quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Hi guys!
Ok, I've got my new motor going in my '84 Trans Am and now I am working on cooling issues. I really hoped that my Be Cool rad. would solve a lot of probs. but I guess I'm gonna hafta do some extra work too to get the motor running in the temp. range I want it. I've got a 180* stat, with the stock elec. cooling fan. With the car idling at approx 700-800 rpm, if I turn the A/C on (not hooked up yet) so that the fan runs constant the car never gets close to 220, if I let the fan switch automatically take care of it (stock replacement, not a HyperTech or anything yet, but soon) the temp runs up a little past 220, then the fan kicks in, the temp comes back down a little below 220 and the fan shuts off. Now if I drive the car the temp goes right up to the red zone, but when I come back to the house and park it the temp comes back down (eventually, letting the fan run and letting the car idle) Should I switch over to a mechanical fan instead of the stock electric. A friend of mine told me I should put a mechanical flex fan on it, should I, should I set up dual fans, or do you think that with a lower temp. fan switch I'd be ok with the stock fan? Also, my air dam is not intact, would it really make a 50 degree difference when I'm driving the car? I have absolutely no problem with installing one, and plan on doing so, but will this help me, or am I shooting in the dark? Should I be checking other aspects of the cooling system? Between an air dam and possibly a different fan system I'd like to think I could get the car to run cool enough that I could actually drive it with the 180* stat I'd like to run 180-200 degrees at all times, with a max of 220. Any help or thoughts on this matter is GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks!

-Paul

Buck268

Well, There is NO reason with a nice big rad like you got, a dual fan setup (like TPI cars have), and turn-on temps set up right, you shouldnt have any trouble with over heating. Also, Get an air dam. They are cheap, and this way you dont really need to keep your fans on all the time (when your cruising, like on the higway for example)....

Danno

The airdam is you primary source of airflow to the radiator when moving. Replace it and you cooling problem will be history. You absolutely CANNOT run these things without the dam and expect it to run within specs.

Sciguyjim

I strongly agree with the others, that airdam is a necessity. At expressway speeds the fans just can't pull enough air through the radiator for the amount of heat being generated so it has to be scooped up from below. I have a theory about this. From the aerodynamics of the car, I think that without the airdam the airflow under the car can actually try to pull air backwards through the radiator. This would be working against the fans, making them even more ineffective.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the responses! I ordered the air dam today, as well as the pieces of duct work that go up to help funnel the air into the radiator. I hope that this will take care of the problem, and it sounds like you think it will, so we'll see! Thanks!

-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Ok, here I am again I ordered the air dam, as well as the baffling from the bottom of the bumper up to the radiator (Trans Am specific stuff ) I haven't gotten the baffling yet, but I did get the air dam, and I have it installed. The car is still overheating, but not as quickly as before. Before I got the real air dam I made one out of cardboard and kind of shaped it like a scoop to grab air and force it up through the rad. It SEEMED to work well, because I could drive the car at 45-50 and the temp would stay a little below 220 (although on a non-emissions motor such as mine I'd rather have the temp closer to 180-200) although I don't know for sure because I only drove it just around town for one day that way. This is really starting to bug me because I've got that huge Be Cool radiator that's rated for 600 cu. in. and 1000 hp, and it can't keep my 400 hp. 350 cool!!! It has to be airflow, but how come the stock GM airdam isn't pushing enough air up through the rad.? Is it possible that because of my alum. heads I'm getting an inaccurate temp. reading from the sending unit, since it's in the head and right near the headers? The guage has been almost up to the red at 260, and the radiator hasn't gushed (overflowed the overflow bottle) like I had my old 305 do once. Any suggestions or help with this would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks!

