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Old 04-29-2008, 08:10 PM   #1
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Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Im not sure if this the correct place to post, but if not please move to where it needs to be.

I went to get inspected today and for the 3rd year in a row ive had an issue passing, ususally high co and hc's but this year the hc and co's where fine, its my NOX now, from my understanding it has something to do with the EGR valve or possibly timming. Can someone explain to me what I need to do to test the EGR? I know where its at Im just not sure on the testing method, Im not getting any codes as of now, but this could possibly explain my decreasing gas mileage. Here are the results, also if you have any other ideas that may help I would appreciate it, thanks in advance.


Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 04-29-2008, 08:53 PM   #2
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

I had a problem passing due to high NOX also, what my friend did was disconnect the EGR valve from the carb, (2 hoses connect together on the passenger side of the engine) and plugged them with a screw.

Then he took it through there and it passed with flying colors. I guess my EGR is toast.

I also have an LG4.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:41 PM   #3
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

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I had a problem passing due to high NOX also, what my friend did was disconnect the EGR valve from the carb, (2 hoses connect together on the passenger side of the engine) and plugged them with a screw.

Then he took it through there and it passed with flying colors. I guess my EGR is toast.

I also have an LG4.

hmmm. Im not sure how that would work, I know the egr is used to lower the nox. so if its plugged its not functioning which is not gonna do its job to lower it, wonder what changed to make it work for you.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:32 PM   #4
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

nox is normally a bad egr valve, or clogged passages. Test ur valve at idle and see if rpm varies.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:34 PM   #5
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Well my buddy said that we wanted to get maximum heat across the engine as well. so the gas would burn cleaner. Im not sure how this worked, but it seemed to do the trick.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:43 PM   #6
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

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nox is normally a bad egr valve, or clogged passages. Test ur valve at idle and see if rpm varies.

I know thats what I said in my first post. Im not sure how to test it, thats what im asking as well as other suggestions on it.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:45 PM   #7
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

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Well my buddy said that we wanted to get maximum heat across the engine as well. so the gas would burn cleaner. Im not sure how this worked, but it seemed to do the trick.
Interesting, once I figure out how to test the EGR If its bad I will probally replace it so it works right, thanks for your input though.
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:10 PM   #8
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With the engine idling, apply vacuum directly to the valve. If the engine dies, the valve is working. If the engine does not die, either the valve is not working or the passages are plugged.

If the engine dies, that doesn't mean the EGR "system" is working. Vacuum is applied to the valve per ECM commands via the EGR solenoid. Make sure the vacuum to the solenoid is proper. To verify the solenoid is working, determine which wire is power. With the wires connected, ground the other one - the solenoid should cycle, applying vacuum to the valve, the valve should open and kill the engine at idle.

Excessive ignition advance will also raise NOx. Make sure it is set properly.
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:27 PM   #9
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

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With the engine idling, apply vacuum directly to the valve. If the engine dies, the valve is working. If the engine does not die, either the valve is not working or the passages are plugged.

If the engine dies, that doesn't mean the EGR "system" is working. Vacuum is applied to the valve per ECM commands via the EGR solenoid. Make sure the vacuum to the solenoid is proper. To verify the solenoid is working, determine which wire is power. With the wires connected, ground the other one - the solenoid should cycle, applying vacuum to the valve, the valve should open and kill the engine at idle.

Excessive ignition advance will also raise NOx. Make sure it is set properly.
Is it often for these componets to go bad and not set off an engine light? will the timming effect the nox that much if its off?
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:12 AM   #10
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The electrical circuit of the EGR solenoid is the only thing the ECM can detect. I haven't had any failures in 9 years, even though the exhaust passages were plugged up in the original manifold.

Timing advanced too far will have a definite effect on NOx levels.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:44 AM   #11
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

All of those emission numbers seem a bit high. Not just the NOx.

A comparison for you:
Click the image to open in full size.

You're on the right track with the timing. I was adjusting mine last week. I found it absolutely amazing how even a little teeny tiny change would move the timing by 2 degrees. Definitely made me realize that timing by ear is pretty much impossible.

Let us know how it works out.
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Old 04-30-2008, 01:00 AM   #12
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

They probally are, but as long as they meet standards im fine with that, I wish someone else with an LG4 would post up some numbers to compare too. I have a feeling my timming has a lot to do with it, its got a fairly new converter and a month old 02 sensor, plugs and wires could use a change as well. I do get some pinging from time to time even with 93 octane so im thinking the last mechanic to do it might have jacked it up a bit. Im gonna test the EGR tom and then get into the rest.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:17 AM   #13
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

I havent had a chance to test yet, but on my way home from work I unplugged the hose that connects to the valve directly to see if the car felt different or anything driving home and it had no noticable effect. Does that matter at all?
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File Type: jpg egr2.JPG (9.4 KB, 15 views)
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:06 AM   #14
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Had it tested and it is not working, but it is getting vacuum. I went ahead and ordered a new delco EGR, is there anything else I should do and is switching it out pretty straigh forward?
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:27 AM   #15
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Not opening, or doesn't kill the engine when vacuum is applied at idle?

Switching it out is pretty straight forward. If the exhaust port is clogged, though, that's a lot more involved.
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Old 05-02-2008, 05:26 AM   #16
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

I didnt test it myself because I dont have a pump, but I was told it is getting vacuum but its not functioning, so I assume its not opening. They wanted to charge 300+ to replace it so I said no way.

If it is the egr valve its self is there a way to still test the solenoid if th egr is bad or is it a trial and error thing? I understand what to do to swap the EGR minus if its clogged or something, but if I end up needing to do the solenoid how hard is it?


