narva*2010

Afternoon users,

I was seeking some advice for setting up a 4150 to run 1:1 secondaries. I have followed sofakingdom Holley tune sticky, and at present, primary side runs a treat. I disconnected secondaries to do this. Problem starts when I connect secondaries in progressive state.

It has what appears to be lean spot on tip in, not an uncommon problem it seems. I have only run the quarter mile once here in Australia, and was ejected for running 10 sec without cage etc.

I ran that on 1:1. When I reconnect the linkage at 1:1 after sofakingdom directions, the flat spot is reduced. i know it is not ideal, but I enjoy the car with 1:1 and am very keen to stick with it. It is one of those 'street / strip' combo's.

My question for the big brains out there in USA is this, do I isolate the secondaries from the primaries as I did with Sofakingdom sticky and connect accel cable direct to secondary linkage and tune secondaries the same way I did with primaries, or do I just set the secondaries up to mirror the current primary set up and make fine adjustments from there?

I have an Aust built 396 naturally aspirated small block with @ 650hp at crank. solid roller Comp Cam, 268/272 dur 112 LSA. 12.3:1 comp. Around 7" vac at idle. Runs E85. Running a tight 8 1/2" 5200 stall converter with 4:11 diff ratio. I have a wide band Autometer gauge as a guide to AFR.

Carby is a tad big for the applicaion, it's a 950cfm Holley Ultra HP.

I'm not too concerned with fuel economy, but I do not want excessive richness to exacerbate bore wear and dilute oil with this E85 ****.

I have been dealing with a Holley rep from the States who seems very switched on, it's just difficult to get in touch with him.

Out of all the sites I've looked at, this one seems packed with blokes who are pretty switched on!

Any assistance would be appreciated

Damon

You sure give us a lot of credit for having big brains here in the states!

A typical progressive-linkage 4bbl has a very rudimentary idle circuit system on the secondary side. No way it'll ever work right just installing a 1:1 linkage. The baseplate and metering blocks are different, in addition to the calibration of pretty much everything being a little different.

You really need a carb built for 1:1. Creating your own out of a progressive-linkage 4bbl is likely to be an exercise in extreme frustration.

narva*2010

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Thanks for the reply Damon.

The carby I'm running is the fairly recent Holley Ultra HP range. Direct from Holley, it has a factory link to change from Progressive to 1:1. There are varying ratio's of opening based on the position of this link - which is adjustible. Ie, normal progressive or 90 / 10 etc.

I took the carby off yesterday and had a look at the metering blocks. The primary and secondary have H142 stamped in both blocks- (I'm not sure if it is a part number), but to the naked eye, they look identical externally. (Not sure internally) Using my compressor, I lightly blew air through the various circuits and the air exits at the same points in each metering block. They both have the same size idle jets which from memory was 29 and emulsion jets are the same size. The Ultra HP has a bank of 5 emulsion jets running down each side of what I think is the idle circuit slot / corridor, 3 in each bank are blanks. Blanks are in the same positions in front and rear metering blocks.

With the secondary metering block, the PV was plugged and the PVCR's were blanks. All other IAB and HSAB are identical front to back in the carby and was how it came from Holley. The only difference is the secondary accel pump is a 50cc, the primary a 30cc and the squirter size is a little larger at the back (from memory)

So, in-lieu of this, are you able to tell me if it is able to be calibrated for true 1:1 as you alluded to, or would I be wasting my time? And yeap, so far it has been an exercise in frustration! I'm kind of enjoying it though.

What I'm thinking about doing, is drilling out the PVCRs the same diameter as the front, starting off with the same size main jets as the front, putting a PV in the secondary block (yeap I said it), then increasing main jet size as I need it for good cruise AFR and increasing PVCR for good WOT AFR.

The model number for the carby is 80845HB for your info. It's an E85 carb.

Your thoughts?

And I stand by what I said. Some smart blokes on this site and I'd value your input.

narva*2010

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Thanks for the reply Damon.

The carby I'm running is the fairly recent Holley Ultra HP range. Direct from Holley, it has a factory link to change from Progressive to 1:1. There are varying ratio's of opening based on the position of this link - which is adjustible. Ie, normal progressive or 90 / 10 etc.