-Paul

Sciguyjim

Quadgoat,
Glad to hear you're making progress, you're on the right track. It is very possible that the temp sensor is giving a wrong reading, or is picking up extra heat from the headers. A good sign is that you've had no boilovers. The best way to check temps accurately in any location is with an IR measuring device. I think they can be rented. Basically, just point it at the area you want to measure and it tells you the temp. These are accurate.
You said you drove around town. Maybe some of the still high temps were because of the relatively slow speeds. The fan(s) should be the source of airflow below about 35 mph. Above that speed the fans turn off since more air can be scooped up from underneath.
As far as I can recall, the fans should come on just over 220° and turn off a bit below that temp (I forget exactly.) A lower temp thermostat isn't all that's needed to keep the engine cool, I believe the ECM has to be reprogrammed to turn the fans on and off at cooler temps. BTW, "a little below 220°" isn't bad. I have a stock 305 tpi w/195° t-stat and the car runs consistantly between about 200 and 215°, except in slow traffic, but when the second fan kicks in it can control the temp fine.

P.S. What is your percentage of antifreeze? Never run 100% antifreeze because it's actually the water that carries away most of the heat. Try 70% water and 30% antifreeze.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Sciguyjim,
Thanks for the response! I've also tried driving the car on the interstate, 55-60 mph and it overheats even then, although not as rapidly as without the airdam. I also have no computer control on this motor whatsoever. It's strictly a carb. and an HEI distributor. I'm running the electric fan constant, since I don't have the AC re-installed yet I just leave the AC on inside and the fan runs constant. I'm gonna try taking out the "aero package" panels in the front bumper and see if that helps, because if it's an airflow problem that should help, and then maybe I will make a set of grills for the openings or something. I'm just trying different stuff and seeing what happens at this point, any more suggestions are appreciated. Also, I am running approx. 50/50 on collant and water, I don't really want to go to the 70/30 because of how cold it gets here in Maine.

-Paul

Sciguyjim

Paul,
Here's another possible mod which might help the air dam scoop up air. Mine was getting pushed back a little and I didn't think I could keep it angled forward. I didn't want to make it longer, for obvious reasons, so I added a "lip" to the bottom edge to help prevent scooped up air from rolling off the bottom instead of going up.
I went to a hardware store (Menards) and found some rubber stair protectors which are mounted on the edges of steps to cover the hard edge. It was cheap and I only needed one. Each leg of the piece was about 1+ inches wide. It looked like this:
|
L__

It screwed easily onto the bottom edge of the air dam with 3 screws. I used bolts and lock washers too so the screws wouldn't loosen. It's nearly invisible.

Another option if you want to make the dam a little longer w/o the lip piece, is to look for some cheap rubber moulding like goes around a room at the intersection of walls and floor. These can be 4 or more inches wide. They are also more flexible than the air dam itself so it'll "give" if it hits something.
Good luck,
Jim.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Jim,
I'm gonna try modifying the air dam, and taking out those front "aero package" panels from the bumper and see if I can keep the car cool. I'll keep you posted!

-Paul

P.S. What does everybody think about switching over to a flex fan that would run all the time off the motor, instead of the electric fan?

igotslicksNchix

say goodbye to about 10-15 of those 400 horses you were talkin about.... try dual electrics. DAMN! i hate cooling systems.

Sciguyjim

Would you really lose that much? The air would be getting pushed through the rad faster than the fan could handle it so the fan's rotation should be helped by this, therefore it would draw less electricity.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Doesn't a flex fan change shape as rpm increases so that at higher rpm (and higher road speeds) it doesn't create as much drag on the motor, and at lower speeds it creates more drag on the motor and moves more air? I've been thinking of dual electrics, but I've been told that a flex fan is better, or at least as good....I want opinions though to help with my decision. I just want this stupid thing to run cool so I can drive it!!!!!!!

Thanks!

-Paul

Sciguyjim

I'm not that familiar w/flexfans. Maybe someone else will have a better answer.

igotslicksNchix

wouldn't draw any electricity, thats why it's called mechanical

ChrisFormula355

Car craft and chevy hi performance has dyno tested mechanical clutch fans versus electrical fans and the mechanical fans only robbed about 4 HP more than an electric fan, which would be hardly noticable, if at all. I'm trying to put a clutch fan on my GF's camaro but I just found out that on a serpentine car you have to find a fan off a later year caprice!

