Formula_Wolf

Hey,

I wonder if these emission guys are just trying to load me up with bs or if they just want to try and score some tune up cash from me. One guy seems cool and talks on my level about tuning the carb when the other talks about all these diagnostics and charges to help tune my car to pass emissions. Dude even went as far as showing me "how sensitive the 4,000 dollar emissions computer is" by spraying brake cleaner near the exhaust sensor. Lol I was thinking... "yeah if you sprayed brake cleaner in my face, I too would be able to tell the difference in oxygen readings. I'm gonig to take the car back to the other guy who was very knowledgeable about tuning a carb to meet the 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio mixture so I can pass the emissions test. It did pass the prior year with a different carb, but again I had to pay some emissions mechanic money to tune it so it can pass. I'd hate to have to do that every year. I lost 200 dollars the last time for labor charges, I guess thats 2hrs of work or so. When they say that the only way to accurately tune a carb to pass emissions is to hook it to a 4,000 machine and there is no other real way to get it right, is that bs or true? Does this mean every carb guy goes through the same risks everytime he wants to pass an emissions test?

Here is what I have to work with and am working with

305 LO3
525 Road Demon
Accel HEI distributor ( did not change the springs from what it came with )
New plugs, new wires, new oil, new gas, new carb, new fuel pump,
Malory regulator
Mr Gasket mini fuel pump 6 to 8psi
Auto Meter A/F ratio gauge hooked to a new Oxygen Sensor
Vacuum gauge
Automatic trans
Screw driver!

Here are the settings I'm going with

> Fp guage set to 7 1/2 psi
> Float levels set between the 1st lowest mark and the 2nt mark recommended by Demon
> timing, another mystery from what was a computer controlled engine. Set initial timing to Zero, then went with 10 Degrees advanced using the **** on a craftsman timing light which makes the timing marker appear that it is still at zero, first larges valley on the stock marker plate
> Idle speed.. thats always been a question but in park it currently idles around 1200 / 1300 and 700 or so in gear, tried 1100 and 600 but it seems I get more vac at a higher rpm
> 4 Mixture screws on the demon, pushed in all the way, pulled out until vac dropped, then pushed back in 1/8th of a turn, each turned an 8th of a time equally to achieve this
> A / f ratio gauge, this seemed like fine tuning after I got the max amount of vac the above bullet. It was reading perfectly stoich when it was hot outside, cold test ran a bit rich but I failed emissions with to many co's, obviously went to rich and it didnt lie to me but driving seemed that it didnt run that rich, it would run leaner on the road and richer at idle. I recently readjusted the idle speed to 1200 / 1300 for max vac at max rpm and retuned the mixture screws so that my guage would read stoich while in gear. Right now that is where it is perfectly at. I did a drive test that showed the ratio stay that way while I was under a load or in gear. The second though when I let off the gas it would go very lean. To avoid engine damage or running to hot I gave it a few revs putting some gas back in the cylinders and it would run stoich again but eventually fade back down to lean. Basically it wouldn't run at the passing ration of 14.7:1 unless it was under some type of load. Taking these facts, if I increase the fuel ratio, then I will idle rich and run rich while in gear but idle perfectly at 14.7:1. So I really dont know where to put it, somewhere in the middle I guess. This carb is so sensative. Even an 8th of a turn on each screw or less will either accomplish this or throw it into an overly rich reading. At that point I try to bearly move the primary mixture screws but not to far off from the secondaries. Actually I should do that, I should just go for a 10th of a turn on all 4.

I know this is an info bomb lol... but any tips would be greatly appreciated. I just hope to pass emissions then later I can fine tune things if needed like... jets, accelerator pumps, power valves, vacuum secondary springs... whatever those springs are technically called in your distributor that compensate adjustments using the force of distributor as it spins. Hmm some kind of spark advance? I forget, I only know what I know from what this car has taught me and things I pick up here and there from this website and other internet resources. If you have made it this far in reading my post and your brain is not fried yet, do you think I can tune this setup myself without having some 4,000 machine tell me the emission facts in it's finest detail? Carb guys shouldn't need 4,000 machines for calibration! That just sounds like lol brake cleaner.....