I took the carby off yesterday and had a look at the metering blocks. The primary and secondary have H142 stamped in both blocks- (I'm not sure if it is a part number), but to the naked eye, they look identical externally. They both have the same size idle jets which from memory was 29 and emulsion jets are the same size. The Ultra HP has a bank of 5 emulsion jets running down each side of what I think is the idle slot or corridor, 3 in each bank are blanks. Same positions in front and rear metering blocks.

With the secondary metering block, the PV was plugged and the PVCR's were blanks. All other IAB and HSAB are identical front to back in the carby and was how it came from Holley. The only difference is the secondary accel pump is a 50cc, the primary a 30cc and the squirter size is a little larger at the back (from memory)

So, in-lieu of this, are you able to tell me if it is able to be calibrated for true 1:1 as you alluded to, or would I be wasting my time? And yeap, so far it has been an exercise in frustration!

What I'm thinking about doing, is drilling out the PVCRs the same diameter as the front, starting off with the same size main jets as the front, putting a PV in the secondary block (yeap I said it), then increasing main jet size as I need it for good cruise AFR and increasing PVCR for good WOT AFR.

The model number for the carby is 80845HB for your info. It's an E85 carb.

Your thoughts?

And I stand by what I said. Some smart blokes on this site and I'd value your input.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

did you change the secondary power valve to something over 10 like 105? the info from summit says its a 4.5 from holley.

then you set wot afr with the secondary jets ONLY, the primaries should be the cruise characteristics as mentioned in the sticky. but thats with carbs that have the progressive linkage you may want to go back to that for simplicities sake.

what is your idle timing and total?

Damon

Well, OK, how about we try this on for size:

Since the carb came with a linkage to convert it over to 1:1, it must be capable of it. I haven't used an Ultra series personally, so I didn't know that.

That being said, just because you change the linkage doesn't mean it's calibrated for 1:1. It was delivered out of the box as a progressive linkage carb so it makes sense it would calibrated to work that way out of the box. So who would know what would need to be changed calibration-wise when converting it to 1:1?

Probably Holley, since they made the carb. That would be my first call. The 1:1 carbs I've seen have been set up basically "equal" on both sides, since both sides are doing the exact same thing at exactly the same time. Maybe there are little differences like using slightly different power valves or little things like that, but it would be my guess that they will recommend you set it up "square" as a starting point.

narva*2010

Thanks for the feedback fellas.

Jwfirebird, I see that these are listed as having a 4.5 PV front and back, but the secondary metering block was actually blanked in mine - From Holley. Regarding PV, My cruise vacuum is around 10+ depending on speed / throttle position, up to 15" at 100km/h, so when they arrive (had to order from states) I plan on trying High Flow 8.5 front and rear. I may even go higher.

I'm running an ICE ignition system with crank trigger. Because of the cam size 268/272 112 LSA .641 @50, my timing is 25 base 28 total, all in by 1450rpm. It is adjustable so I vary total timing on track days. This was the recommended timing from the manufacturer to suit my cam.

Damon, had carb off again yesterday, I noticed when I make it 1:1, there is a very slight movement of the primaries before secondaries. I looked at the base plate, and again, on the surface it seems identical front and back. But, having said that, as you pointed out I really don't know what is going on internally.

I have recorded factory settings and do not plan on changing anything that cannot be reversed. I will press on with secondary changes to mirror primary and attempt to keep it square jetted. In reality, I need an 850 cfm and I think I'm trying to polish a turd here, but this was the carb selected by Holley for my application, it's brand new and I don't have another $1250 to fork out for a smaller carb. (Yeah, we get bent over here money wise for performance parts)

If you're interested, I will put up my results. Someone maybe able to use this as a 'what not to do with a Holley' if wanting to make similar mods.

Again, your feedback is appreciated as always. I am very grateful.

Damon

Yeah, that's probably going to trip you up when going to 1:1 linkage. Call Holley and see what they say. I bet they tell you that when converting to 1:1 you should plug both power valves and run jets-only. I'm guessing that's the case because you're doing a conversion used almost exclusively in racing applications. And will make it absolutely miserable to drive on the street, as you're finding out.

narva*2010

Thanks Damon. Appreciate it. I will see what Holley have to say.