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Ok, I didn't really figure that a mechanical fan would rob all that much power, but do you think it'll help my cooling problem, or should I look into something else all together?
Thanks for all the help so far and thanks in advance for any further help!

-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Ok, here're some more developments! I got the baffling that goes in front of the rad. from GM. I really didn't think it'd make that much difference since the air dam by itself didn't really help my cooling situation. I decided I'd give it a try though so I put the upper baffle in place and just temporarily zip-tied it there. I wasn't able to put the lower baffle in because it appears that it bolts to the bottom of the front bumper cover, and there are no holes for it in my front bumper cover, does that sound right??? Does anybody have a picture of how the lower baffle bolts in place? Anyway, I took the car out for a drive, and as long as I go 30 mph or more it'll stay cool enough, and I can even drive it on the interstate without it overheating! On the interstate the temp sits right on 220, which is higher than I want it seeing as it's not an emissions motor, but I think if I go to a dual electric fan setup and get that lower baffle in place I'll be all set! Any suggestions on dual fan setups? should I run one all the time and have the other one kick on at like 200 degrees? All thoughts/suggestions on this matter are greatly appreciated! Thanks again for all the help!

-Paul

brodyscamaro

You can try to find some out of a FBody, or you can go aftermarket. I know somebody on here, I believe GKK, although I might be wrong, has dual perma cool 12" fans. I think he said that dual 14" would fit diagnolly with a little bit of modification on a stock sized radiator. If your radiator is bigger then stock then you can get the dual 14" i would assume with no problems installing them. If it were me i would wire them up so that both come on at a certain temp and both turn off at the same temp. This way they are not running when you are under the operating temp and they will pull hella air when they need to and turn off when the temp reaches the point
ok i ma rambling.
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...14&prmenbr=361

the 14, 16, and 18 inch fans all pull 2950 cfm of air

scottland

do you have a good enough water pump?

with a bigger alumminum radiator you should get a higher flow water pump... that should help. flush the system more than once. even if the rad is new. check all the hoses for cracks, kinks, the whol 9 yards. try replacing the thermostat if you haven't already...

there is only so much you can do...

obviously try the cheapest mods first.... i.e. rad flush and thermostat. you would really benifit from a high performance water pump thou.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

I've got a "high performance" Weiand cast iron water pump on it. According to the box it's got an 8 bladed impeller, I think I'm moving plenty of coolant, it's just a matter of getting the air to flow through the radiator. I am planning on going to a dual electric fan setup, as was suggested earlier in this string. I am still looking for pictures of how the air baffling (not air dam) bolts in on the Trans Am, so if anyone can help me out I'd appreciate it!

Thanks!

-Paul

laiky

assuming a stock production firebird can run on the highway without overheating, then yours should too. It sounds like an airflow problem, at 60 mph you should not need a fan turning to keep the temp down around you thermostat opening temp. If your getting airflow then you have some other problem. Art you using a stock type waterpump with a serpentine drive? vice versa? it could be turning the wrong way. do you have the spring in the lower hose? Do you have any air in the system? how much Antifreeze did it take? are you using 50/50 mix or strait AF? Replace your thermostat, there cheap. When you get the new one drill a 3/16 hole in it to let air pockets move out freely. Unless its oppressivly hot and humid, say 95 plus. you should cool down to the thermostat opening temp at cruise. The only exception to this might be if your running a really steep gear without OD. Your Be cool should be able to dump heat like nothing else, ther is no reason you should be running hot.

jdm001

My 90 RS was running a bit hot on me. A mixture of mostly water (or all water in summer) will help. I also bent my baffle forward a bit to scoop the air up. Also put in a new 160 stat with 2 small 1/8'' in. holes.