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

First, forget what the expensive sniffing equipment says, this set-up is illegal in all 50 of the United States (assuming you're in the U.S. - wouldn't be legal in Canada or Europe, either, from what I've gathered).

Second, the factory went to EFI for a reason - it burns cleaner. You might be able to get this system to sniff clean enough under the test conditions to "pass", but there is no way it will drive properly when so adjusted.

I know there are people who say, "You can tune a carb to run as clean as EFI." Maybe, but figure on expensive test equipment at your disposal, precision equipment such as very small and precise drill bits, and a blank check for time to tweak out the system. Even then, there is a big difference between the metering and fuel dispensing between carb and EFI, with the advantages all going to EFI.

At the end of the day, the system is still illegal on your car.

(FWIW, the "real" carb gurus have and know how to use $4k equipment.)

cricketrs

hello i have a 91 rs camaro with a carberated 350 out of a g20 van i have a set of shorty headers no cat and flowmasters thats all ................my uncle wants to race me for 100 bucks in his bone stock 94 impala ss should i pull it?

Formula_Wolf

Illegal huh? Care to enlighten me of why? If it were illegal, why wouldn't the emissions tech let me know? Sorry man, I'm really not buying that my setup is illegal without some type of explanation.

Damon

If it was originally an electronic fuel injected engine you can't put a carb on it. That's pretty much it. I am unaware of any place in the US that does a sniffer at the tailpipe but no visual inspection. Maybe a shop that is willing to "play ball" with the hotrod crowd, but technically it's illegal everywhere in the US.

trumps2000

iTrader: (2)

Was it orginally EFI or CC Qjet? I wonder if it would be legal for him to install the CC Qjet. A properly functioning stock setup even midly modified wouldn't have much trouble passing.

sheardog

Just went through the sniffer last month in Portland Oregon with my 87 carbed 5.0, all they did was put a probe in my tailpipe for about 20 seconds with no visual inspect that i could see( they only checked one tailpipe) then charged me 21 bucks and sent me on my way. Just thought i would chime in.

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

Lol I always loved the "YOU CAN'T PUT A CARB ON.....IT"S ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! "

Do a quick google search for efi to carb swap legal law and the only thing you'll get is a couple forums of people saying it illegal because someone brought up how to swap efi to carb. Where the idea came from is most likely Australia where it is illegal to swap and engine twice the size of the factory one so 2L could only go to a 4L and the engine swapped had to be of the same year or newer. In the USA I have yet to find a Federal law dictating the changing of factory car components to that of another system. Much less from an efi to a carb specifically. If this were the case all the green tree people converting there cars to run on vegetable oil would be illegaly modifying there cars. Hell one guy was working on a prototype engine that ran on Mountain Dew and I saw it run. Was on Cnn one day.

As for State laws there might be a law on books regarding this but again I have not seen anything in regards to this after several searchs and time spent on the California Law registry. As long as the vechile meats the Smog requirements and the parts swapped are CARB legal then it doesn't matter what it does to make it. In Cali the CARB legal issue is what make efi to carburator illegal as to my knowledge no carb is C.A.R.B. certifed. This would indeed make it the case in Cali and any other state that imposses CARB rulling but there is no law stating it is illegal it's only illegal because no carb is qualified.

As for states that do not Impose CARB which I belive is every state except California there is no law stating it is illegal to go from efi to carb to my knowledge and research. And much less in states that do not smog test such as Florida my state where if it runs as long as it's not to loud are creating a hazardous situation they could give two f's less.

So depending on where the OP is depends on what he can do.
If your not in Cali get a wideband unit. I use an LC-1 hooked up to a DB-9 gauge. This will give you your afr through the whole band. Then tune the car for 14.7 to 15.2. 15.2 being lean to help cut back on emissions as your burning less fuel cutting down total emission count. Tune that threw the whole band with half throttle being in the 13.6 to 14.2 range and wot being around 12.8. Advance timing a few degrees to allow the charge to being burning slightly quicker meaning a longer time to burn before the exhaust valve opens allowing for a better percentage of fuel to combust before leaving the engine to help cut some back on the emissions also. Just make sure your not knocking in wot and if so to just pass the emission test that day jet the wot mode to be slightly richer say a 12.4 if neede to curb against the advance timing or cut back the total timing at wot.