Kind Regards
Glen

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

would have to agree with all this then, alot of people complaining about a dead spot off idle blame the carb and you find out they are running like 10-12 degrees like a stock sbc for an engine with mods and a big cam. but your settings are good for a big cam obviously.



like i said not being real familiar with that carb, you may want to go back to the progressive setup with power valves if the carb allows. i have a 105 in my 4150 mechanical secondary ends up being much better running on the street on the primaries and with this setup she hauls *** instantly if i put it down from a cruise. i tuned my secondaries with track mph after adding the 105 PV.

narva*2010

Jwfirebird,

Thanks for that. Still waiting for parts to arrive, PV included. Will try a few things then.
Appreciate your advice.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

let us know how you make out

narva*2010

Suppose an update is in order.

The Holley rep here was pretty unhelpful when I took your advice Damon. Didn't want to offer advice, didn't like E85. 'Too many variables' Hence the reason I tracked this forum down in the first place...

I got hold of an 850cfm Holley Ultra. Still trying to set up at 1:1 as this my combo likes it. Yeah, again not ideal I acknowledge that but not willing to admit defeat just yet.

Out of box, came with 92/100 main jets. Secondary metering block plugged and PVCRs blank were blank. IAB 63 and HSAB 28. Ran ok, not as good as the 950 with its old set up.

At least I've got @ 1" vac at WOT with the 850, whereas I had no vacuum at WOT with 950. Anyway, what I have done so far is... (and I did say this might be a thread for what not to do to a good Holley)

But. I have put a PV in secondaries and Opened up PVCR. AFR richness at cruise varies greatly, depending on idle mixtures. So far I've been setting idle mix at 0.85 lambda as thats supposed to be optimal idle AFR. When I've done this cruise is rich @ .80, but WOT is lean at .95.

I have increased size of IAB to 67, but idle mix has a bigger influence than air bleeds on light throttle cruise. It is rich on take off from stop, dropping to .71. I placed a wire in IFR, but then had to open mixture screws so kind of negated the simulated smaller IFR.

I am running kind of split jetting, biasing the secondaries. So far, 94 pri and 100 sec. Seem to big to me. I have opened both PVCRs to around .086, which also seems big. Even with all of this, cruise isn't too bad, seems a little rich around .82ish, but WOT is still lean at close to .90 lambda.

If you read all theory from reputable e85 tuners, jets are too big, PVCR is on large size, and out of range (too rich) over most operating ranges, but WOT is still lean??

So what to do next?? Tommorow I plan on setting 4 corner according to engine vac and not optimal AFR. I'm actually going to increase primary mains closer to secondary size, since I am going 1:1. My trans slots are spot on, so I'm starting to scratch my head a bit here. If I do go larger on PVCRs , I'll nearly be at the point where there is no area left to drill and I'll be drilling into the threads in metering blocks that house the removable PVCR jets.

I'm again waiting for parts. No IAB or HSAB here in Melbourne!! I'm thinking I may need to lower HSAB, but they only go down one more .001 to .023 anyhow.

The 1:1 on the 950 really pulled hard the way it was set up, but was comprimising low speed drivability. Was no big deal on the track due to throttle position. But way too rich all other ranges.

Again, open to suggestions. Almost done with it. Maybe Holley Ultra E85 product not all it's cracked up to be. More likely though it is the tuner..

Open to advice fellas.

Kind Regards
Glen

Damon

Heh heh. OK, it would have been nice to know you were running E85 WAY BACK at the beginning. Did I miss you saying that? If you said it, I definitely missed it.

To be honest, you're past me on this. The 1:1 linkage and now E85.... I just don't know how to advise you.

E85 requires roughly DOUBLE the fuel flow vs. gasoline. If every part isn't designed for E85, you'll never get it tuned right. That much I know for sure.

narva*2010

Sorry Damon,
I should've been clearer in first post about the E85. I wrote E85 s . h. i. t and it cut out the swearing. Anyhow, I think I am making progress, waiting for parts from out your way, then I'll post some results.

Again, I'm very appreciative for any feedback guys.

Thanks again.