One other mod, made a switch to turn on the fan manually through the temp. sending unit located on the bottom of the pass side engine near the last 2 spark plugs above the knock sensor. All I did was take 2 speaker wires (10 guauge) and hooked one into the wire w/ the sensor, the other to the starter motor bolt as a ground.

I hooked them up together w/ a small generic switch I got for $3 at radio shak... it lights up when on. Oh, and I threw in a 10 amp fuse in the line to prevent any damage to the sensor just in case.

It lights when I have it on and the fan is on due to me and not the sensor unit or ac. If the car gets too hot (or the ac is turned on) the switch on my dash light turns off.

It works great for days when I want the ac off, racing, and stop and go. You can leave it on all the time in summer b/c it makes no diff and you can tell by the lit switch when its on manually or by itself.


Jm

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Ok Guys! I'm reviving this one again! I have really appreciated all your help and input throughout this post, and now I am trying to decide what electric fans to buy. I have pretty much decided that I want 2 electrics, but which ones do you guys recommend? I am seriously considering a pair of Perma Cool 14" fans because they are rated at almost 3000 cfm each, but I have heard that the Perma Cools are not very good and the cfm ratings are rated higher than they actually are. If this is true what fans do you guys recommend? I gotta keep this thing cool, because other than running somewhat hot basically everything else is all set and goes great! Anyway, I think that dual fans combined with functional air dams should keep her cool, I sure hope so anyway Well, any and all input is, as always, greatly appreciated! Thanks a lot!!!!!


-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Hey! do you guys think an LT1 dual fan setup would be good. Check this one out 1993-97? Trans AM/ Z28 LT1 Dual Electric Fan Do you think that would work for my application? (with the Be Cool radiator and all) I am willing to modify it a little if needbe, but if it'd be a big pain to get it to work then it's probably not worth it. What do you think a reasonable price on that fan setup would be? Thanks!

-Paul

GKK

I like the Two 12" Perma Cool fans I installed on my 91 Camaro's stock radiator. I like the clean look and the simple hookup. Both fans turn on at 200* by the Jet Fan-Switch or anytime the AC is on. My 305 tbi gets no hotter than 240* in 100* stop and go traffic. On the freeway on a 100* day, the temperature is around 190* or the first notch on the stock gauge. I also installed a Stewart Stage 1 waterpump and a 180* thermostat with two 1/8" holes drilled in the flange to purge air from the system and prevent hotspots. Also, I don't know if the cfm ratings on these fans are exaggerated but they do cool the engine down quickly when they turn on. You might want to hook up a high quality water temp gauge just to get an accurate temp reading.

Nazzz28

I am currently having a cooling problem as well. At highway speeds
it never gets above 200 degrees, but as soon as I am in traffic
or cruising at low speeds my temp. will gradually rise. I currently
have a 16" perma cool fan, mounted as a puller, which turns on
with a temp. sensor just above 220 degrees. However, the temp.
will rise to about 240 and stay there. At this temp. the engine
starts to run slightly rough. To solve this I am mounting another
16" perma cool fan on the front as a pusher (off set from the
puller) and wiring it to a toggle switch mounted in the dash. I
chose another 16" fan because it only draws 0.3 more amps than
the 14" one. Hopefully, this will solve the problem. I think that
if you go with the dual fans and get the ducting in place you will be
fine.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info so far guys! So what do poeple think about that LT-1 setup on eBay? Worth it or not? I have heard that it is one of the best dual fan setups, with the shroud and all, I dunno though...Hey GKK, did you just hook up those 2 12" fans to the stock electric fan wiring, so that they come on with the AC like you were saying and everything, or did you rewire it all and put in your own relays? I'm just wondering if I can get away with running 2 14" Perma Cools (if I go that route) without having to run all new wiring and put in new relays....what do you think? Thanks again for all your help!