The LC-1 and DB-9 together runs around 200 bucks I belive which is much better than the 4k equipment your talking about. And it's a great diagnostic tool when your driving around to catch if issues pop up as AFR is completely integral to an engines performance.

Sorry for the rant hope this helps!

Formula_Wolf

See now this is the type of reply I'm looking for. Technical facts and common sense. Not just some blurt about carbs being illegal with no facts behind the statement. I'll head up to the garage and try this out and go for a road test. I feel like I"m so close, just a few turns of the mixture screws here or there, some timing and this car is on the road burning as clean as a carb can get. Also if I want to get really technical about it I can just wire my volt meter up to the oxygen sensor and pull some numbers. According to this tech page 400mv equals your 14.7:1 perfect combustion. http://www.bob2000.com/carb.htm . I'm guessing you want to stay as close to this ratio as possible at idle and during normal driving conditions.

This makes me wonder if a person hears that their state law does not allow them to change original parts, they believe that this law is carried over across the whole usa. I do not know if people really understand that every state is different and these laws are changing as the years go by. It may even get as specific to what county you live in, not just the state.

Lets jump through a timeline here. I can vouch for three states that I have lived in within the past 9 years with this bird. When I first got it there were no visual inspections, no exhaust testing just a safty test in Texas. Horn works, head lights, seatbelts, random stuff and your good to go.

Later they adopted the tail pipe and dyno machine, this is the 4k system that I was recently told about. Who knows what it cost when it first came out, I'm sure it was more than 4k. Seriously though... fat chance that some one actually has one of these in their home, seriously... So any way I moved from Dallas Texas to a location in east texas, different county out there with the country folks. At the time the county had not adopted to the newer standards that you find in Dallas. Family in another part of Texas at the time told me their shops did not use tail pipe testing either and the reason being is because the town consists of simple low income workers and farmers. Failing these cars would be detrimental to their economy. The people simply could not afford the repairs thought they needed their vehicles! Carb swaps during this time, in these counties was definitely not illegal. It appears that they only did safty inspections, and were very light on emissions unless you lived in a bigger city somewhere in Tx.

As the time line moves so did I, to Virginia! Mmm east coast living and neighbors to Washington DC. The part of Va I lived in was very strict on vehicle testing. They used safety inspects + emissions that included the law that your vehicle had to have all of the factory parts included. Weather the inspect knows what came on your vehicle or not is on him. My first test there failed because I had changed my air cleaner! They wanted to see the factory black snorkel so it pretty much was a pop the hood give us 30 bucks screw over. I hunted the junk yards for the stock exhaust manifolds, snorkel and random smog parts then went to a different shop. At the time I had a 4 barrel Holley carb. The A / F and timing was probably off as the other shop failed me for high NOx, I gather it was running lean and am glad they caught it. Paid the dude 200 bucks to tweak it out and he passed me with the carb! This was roughly 3 years ago. I've wondered because some of these cars came with a quadrajet that this might be the reason you can get shops to pass your 3rd gen with a carb. Oh lets not forget the fact that several people I talked to urged me to get a po box in Maryland, then register my car there. Why? Cause they say at the time Maryland Does not have emission testing! This means carbs must be ok there cause no one is really enforcing laws that give a krap.

Fast forward to a week ago! I've been talking to the emissions inspectors here in Ga. Yes, I have moved out of Va. There is NO Safty inspection! They dont test your horns lights, turning signals seat belts, nothing similar was checked either. I passed a 05 grand marquis without seeing that check. Oh and depending on the year of your car can affect the test as well. There was no dyno test for the 05, just a tailpipe test and gas cap test it seemed. Well for the 89 bird it went on the dyno and did two types of test. 15mph and 25mph. I forget where but it is said that this is to simulate an average morning drive in some city that set the standard. They did do a visual test. This inspector even told me that it doesnt matter what you have under the hood, as long as it passes the emissions test they really don't care. I do not believe that an inspector would want to lose his license or job by telling a stranger this. The whole shop was walking by gawking at the carb lol. The inspector even asked if I wanted to sell it. Another inspector has been giving me tips on how to tune it so it can pass.

