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I was wondering if it would be possible to run Ethanol in my car? Here in my town they have it at 20 cents gal less the the lowest octane. Now from what I understand is that Ethanol is a higher octane then a normal gas.....Something like 101. Well anyway could I run it or is there something I would have to do different to the carb ect. ?
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1985 Z28, GMPP ZZ383, Holley Stealth Ram 30lb/hr injectors, 950 commander, 91' 700r4 W/Trans go shift kit and corvette servo Midwest Converter 3000 stall lockup ,4th gen rear 3.42, Hooker LT with 3" custom Y, 91 Dash, DropZone springs...More to Come :~)
Octane has nothing to do with power. It is only the burn rate of a fuel and resistance to detonation. E85 has less heat energy than regular fuel so you actually make less power per gallon. In many cases you get worse fuel economy with it also.
In your case you would have to tune the fuel and spark for each of the different fuels so it would make switching back and forth between the two difficult. You would also have to make changes to your existing fuel system because alcohol fuels arent compatible with it. Your better off just sticking with what you have.
I know about the octane thing but with E85 you could run a more agesive spark curve and more comp. right? In turn you could get more power from this.....I dunno I am just whipping this out here....lol What is not compatible with the fuel system?
Originally posted by spartyon all of your seals from the gas system need to be replace for alcohol fuels otherwise they would "crumble" or dry out.
Total An old myth from cars built in the early seventies or before. All manufacturers ( cars and rubber suppliers ) have modified there components to be totally compatible with Ethanol.
The gasoline companies wouldn't be allowed to sell the stuff if it had any incompatabilities with current fuel systems. These things are tested and tested and tested by the EPA , the Car companies themselves and independant laboratories.
Talk to someone who has actually used the stuff. Up here in Canada we have has Ethanol mixes since the late seventies. It is a proven fuel and yes you can get more power by running more compression and more timing. Fuel economy goes up...not down. There's a lot more chemistry involved here than just Octane ratings guys. Where do these myths start????
The smart guys up here ( in Canada ) running Forced induction all run 94 Octane Mohawk Ethanol fuel ( 10% Ethanol mix ). Generally allows you two to four degrees extra timing.
As an added bonus the Ethanol dramatically reduces emissions. Great if your car is having trouble getting through the annual " Emissions test".
Most carbed ( and many FI cars ) cars seem to run smoother on Ethanol mixes. There is a marked difference on how my car ( 10.5 to 1 CR. 14 to 16 degree initial timing. 36 total ) runs on Mohawk Ethanol vs the " second best" fuel...Chevron 94. Idle is rougher ( have to turn up idle screw a 1\4 turn ) and engine not as smooth. Plus I have to knock at least two degrees out of the initial timing. Now this is just not my car.....EVERYONE " in the know " up here runs an Ethanol blend.
The only problem that ever occurred using Ethanol, was that there were some cases of fuel filters being plugged with rust on older cars. This occurred in the first two years of it's introduction in Canada. Where was the rust coming from? The inside of fuel tanks could get rusty ( really old cars ) due to moisture. The alchohol in the fuel would lossen the rust and scour the inside of the tanks clean. However...this happenned on only really, really old cars that should have had the fuel tanks replaced in any event. As an added bonus though, after a few tankfulls, your fuel tank was now prsitne clean inside. Furthermore, the Ethanol kept it that way as any further moisture ( mainly from condensation ) was absorbed into the alcohol and burned inside the engine...instead of rusting the inside of the fuel tanks.
I spent twenty years as an Automotive Dealer partsman. Ethanol blends are approved by all Major mfgs'. METHANOL is not. Two different alcohols that are often confused. Methanol is extremely corrossive. Ethanol is not.
Note: Some mfg's do not recommend running Ethanol blends over 10%. The reason is that they have extended Spark Plug change intervals. These Mfg's ( Mainly Japanese ) typically use extended wear plugs with exotic materials such as Platinum. These are the lovely $14 a piece plugs...that suppossedly do not need to changed until 100,00km ( 60,000 miles). Ethanol is a bit harder on spark plugs. They will not last 100,000 kms on Ethanol fuel...so the mfg's have to honor the warranty and replace them free. Now if you're not expecting to have your plugs last 100,000 kms...then you can safely use Ethanol blends up to 15%. 10% should be no problem at all.