-Paul

90FirebirdV6

Definatly use the air dam, i went and got one today straight from GM for 33. bucks. so its worth it to keep your engine cool...

GKK

Yes, I wired both fans using the stock relays since both fans combined only draw 15 amps.

brodyscamaro

clutch fans dont rob that much power, where did you get your info? car craft did a test - a top of the line electric fan vs. a mechanical clutch fan. the top of the line electric had 4 more hp. no big deal. ask chrisformula355 - he did the swap and noticed NO difference, i am fixing to do the swap and i bet i notice no difference. do you know how many super fast cars are out there without electric fans, the electric fan thing doesnt really mean ****. you know they put a major load on your alternator right?

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Ok so do you guys think I should go with a mechanical fan and make a shroud? Or would a shroud off say an 83 or 84 camaro or firebird with a mechanical fan work? Please let me know what you think about that LT-1 fan setup on eBay, the auction gets done in 6 hours, so I'd love your opinions on it!

Thanks!

-Paul

brodyscamaro

i am going to go to a mechanical fan. i dont know if those fans will work or not for sure. they probably cool pretty good. any fan shroud off an early camaro or firebird will fit and work. i have the part number for it, look in my thread about the clutch fan in this board. its like 40 bux.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

So do you guys all think that a big clutch fan with a shroud will cool as well as two big electrics (with/without a shroud)? I wouldn't mind going with a clutch fan as long as everyone thinks it'll work. I had a full mechanical (no clutch whatsoever) fan on my '69 GTO with a 400 big block and she never even got up to 200* except on the very very very hottest days (actually only happened once) but she had a lot bigger grill...some days I really miss the ole girl...*sniff* Oh well. Anyway, I guess I won't go for that LT-1 setup, unless someone really thinks that it'll be a great setup for my application. Let me know what you all think, and what you would recommend for a good mechanical fan...I need to pull A LOT of air through my radiator (as you guys all know ) Anyway, thanks again for your time and input!

-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

oh well I did a little more searching on the board (don't know why I didn't see this earlier ) and I found this to be very interesting https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=127723 I don't have a serpentine belt system, therefore no reverse rotation waterpump/fan, so what would you guys recommend for a mechanical fan if I decide to go that route? Also, why did GM put the electric fan on my '84 TA that had the HO motor and AC? and would have put a mechanical fan on it if it was just an LG4 without AC? (or maybe with AC, but an LG4 nonetheless) Did they think the electric cooled better? I'm confused......lol, anyway, maybe you all have some insight into this??

-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Ok, this opportunity arose, so I jumped on it and went ahead and got an LT-1 fan setup off eBay I'll hafta see how it all works out, but due to some things I've read on here I think it'll work pretty well, besides which I couldn't have even gotten one of the 14" Perma Cools for the price I am paying for this dual fan setup . Anyway, I'll hafta see how it works out, and I'll let you all know, please let me know what you think, even if you think this is a dumb way to go, let me know, because I can always resell this fan setup if you guys really think I should go with a mechanical setup Anyway, let me know what ya think!

-Paul

brodyscamaro

thats cool. please post in this thread how it fits, im subscribed

GKK

Each fan system has there own pros and cons.

Mechanical fans: 1) Flow a lot more air than electric fans at certain rpms but, are noisy and cost a few horsepower. 2) they are inexpensive. 3) Do not flow as much air while idling in traffic which is where you want the most airflow.

Electric fans: 1) Are more expensive but are quieter and only run when needed. 2) Free up a few horsepower compared to a mechanical fan. 3) Flow more air in traffic which is where you need it the most.