So I cant prove that there is some law out there that may have been skewed by technical facts on what might be ok for specific model cars or years or age but I'm fairly certain that right now, this part of Georgia does not care if you have installed a carb on a vehicle that was originally computer controlled with a fuel injection system. Get me by 5 more years and I'm a classic who will no longer have to deal with these emissions tests, as long as the laws don't shift again. Carb's swaps like this being illegal? I don't buy that. Maybe if your fulltime job is a emissions lawyer who regulates laws down to the specific counties across the whole usa then I might, I might believe you. As for now, I'm gonna go ahead and say that this is not a fact, its nothing more than a RUMOR!

Just for fun... I dare you people to call your local emissions shop and ask them if you can legally swap your EFI to a Carb, then post what they say here. I'm sure we would get several random facts across the states.

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

I just passed the test here in WA state. No visual, just tail pipe. I have a 350 with a 770 Holley (roller cam, headers, air gap intake, roller rockers, vortec heads). The wideband gives you one number, where their machine (probably a 4-gas analyzer) will give you 4 different readings that guide the mechanic. When I had my wideband I couldn't get it to pass, but honestly I'm new to the carb stuff, so it may have been error on my part. Luckily my Dad is a mechanic and he happens to have one of those expensive machines, and he got it to pass.

I don't know if it would have been easier or harder if the carb was smaller, but I'm in the process of building a 400 and I didn't want to buy the carb twice.

After trying (and failing) for three years to tune my non-daily driven TBI vehicle to run it's best, I finally gave up and went to a carb. The straw that broke the camels back was when I could no longer get my TBI vehicle to pass emissions. I still don't know why, but I got tired of screwing with it. My Dad said "pull that $hit off of there and put a carb on it; I'll get it to pass". He got it to pass on the first try, and did I mention, it doesn't have a converter on it either.

jtsk

iTrader: (3)

Memphis, TN vehicle inspection is tail pipe sniff only as well. True enough, a carb is hard, I mean HARD to pass though without tuning the car to where it won't hardly run, but it can be done.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Fact: In the United States, you can only replace factory equipment that affects emissions with like parts or certified replacements, if the vehicle is used on public roads, highways, streets, or by-ways. This is Federal law, and is only superseded by state or local law where exemption is granted for more strict regulations (such as California).

Fact: In '85, the equipment installed on f-bodies was either computer controlled carb or EFI.

Fact: A Road Demon is not a certified replacement for either a computer controlled carb or EFI.

Those are facts. Whether or not your emissions tech said anything or looked under the hood doesn't change those facts.

trumps2000

iTrader: (2)

57 Where would this board be without you?

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

57 while I'm not calling you a liar I have yet to be given the Federal Ordinace that proclaims this act as illegal. All I'm hearing is it's illegal but yet no backing up the statement with a source giving proof only proof you have given so far is.....you say it's so. Please provide a link to a federal site with the statue number listed or ordinace stating that carb swaps are illegal in a production car. Until I see that I have yet to have found any thing stating to the contrary.

To go one step farther I have contacted my local DMV in regards to swapping a carb into my TBI engine and was told that there was no issues with doing such a thing as long as the car met the required safety rules to be road legal. They told me I could take the engine out cut holes in the floor board and peddle it like the flintstone mobile as long as it could maintain a legal speed limit. Not cause harm to other drivers, have required lights (ie brake lights, turn signals), and had valid tags they wouldn't care.
(I love Florida!)

Now to be fair when asked about removing the airbag, which I've already done they told me it was illegal but again in Florida they have no vechile emissions or safety testing so it would never be noticed or caught.

trumps2000

iTrader: (2)

http://autos.yahoo.com/owning/mainta...iss%01qamuffle

http://www.state.me.us/dep/pubs/is-tamp.htm

http://www.tceq.state.tx.us/implemen...tampering.html

http://epa.ohio.gov/dapc/echeck/othe...ms/tamper.aspx

Is your google broken? Why does 57 have to search for you? I mean don't get me wrong I have some mods that aren't considered emissions legal, like changing the timing, but I I don't need to see the law to know that I'm not supposed to do that. You've never heard of someone get pulled over for having no cat? Its the same thing ... illegal.

trumps2000

iTrader: (2)

Damn no wonder why, your lucky no emission testing in your state. Still not legal though.

