car sucks for sq(stock positions). you would be surprised how much the speaker position and proper depth and cf of the airspace makes on the sound of the speakers. you say you dont want to see the speakers but i think the bigger the air space the better the sound(to a certain point). what type of music you listen to?


edit: after reading some reviews there are alot of complaints about those speakers (Shrill sounding)and i cant find install specs. i have polk speakers in my bird and my 07 monte and they are very natural sounding and loud and clear. i have clarion HU, polk db speakers with 50w/ch. and two lower power 10's, the component 6.5's are never going to fill the lows like a sub can and they sound better if not trying.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

If your primary goal is sound quality, have you considered the kick panel location? It's the most effective way to get equalized pathlengths and the best overall soundstage. The frequency response issues can be largely overcome through proper driver selection and equalization.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

All good points. I suspect the Infinitys would do fine in a room with your ear a little further from the tweeter. My big reason for wanting to to pick the front speakers first is the door panels are going to be custom fit for the speaker depth. I suppose I could make the door panel build outs for 2" deep speakers (like my current speakers) and then I could easily swap speakers later. I am trying to keep my build out as shallow as possible.

I can't believe I forgot the music. I listen to a lot of different kinds of music: rock, blues, vocals, folk, rap, country, probably in that order. One thing I don't listen to is music with heavy double bass. Two areas I am critical of are female voices and piano. Both seem very hard to reproduce correctly. I probably should have used the polk db's in my original build as I am a polk fan. Maybe they were too deep for the dash, I don't recall.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I have. In fact we swapped PM's a few years ago. I seem to recall at one point you were making custom kick panels, but no longer are?

My biggest concern with kick panels is left foot room. I want to be able to use the dead pedal to the left of the clutch. Thoughts? How far do you think a 2" deep speaker would stick out from the stock kick panel?

Finally, I have been very happy with the sound of door mounted speakers in other vehicles. That doesn't necessarily make it the best location of course.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

There's very little room behind the kick panels unless you're willing to cut some of the sheet metal. Without cutting that sheet metal, it will be necessary for almost all of the driver to protrude from the kick panel, and will render your dead pedal useless. I've become accustomed to resting my left foot under my clutch pedal when driving, so I don't really miss it.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

That is about what I figured. I would like to keep the dead pedal as I want to road trip this car.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

my current dd has components from the factory in the doors, this is pretty good setup, but i think if i was going to do anything it would be drivers in the doors and tweets in the a-pillars, i think on the fbody they might end up sort of under your knees. i had a neon that was that way and it seemed like the best place. i guess i like to hide the aftermarket stuff too if possible because i just reuse whats there for placement normally, people dont want to steal what they cant see.

also the pianos and midrange noise sometimes is better filled by some 6x9's, if you have 6.5 drivers in the front they seem a little high to me and there is a frequency gap between them and the subs imo. some good power 6x9's will fill some of that in, or possibly a smaller sub which i have never tried

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yeah that is pretty much what I am thinking. I should be able to play around with the tweeter location much easier than the woofer location.

Yeah, I am thinking about trying a mid-bass woofer in the rear locations. Just need to build a crossover. 8" should fit easily back there.

plum92_camaro

i have the q-logic kick panels and i do like how they direct the sound as long as you don't have something large on the passenger floor board blocking the speaker. The q logics are kind cheap but they've been in my car over 15 years with no problems. On that note i'd like to say i've never used or been able to use my dead pedal but that has never been and issue and i've taken several lengthy road trips in my camaro. I've thought many times about beefing up the q-logics with some MDF rings and bracing on the back side, just something to make them a little more solid but never got around to it.

I've also thought about building custom tweeter mounts that mount to the triangles at the front of the door windows. I like things to appear as if it is supposed to be there and can't come up with a good idea to mount them. i also like all mods to be reversible, no making holes. Hope my input is helpful.

I am also in the middle of a major stereo overhaul/upgrade. So far i've upgraded my wiring (knu koncepts) and amps (RF Power Series). I'm still running a 15 year old panasonic Head Unit with less options than a modern factory unit, some 20 year old Boston 6.5s and some 11 year old kicker CVR12's. Sounds ok but nowhere near what it could be.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I am just not willing to lose the foot room.

I have used knu koncepts wires in the past and was not impressed. I had several RCA cables fail. I will be tearing these out during this build.

plum92_camaro

Only my power and grounds are knu koncepts. My RCAs and distribution blocks are stinger. I hear RF has good wire these days too.

soul.justice

Wire is wire. The only two things you need pay attention to is that you use OFC copper wire with a high strand count, and that the wire you're purchasing doesn't use a lot of insulation and a little bit of wire. Don't get caught up in using name brand wire. Do your research.