Total An old myth from cars built in the early seventies or before. All manufacturers ( cars and rubber suppliers ) have modified there components to be totally compatible with Ethanol.
So alcohol carbs are just a gimmic then?
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The smart guys up here ( in Canada ) running Forced induction all run 94 Octane Mohawk Ethanol fuel ( 10% Ethanol mix ). Generally allows you two to four degrees extra timing.
We run that stuff here in chicago. Its alot different than an 85% mixture thou. Id also like to note that there is a decrease in fuel economy of about 20% with the 10% ethanol blend over regular fuel.
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As an added bonus the Ethanol dramatically reduces emissions. Great if your car is having trouble getting through the annual " Emissions test".
Originally posted by dankhound So alcohol carbs are just a gimmic then?
We run that stuff here in chicago. Its alot different than an 85% mixture thou.
Id also like to note that there is a decrease in fuel economy of about 20% with the 10% ethanol blend over regular fuel.
True
Alchohol carbs, such as those made by Barry Grant etc, are designed to run 100% alcohol. That requires a HUGE change in the fuel curve. Stoichemetric for 100% alcohol is around 7 to 1.....so you have to deliver a huge amount of fuel. Also, the Alcohol classes as we know them, all use Methanol which is highly corrosive. So the whole fuel system has to be changed to not only handle the extra fuel flow...but to handle the corrosive nature of METHANOL. Ethanol is for consumer use ( in the pumps ) and Methanol is used mainly in Racing (Racing Alcohol as used in Cart, IRL, NHRA and IHRA ). That is starting to change though as competitors are starting to see the advantages to Ethanol.
Ethanol is derived from grains and wheats. Methanol is refined from Natural gas. The only reason that Ethanol is not being used in racing is because Methanol was established there first, and only recently were the rules opened up to allow Ethanol. Ethanol production did not start until the 1980's. You are now starting to see some of the Alcohol cars in IHRA using Ethanol though. There is no appreciable difference in performance that I know of.....but I don't think you can use Nitromethane with Ethanol.....only Methanol. I could be wrong there.
A 10% mix as Mohawk uses in Canada os compatable with just about everything with no changes. A 15% mix will need a bit more tuning. FI cars can take care of this but with carbed cars you may have to slightly rejet and bump the timing. Not a big deal for enthusiasts.
Decrease in Fuel economy. Not noticable with an 10% mix...in fact just the opposite...consumers up here see no change or a gain in fuel economy. I find it hard to believe that increasing the alcohol mix by 5% would result in a 20% decrease in fuel economy. I could see a slight decrease...but 20% seems excessive.
Bumping the initial timing a few degrees should bring back most, if not all that loss in fuel economy.
Quote from the second link that I provided:
What is the effect of using ethanol-blended fuels on fuel economy?
Changes in fuel economy are minimal. While a 10% ethanol blend contains about 97% of the energy of 'pure' gasoline, this is compensated by the fact that the combustion efficiency of the ethanol-blended fuel is increased. The net result is that most consumers do not detect a difference in their fuel economy, although many people using ethanol-blended fuels have said that their fuel economy has improved.
Last edited by Chickenman35; 09-05-2004 at 08:20 PM.
Originally posted by Chris's 85z Chickenman35 - So What you are saying is I can use E85? And get more agressive with my timing then? Just have to change my plugs more then?
Yep bump the timing a bit. The 15% blend may even allow more initial. I would not be afraid of running 16 degress initial on E85. Try 14 degrees lead first though. I run 16 degrees lead when racing and 14 degrees on the street ( 10.5 to 1 CR. Aluminium heads ). I quite often get forgetfull and forget to turn the timing back....with no ill affects.
Don't worry abot changing the plugs more often....unless you leave them in for 60,000 miles !!! Regular plug changes are just fine. I'm assuming you change them under 20,000 miles?
I change them every summer....... Now E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gas right? I am running 16 base right now with 92 Octane......Hmmmmm maybe thats to much eh?.......
Originally posted by Chris's 85z I change them every summer....... Now E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gas right? I am running 16 base right now with 92 Octane......Hmmmmm maybe thats to much eh?.......
No...85% gas...15% alcohol.
I'm running 16 initial, with 15 degrees vacuum advance ( connected to manifold vaccuum ) giving 29 total at idle. 36 degrees total mechanical ( vaccuum advacnce not counted with total because it falls off to zero at WOT ).