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for those links but after going trough them again there is no law against carb swapping an engine.

The Federal Department of Transportation recognizes that any emissions related law set down in California is applicable everywhere else. If something is legal in Ca. It is legal in Florida, New York, and even Alaska.

California's laws on engine swaps are rather simple really.

The engine has to come from the same class of vehicle as defined by weight. Even if it could be done, a Ford Focus cannot accept an an engine from a Ford F750 superduty.. it can however accept an engine from a Mustang Cobra R.

The engine must either be as new or as newer than the car it is going into. A 71 chevelle can accept an LS1 from a 98 camaro.

Or the engine must be made to conform to the emissions laws of the newer vehicle. That 97 camaro can accept a 71 Chevelle engine.. provided it can accept all the emissions related controls and pass both the visual and the tailpipe test of the 97 camaro.

No where does it state that you cannot swap an engine from one make and model into another make and model. Only that ALL emissions related equipment must be in place and functional and that it must conform to the newest part.. either the engine or the chassis it is bolted to.

So again Carb swaps are not illegal as long as the emissions control equipment is still present in the vehicle. In that regards if the engine is older then the car the emissions equipment from the car must be present as made at the factory. If the engine is newer than the car the emissions of the newer engine and all related emission parts must be swapped.

Plain and simple.
Again a 71 Chevelle 454 can go right into a 98 Camaro as long as the chevelle engine has provisions for the emissions control eqiupment and the camaro still retains those devices and the devices are operational.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The carb is an emissions control device.

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

http://www.familycar.com/CLASSROOM/emission.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automob...ssions_control

Still not seeing a carb on those list.

And doing a search for carburetor emission device and list of emission control devices gives no results that imply legally that carb is an emission control device per legal definition. If it we're than legally our foot would be an emission control device and we would have to remove it from the gas pedal to cut down on emissions. Oh wait even better!!!
Will get rid of cars that will be the best emission control device ever!!!!

How about this?
I'll swap a 1969 454 big block in and go off 1969 laws back when no one gave a $$$$ about pollution and emissions.
There's a point where you just get ridiculous about stuff. Legally speaking you can swap what ever you want to into your car as listed in my post above and unless your state is a **** about inspections no one cares and no one will fault you because guess what? No one cares and no one will enforce it if it even we're real....except in Cali.

chesterfield

Maybe if you look at it this way. The efi was connected to a piece of emissions related equipment called the ecm. It is no longer connected to the ecm. And the ecm was connected to another piece of emissions related equipment called the check engine light. Plain and simple. You have tampered with the emissions system.
Your assertion that you can legally swap older engines into newer cars in california is completely false.
http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/80_BARRe...uidelines.html

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

As per your link:

Computer Controls

If a computer–controlled engine is installed in a non–computerized vehicle, the "CHECK ENGINE" light, the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) diagnostic link, and all sensors, switches, and wiring harnesses needed to make the system fully functional must also be installed.




The same goes in reverse.
If you install a 454 big block into the car lets say a 98 camaro for instance. All emissions previsions for the 98 must also be installed. Thus you would modify the engine to accept the sensors and equipment to make it a legal swap. The carb is not an emission control device and as such any ecm parameters involving the fuel injection can be ignored as long as emmisions are met at the tailpipe. Thus the setup would be tuned to turn off all check engine lights involving the injection system and throttle body. For instance a 98 camaro requires an egr system as per stock configuration. Thus the 454's intake manifold would require an egr provision to be "legal".


It might be complicated but it can be done legally. It all just takes legal difinition to get around certain constraints such as what your saying. And also you have shown me a cali law not a federal law. So again in Florida nothing is stopping me from putting that 454 into a 98 camaro as long as emissions equipment is retained. And in Florida it doesn't matter anyways cuz the emission law is not enforced to begin with. Thus why the 98 T/A has a vortec S/C a racing cam, long tube headers, no cats, straight back exhaust with just mufflers, no egr, and has 72lb injectors on it all of these things are illegal but have been on the car for almost two years with no issues. I've been pulled over and popped the hood for the Florida Highway Patrol officer and his words are. Does it have cats? No officer it doesn't. Ok thats a nice ride don't be racing it. And then let me off with a warning. I was pulled over for doing a california stop at a stop sign. And got no ticket either.