Any manufactured RCA cable can be subjected to weak joints when the wire is soldered to the male plug. You can always build your own.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm not sure who this is directed to, but I don't disagree in any way. Anyway, lets bring this back on topic.

I laid out a design for the door pods in 3D. I will take some screen shots and share tomorrow.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Here is the initial concept for the door pod.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

pretty professional design, lol. how much space is there going to be for the speaker, you going to cut some airspace into the door?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

The back of the pod will be open to use the whole air space of the door.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

that should be better than on the dash

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Have you made any progress on the panels?

With your amps in place of the spare, what are you doing for a spare? AAA?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

No, not much progress. I have had other priorities.

I have a buddy who has a cnc router. So I am going to makes the pods that way. I just need to finalize my cad files.

Car is not a daily driver. I rely on 200mi AAA for things like flats. I would not want to drive the car on the 25yr old spare anyway.

Cameron@LFM

I have used Infinity in every vehicle I have owned. My 2008 Silverado has full infinity set, plus tweeters. I use headunit to power my stock tweeters as well. Blows away my buddies focal speakers he paid much more for. As long as you stick with infinity component sets you can't really go wrong. I use a 4.300 JL amp for my highs in my truck. I have infinity 4x6 plates up front and putting infinity kappa 6x9's in the back. Wanting to keep this a street/strip ride, so I am putting a small 8" woofer in the back. Going to be weird going from 18" FI in my old setup, to 2 12 T2's on 2600 watts and 3 batteries to a nice SQ system. LOL. Good luck!

Stonehenge

iTrader: (3)

Hello John, doing good here.. finished all my treatments just waiting to go back to work. Was just reading and came across this and wanted to input my suggestions.. I'm using a Kenwood bt952hd, has ipod connector from the rear, bluetooth, hd radio..and looks really nice. Built in connections and you can shut down the inner amp. For power I'm using 2 Kenwood 8502 4/3/2 channel amps. One for the interiors and one bridged for my bazooka tube sub. My interiors are jbl's p963 6 x 9's and two p6462's in the dash. Using the head units crossover and it all sounds great and should last forever.. again, thanks for your friendship in my time of need, it will never be forgotten.

Rudy a.k.a Stone

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Subscribing.....I really like the door buildout design

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Hi Rudy,

Nice to talk to you again. Thanks for the info.

John

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Its been a while since I have updated this. Mostly because until now I have not made any progress.

I finally nailed down my door panel design. I will add some screen shots later. Looks quite similar to what I shared before.

I ended up with CDT CL-6SL slim woofers and Image Dynamics XS-28 tweeters. I am going for a laid back sound here. Especially for the tweeters. I can't wait to hear the XS-28's. I will be running this active on likely the Pioneer DEH-80PRS head unit. It looks like crossing this over at about 3k hz is a good place to start. I plan to use a Alpine PDX V9 amp.

I am a bit concerned about the mid bass on the slim mount CDT's. I guess we will have to see.

I am thinking about getting rid of my Image Dynamics IDQ V2 12" sub and replacing with either a pair or 6.5" or 6x9" Tang Band subwoofers in the rear sail panels.

Thoughts?

I suppose if I really run into problems with the mid bass I can run some 6.5" mid-woofers in the sail panels and retain a typical sub in the hatch. Although I would have to rethink my amp strategy.

John

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

I cant wait to see pics; I'm thinking about installing a similar design like what you pictured in post #15.

Have you looked into JBL 6.5" components? I used to have JBL MS-62C's in my old 4th gen and they were excellent (to my ears).

I've used 6.5" kappas in the same 4th gen that were similar to your current components; they were too bright for me personally...

Edit to add: Polk's mm's are a decent speaker as well. (Polk's db series is alright, but their mm series has a noticeably better sound.)

The Project

iTrader: (6)

XS-28 tweet is a nice sounding unit.

I've heard Hertz shallow 6.5" mids and they had no problem producing great mid sound. Maybe put some wave deflector material behind the CDT (seems to add bass/impact to the mid). Just a thought.

Have you thought about going 8's in the sail area?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

There are a lot of speakers I probably would have chosen over the CDT slims given more mounting depth. These CDT's are only 1.5" mounting depth. I chose to go that route to minimize loss of leg room. Especially on the drivers side with clutch/dead pedal room.