How can I tell if the exhaust port it clogged and what needs to be done to unclog it?
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Old 05-02-2008, 01:55 PM   #17
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To test the solenoid:

Hook up a vacuum gage to the hose going to the EGR valve so that you can watch the gage while driving. If the gage never shows vacuum under any driving conditions, the solenoid isn't working for one reason or another. The solenoid itself is mounted to a bracket on the passenger side rear corner of the intake manifold - one bolt, one connector, two hoses - piece of cake to replace.

You don't need a vacuum pump to test the EGR valve. Just borrow an engine vacuum port and hook it directly to the EGR valve while the engine is idling - it should kill the engine. If it doesn't, you can feel under the valve while hooking up the vacuum for the diaphragm moving.

If the diaphragm moves but the engine doesn't die, your exhaust passages are plugged. Could be the valve exhaust passage, but not likely.
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Old 05-02-2008, 04:34 PM   #18
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Ok I talked to the shop again who tested this and they took the EGR out and tried cleaning the whole EGR and ports so that if it was clogged it would function and it still didnt, So I assume its not clogged. I think I will just go ahead and replace the solenoid since im replacing the EGR and the solenoid isnt too much.

Does anyone know where I can get a new electrical connector that plugs into the solenoid?

Another question, when I take the EGR out, can I pour seafoam in the manifold there to clean it out some or is that a nono?

Also if I unplug the wire to the solenoid and drive should that set off a code?

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Old 05-03-2008, 01:34 AM   #19
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

do you really think the shop pulled the intake to clean the ports out? Doubtful, did you test as five7 described? It will take a matter of seconds and give you a difinitive answer to if it is in fact the valve or not. Seafoam should be ok as long as you dont pour too much in. We use a similiar product made by BG at my work to do "egr services". Basically you fill a hopper with cleaner and it bolts to where the egr valve goes and slowly administeres a measured amount of cleaner while the engine is running to help clean the passages up some.
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Old 05-03-2008, 04:54 AM   #20
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

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do you really think the shop pulled the intake to clean the ports out? Doubtful, did you test as five7 described? It will take a matter of seconds and give you a difinitive answer to if it is in fact the valve or not. Seafoam should be ok as long as you dont pour too much in. We use a similiar product made by BG at my work to do "egr services". Basically you fill a hopper with cleaner and it bolts to where the egr valve goes and slowly administeres a measured amount of cleaner while the engine is running to help clean the passages up some.

I didnt say they took the manifold off. They took the EGR off of the manifold to make sure it wasnt clogged there...

I plan on testing how he said as soon as I can find someone to borrow the stuff to do it with.

As far as seafoam, once I take the egr out can I just pour a little in the manifold there?, can I start the car with the egr off and pour it in?? I dont want anything crazy to happen and freak out thats why im asing in advance.
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Old 05-03-2008, 07:33 PM   #21
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Do plugs and wires have any effect on nox? does oil?
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:23 PM   #22
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

If I unplug the solenoid and drive around, should it set a code?
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:05 AM   #23
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Mine set a code but didn't turn the SES light on. Weird, never knew that would happen.

Plugs, wires, and oil tend to have an effect on CO and HC, although raised CO or HC can lower NOx.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:16 PM   #24
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Ok, thanks for the info! I will post up again as soon as the part comes and i get it changed.
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Old 05-08-2008, 09:47 PM   #25
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Ok the new one came in today. I got the new one and pushed the disc up and then covered te hole and it would stay up. I tried that with the new one and it would just fall, so I guess it was leaking or just gone out. also with the egr off i tried to start the car and it would run a second and then die I figured that was normal. Anyways I got the new one on there and it was much easier than I was expecting. Now if I reach on the underside with the car runnining it starts stumbling like crazy, hopefully it will pass now, will post up when it does.
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Old 05-08-2008, 09:58 PM   #26
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

sounds like you defently found your problem and got it fixed. Good luck with the inspection, you should be good to go!
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:18 AM   #27
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

What a headache! i went back for the retest and it failed again, he aborted the test once he realized it was going to fail so that I didnt haft to pay for another inspection. Im having the timming checked out later today and then im getting a fresh oil change so if the lower timming trys to higher the other numbers. Hopefully it will pass after that or im outta ideas.
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:59 PM   #28
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Quote:
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Im having the timming checked out later today and then im getting a fresh oil change so if the lower timming trys to higher the other numbers.

Confusing. Anyway did it still fail for nox?
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:10 PM   #29
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

He wasnt sure which one it failed becasue he didnt let the test complete, I was fixing to post an update right before you posted this, lol....

I took it back today and it passed! Had the oil changed, then went and had the timming backed down and it passed nicely. glad I didnt haft to put any more money in to it. Here are the numbers. Much much lower than before. It ran horrible with the timming backed down, I had to switch it back up I was afraid the car was gonna die, lol

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Old 09-07-2010, 12:20 PM   #30
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Re: Failed emmisons due to high NOX, please help troubleshoot

Quote:
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With the engine idling, apply vacuum directly to the valve. If the engine dies, the valve is working. If the engine does not die, either the valve is not working or the passages are plugged.

If the engine dies, that doesn't mean the EGR "system" is working. Vacuum is applied to the valve per ECM commands via the EGR solenoid. Make sure the vacuum to the solenoid is proper. To verify the solenoid is working, determine which wire is power. With the wires connected, ground the other one - the solenoid should cycle, applying vacuum to the valve, the valve should open and kill the engine at idle.
Should a good EGR solenoid allow vaccuum to pass through when it's off the car?

Is there an ohm check for it?

I can look in Helms tonight but I'm at work.

(87 LG4 application. Valve holds vaccuum / moves freely. Intake passages are clear.)
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