Correct. At least here in the us. Not sure about canada.
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Changes in fuel economy are minimal. While a 10% ethanol blend contains about 97% of the energy of 'pure' gasoline, this is compensated by the fact that the combustion efficiency of the ethanol-blended fuel is increased. The net result is that most consumers do not detect a difference in their fuel economy, although many people using ethanol-blended fuels have said that their fuel economy has improved.
Not sure on the source for this one but in my experiences with three of my own vehicles, there is about a 20% reduction in highway fuel economy. Friends of mine have had similiar results when going from a 10% ethanol blend to a 0%.
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Now E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gas right?
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Correct. At least here in the us. Not sure about canada.
Sweet Hey Zuse....you are absolutely correct!!! Know wonder you see a reduction in fuel inconomy. My big mistake. Just goes to show you the difference in laws and fuels between Canada and the USA.
I assumed ( incorrectly ) that the USA measured it's Ethanol content the same as Canada...Totally wrong. My sincere apologies.
It is 85% Ethanol...15% gas. Up here ( Canada )it's the other way around. We use a maximum of 10% Ethanol due to the difficulties involved with starting motors with High levels of Ethanol.
So E85 is a totally different animal than what we have up here. If you can find E10 or E15 ( 10% or 15% Ethanol) then that's what you want.
Well just to follow up on this topic, I've been doing some research on Ethanol fuels, both in the USA and Canada.
E85 is intended for Flexible fuel cars.....there are approximately 2 Million of these on the road according to figures available for 2004. Mainly fleet vehicles.
Dankhound...were your three vehicles all FI cars? E85 can work in FI cars. The O2 sensor will adjust the mix to provide the proper stoichemetric level for the fuel. Be it 14.7 to 1 ( gasoline ), 9 to 1 ( Ethanol ) or even down to 6.5 to 1 for alcohol ( Methanol ). An O2 or Lamba sensor measures free Oxygen in the exhaust and will adjust to stoichmetric....regardless of the fuel used.
Now the problem is when the car goes into Open loop...such as at WOT. Here a fuel map must be used, and the standard FI ECU will not have the correct parameters to provide the correct fuel curve. A standard FI car would go lean at WOT with E85. A flexi-fuel car has a more sophisticated ( and likely multiple )fuel map(s) that can handle the differences in fuel. I suspect a " Wide Band " O2 sensor as well.
Carbed cars definately would need rejetting to run E85. More info here:
As I stated before, E5 and E10 are what you want to use as a high performance fuel for a carbed car. I'd forget about the E85...unless you convert the proper way.
E5 and E10 are more plentiful than people realise. About 30% of the Fuel in the USA is now E5 or E10. Originally introduced as " Gasohol" , it is now so commonplace that Ethanol quantity in gasoline is not even advertised anymore. Most major cities now require E5 and E10 to meet EPA regulations. The higher Octanes such as 92 and 94 usually are E10. With the banning of MTBE in over 20 States, E5 and E10 are now becoming more and more popular. E5 and E10 require no modifications to be used on most "Modern" ( late 70's and newer ) cars.
I'd check withn the local refineries to see what blend they use. Blends change from arear to area and even with the seasons. I believe that Sunoco uses a E10 as a Premium grade and BP may as well.
Great info!........ It looks to be just a timing and jetting thing to get this to work........... Could save ALOT of $$$ in a year with my "Z" The only thing would be if I went out of town. I would have trouble finding E85
Yes, You cant run e85 in any fi car. Only the ones that are flex fuel cars. I ran both e10 and pure gasoline and there was that much of a difference in highway fuel economy.
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Now the problem is when the car goes into Open loop...such as at WOT. Here a fuel map must be used, and the standard FI ECU will not have the correct parameters to provide the correct fuel curve. A standard FI car would go lean at WOT with E85. A flexi-fuel car has a more sophisticated ( and likely multiple )fuel map(s) that can handle the differences in fuel. I suspect a " Wide Band " O2 sensor as well.
It doesnt necessarily have to be a wide band. It is however a heated o2 with a quick warmup. Were talking seconds not minutes. The engine is designed to run on pure gas or e85 or any mixture of the two. So you need data imedialtly upon startup about fuel mixture.
An old myth from cars built in the early seventies or before. All manufacturers ( cars and rubber suppliers ) have modified there components to be totally compatible with Ethanol.