I will have to post some pictures of the CDTs. They are a pretty interesting design. The cone is actually a honeycomb assembly and is extremely stiff.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yeah I was considering the Hetz speakers as well. When I found the CDT's I got all excited because they were another 0.5" slimmer than most slim speakers. We'll see if I pay the penalty. Encourage that the Hertz sounded good though.

I have considered 8's in the sail panel. Either woofers or subs. I need to do some testing though, I believe a little bit of metal will need to be removed. And I need to see if the OEM cover will still fit. Thoughts? I have some home audio 8" woofers laying around I can mock up.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Speakers

CDT CL-6SL

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Ahh. I didn't even consider mounting depth; that does limit your choices.

The CDT's look good though.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

8's


10's


Sail panel seems to fit both.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I will have to check it out. Looks like they made a baffle and the speaker sits further out than stock. Seems like the surround would hit the back of the cover. I will play around with it. 8's would be nice. Thanks.

I started on fabricating the door pods. First part is the grill frame. Once complete, black grill cloth will will be stretched over the frame.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Here is a better representation of what it should look like. Actual pod is slightly smaller in all dimensions.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

The new mount is thinner than the factory metal mount so the panels will fit. Back in the early 90's I ran Soundstream Granite Series 8's in the sail for a year.

Sorry, no pics but I remember making a bracket to mount behind the sub with no baffle. The sub screwed to the body and into the bracket behind for added support.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Cool. My car was a radio delete so my car did not have the normal sail panel provisions that most people have.

So what did you think of the 8's back there?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Here is my test piece. Getting close to ready for fiberglass. I have never worked with fiberglass before so I wanted to build an test piece first.



One of my concerns was the corners would go concave when the cloth was stretched over the frame. And that is exactly what happened. So I had to add these in the corners for support.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

After I added the guides, the fabric stretched pretty nice. Will need some body filler. If I take a little more care with the guide placement I can avoid a lot of issues. I wetted out the fabric tonight and will see how it turns out tomorrow morning.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

I really liked the 8's....ran them for a year before I pulled everything out
(car became the only Soundstream sponsored IASCA vehicle in Canada)

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I measured the metal opening in the sail panel to be 6 3/8" x 9 1/8". And at the shallowest point (the bottom) there is approx 3/4" between my current mdf panel (see below) and the back of the interior plastic. It looks like the cutout diameter for 8's is in the 7.25-7.5 neighborhood.

Did you run the 8's IB? That is one of my challenges with using sail panel subs. I am not willing to fiberglass the inside of the sail panel to seal it off.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Two layers of fiberglass on my door pod. Everything is now quite stiff. 2 layers will be enough.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

I ran the 8's free air. Outside sail panel area would "flex" a bit..especially with some Snoop Dog or Ice Cube

Some deadener on the inside behind the sub might be an idea.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Cool. Sail panels are already deadened. I was looking at some suitable IB subs.

DLS OA8
Image Dynamics ID8
Anarchy 6.5

Honestly I would love to run Acoustic Elegance subs but they only make the IB series down to 10".

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Looks like I have 5" mounting depth at the bottom of the cutout and 3.75" in the middle. So I will have to keep the sub at or near 4" mount depth realistically.

DLS OA8 - 4.72" - not going to work
Image Dynamics ID8 - 4.75" - not going to work
Anarchy 6.5 - 3.66" - will work
Peerless SLS - 4.39" - might work
Dayton RS225 - 3.62" - will work

The Peerless SLS gets awesome reviews in IB. I am inclined to try them. I just need to determine if the depth is really going to work.

John

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I can now see why the Peerless is so well regarded in IB. It whoops the rest of the contenders.

Right click - view image for full resolution

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Good news. The Peerless specs on Parts Express was wrong. They are only 3.94" deep. I am going to pick up a pair and I will make them fit.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I worked on my test piece some more. While routing out the center section I had the bearing on my flush trim bit come apart. Fortunately for me, the pod acted like a shield and I didn't receive any of the debris.

Notice the screw that holds the bearing to the cutter is still there. Lucky day for me.





Anyway, I also got to the first coat of body filler. I have never done filler before but it seemed to work pretty well. I will do the rest of the part tomorrow and it will probably require a quick second coat.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I got the vinyl mostly installed on the test piece. It went pretty well with the exception of two locations. The first is the acute angle. There just is no place for the fabric to go on the back side of the pod. The second is where the vinyl has to go down the edge where the grill will sit. I just don't know how to make this look good yet. The vinyl stretches pretty well, but I am asking a lot from it.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I started working on the actual pods for my car. So far so good.

Here is the top surface with speaker mount.



And with the grill frame set inside.

Scrounge

Looks great!