It all depends on where you live and who is enforcing what. I'm in a red state so laws are lax to non existent when it comes to "Saving the Enviroment" so again legally speaking it is legal as long as the provisions by law are met or you have a lawyer who can dispute the legal definition of a laws terms such as what is and is not an emission control device.

chesterfield

Where does it say that?
From my link:

"Engine and emission control systems must be in an engine–chassis configuration certified by the California Air Resources Board (ARB) or U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The engine must meet or exceed the requirements for the year and class of vehicle in which it is installed."

No 1971 454 engine-chassis configuration has ever been certified by CARB or EPA for use in emissions controlled vehicles. Heck, in California Pontiac had to put Chevy and Olds V8s in the 1979-and up Trans Am because they couldn't get their v8s certified here.

From my link:
"No internal or external engine modifications (cams, pistons, intakes, etc.) may be performed unless the parts are ARB–exempted or EPA–certified for use in the installed engine."

No 1971 cam, piston, intake, etc. has been exempted or certified for use on emissions controlled vehicles.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Wolfie, get your head out of the sand. You're trying to justify noncompliance with ignorance.

"Etc." includes the carburetor.

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

Ignorance is a southern specialty now isn't it?

How about we all just agree that we disagree on the subject.
I'm still saying as long as the rules as I have been provided are met there's nothing wrong with the swap.

And I'll continue to drive my completely illegal cars that are insured by State Farm after being inspected by them and knowing full well the modifications done to the cars and being told it was fine; and you can continue to not do what ever it is your not doing with engine swaps in fear of the man coming down on you.

To each their own correct?

Boosted1.9

so whats being said is, anything having ANYTHING to do with air or fuel is an emissions part ?

so say my Chevette had a working ram air hood, it would be illegal because I modified the OEM emissions equipment ?

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

Cali would love to make you believe this.
But the answer is no it would not be illegal. Despite what some are saying in here.
Because every car part according to them is illegal unless its oem or CARB certified.

Boosted1.9

Yah I was being sarcastic :P and I don't own a chevette LOL.
But seriously I have looked and looked, as well as called my local emissions shop and both mechanics I talked to and they said the Carbs are NOT emissions equipment.

If you really dont believe it, if you arent in california go to a shop that has a State Inspection License for a quote on installing an aftermarket carb or somethin.

It is a $10,000 Fine in the state of maryland and more in some other states to tamper with ANY emissions equipment on OEM emissions equipped vehicles. Unless it is being replaced with an OEM or EPA approved replacement.

And the other shop i just talked to gave me a quote on replacing my injection system with a carb

trumps2000

iTrader: (2)

Ah ignorance is bliss.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Ob boy.



Some people just cannot be taught, and some people no matter how hard they try just don't understand certain things. Like putting a square peg in a round hole, etc.

If you don't understand the difference between a secondary storage tank and heater to run a diesel engine on vegetable oil, well, I don't know what to say to help you..

So in California you cannot do it period.



From the EPA regarding engine switching:

"The federal tampering prohibition is contained in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42
U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or rendering
inoperative any emission control device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor
vehicle engine prior to its sale and delivery to an ultimate purchaser and prohibits any person from
knowingly removing or rendering inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and
delivery, and the causing thereof. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a
manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Section 203(a)(3)(B) of the Act
prohibits any person from manufacturing or selling, or offering to sell, or installing, any part or
component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine where a
principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or
element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, and where the person
knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or is being installed for
such use. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section is $2,500.
EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is
removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine
switching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA
(Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified
configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions
are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test
Procedure would be necessary to make this determination."

Here is where it gets interesting:

"A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved)
by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an
application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to
production. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, engine
calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or
engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use,
in vehicles of the upcoming model year.
For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any
person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all
emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of
the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that
emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical
information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle
manufacturer."


Notice "Engine Calibration". If you don't understand what that means, well, I can't help you.

Carrying on:

"The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with
another gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves
diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine.
Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration
is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle
chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a
conversion could be done legally."

I guess this covers the Veggie folks in theory.


And:

"It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehicle
matches exactly to anv certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis, there are
some substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement. Vehicle chassis and engine
designs of one vehicle manufacturer are very distinct from those of another, such that it is generally not
possible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified
3
configuration. Therefore, practical considerations will generally limit engine switches to installation of
another engine which was certified to be used in that same make and model (or a "twin" of that make
and model, e.g., Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Calais). In addition, converting a vehicle into a
different certified configuration is likely to be very difficult, and the cost may prove prohibitive."


So, a 1985 EFI trans-am can probably get a 1987 carb engine from a camaro, assuming the whole thing was fork lifted. A 1989 trans-am cannot get any carb engine, because none was available in 1989.


So nothing after '87 is getting a carb regardless, because as outlined it is federally illegal.


But you guys want to take a 1985-1987 fbody, replace the EFI with a carb, or even replace the carb with an aftermarket carb. Can we do it?

Well 1) The above outlines that the calibration must remain the same. 2) The configuration must be "certified". Neither will happen if it was tampered with.


The 1970 clean air act was specifically for commercial tampering. (i.e, professional mechanic, dealer, etc).

The clean air act of 1990 is much more specific, the following is a short list of "Tampering"

"
* Removing the EGR valve or plugging its vacuum lines
* Removing or disconnecting the PCV valve
* Removing the stock air cleaner and heat riser duct plumbing
* Removing the catalytic converter
* Removing or disconnecting the air pump
* Removing or modifying the stock distributor vacuum advance/retard
* Altering the stock ignition advance mechanism or timing curve
* Replacing the stock distributor with an aftermarket unit that is not emissions certified
* Modifying, removing or replacing the stock computer or PROM chip with a non-certified component
* Blocking the heat riser duct under the intake manifold
* Knocking out the filler restrictor on the fuel tank inlet pipe
* Replacing the stock non-vented gas cap with a vented cap
* Removing or disconnecting the fuel vapor recovery canister
* Changing the idle mixture or stock carburetor jetting
* Removing or modifying the carburetor choke
* Modifying or replacing the carburetor accelerator pump with non-certified components
* Installing an intake manifold or racing manifold that lacks provisions for the stock EGR valve and/or a heat riser duct
* Installing a carburetor that lacks the stock emission hookups
* Installing non-certified fuel injectors
* Installing a long duration "racing" cam that is not emissions-certified
* Installing exhaust headers that lack provisions for a heat riser valve, an air cleaner preheat stove or fittings for an oxygen sensor (if required)
* Installing valve covers with open breathers or no fittings for a PCV valve
* Installing any induction, fuel or ignition system component that is NOT emissions legal
"

Oh, and here is the Florida law (your state) that you are probably in Violation of.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/air/rules/fac/62-243.pdf



-- Joe

chesterfield

Except for the 1989 Olds Custom Cruiser Station wagon with the 4bbl Olds 307. And probably some caprice station wagons in there with the 307. (Yeah, I know, its trivial but that's my style.)

DoubleV

In my time, I've owned about 4 older carbed cars I had to pass a sniffer with and every one passed with flying colors. Most if not all those engines were not running their best either but were mostly stock.

One of those cars, however, was an Olds Cutlass with a sleightly hopped 403, headers, dual cats, EGR, and an un-tuned Q-jet. Probably ran the cleanest out of all of them too.

I guess I just don't understand why people have such a hard time passing sniffers with carbed engines.

On the subject of if it's legal or not...who the flunk cares! 90% of us are running illegal hotrods, so I'm not sure why you guys are busting the OP's chops about this ( unless I'm missing something here ).

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No chop bustin' going on. Just stating the facts.

The OP was having difficulty getting his carb'd 305 to pass 1989 model year standards. What year was your 403? I'm guessing very early 80's at the latest. The standards were stiffened during the 3rd gen years.

You might be able to get a carb to pass 1989 model year standards if you have access to the right equipment and can fine tweak the carb circuits. But, you've placed yourself at a severe handicap by trying to get a carb to do it. The factory went to computer feedback controls and EFI for a reason - they burn cleaner.

In a situation like this, it's easier to get TBI to run as good as a carb than it is to get a carb to run as clean as TBI.