Any engine in a thirdgen with all the factory cooling parts intact should have no cooling problems on the freeway or while moving at a constant speed. It's when the vehicle is stopped is where you need the extra airflow from a fan. If you want a simple inexpensive solution get a mechanical fan and shroud. If you want more of a factory look with higher airflow in stopped traffic and quieter operation get the electric fan.

brodyscamaro

for the most part i very much have to agree, but a mechanical fan will flow plenty of air at idle. i have many buddies with them that have had no cooling problems - yet i have before at idle

Desert86Roc

Sorry I didnt see this post before. I could have saved you some time. I think you were on the right track, way at the beginning of these posts when you said you were wondering if your temp gauge was giving accurate readings, and then you mentioned aluminum heads. Well speaking from experience, you gauge IS probably WAY off. The aluminum heads dump more heat than cast, and once they become heat soaked, will cause the sending unit to read much higher that the actual coolant temp.

You can verify this by plugging a scanner into your ALDL while running the engine and monitoring your temps. At low temps, my gauge would read accurate, but once everything started to warm up, the computer sensor would still be seeing about 193* which is about right....however the temp gauge would be reading 220 or higher. On a hot Phoenix day with the A/C on, my temp gauge would go up to 245+*!, but the computer was only seeing 219*... right were it was supposed to be. All the sensors on my engine are new, and I tried several different sending units to try to solve the gauge inaccuracy. Before I put my new motor in, my gauge was accurate, even with headers and I even tried the same sending unit from the old motor with the same results.

I also have aftermarket aluminum heads (Trick Flow TW) and am running a stock GM aluminum radiator, with the dual OEM fan setup (which is better than the cheap aftermarket fans that just dont move as much air), and it cools my 406 just fine, that is as long as you trust your computer CTS and not the gauge. I have actually learned to like the way my gauge operates, as now I have true head temps, and not just the coolant temp. My racing has become much more consistent now that I warm the engine (heads) to the same temp before each run.

If you cant live with the way the gauge is working, one solution is to move the gauge sending unit to the intake manifold, or to the thermostat housing.

Hope you solve your problem.

laiky

the stock lg4 water neck has 2 ports for sensors, if you need a place to put one!

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for all the input! I got an LT-1 dual fan setup, with wiring pigtails and shipping for $75 (way less than I would have spent on 2 perma cools) and I'm gonna give that a shot, combined with my new air dam and pre-radiator baffling (which did help) I am hoping that my cooling issues will be solved. I will also try hooking up a mechanical temp gauge, with the sender in the intake to check my temp reading from the head and find out how far off it really is. I'll keep you all posted on how this goes and how the LT-1 fans install and work.

-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

I'm raising this one from the dead AGAIN I was just wondering if anyone on the boards has any pictures or install tips on putting the LT1 fans in? I've had them for quite a while and haven't gotten them in yet because I've been at college. Now summer approaches and I'm getting excited to get back to work on my car, so if anyone has any tips on setting up the LT1 fans (or any shrouded dual fan setups) please feel free to add your comments I'm also thinking about modifying my air dam a bit to try and grab more air, since it's pretty small and doesn't seem like it helps as much as a larger one would. Oh, also, on that thought, was there more than one version of air dam used on Trans Ams? If anybody has pics of the OEM air dam on their T/A I'd love to see them! Thanks for any and all help!!

-Paul

Sciguyjim

Quadgoat,
I don't recall where I got this idea from, but it is a simple way to direct a bit more air up toward the radiator rather than letting it spill under the bottom edge of the air dam.

I went to the hardware store, in the weather stripping area I think, and found a 3-4 foot long piece of L-shaped rubber strip

original dam
||
||
||.........^re-directed airflow curves upwards
|| ||.....|
|| ||......\____
|| ||_____......\__________< new air flow
.........^
........New L-shaped piece bolted to bottom edge

<.........................< old air flow under straight dam


It was about the same length as my air dam. with 3 or 4 small bolts, lockwashers, and nuts I screwed the L-shaped piece to the bottom edge of the air dam. It's very flexible so it isn't damaged if I bump a curb. Now instead of some air flowing under the dam, it's forced to curve upwards. I hope you can understand the drawing.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Sciguyjim,
I remember you mentioning that before, I may go ahead and give it a shot, sounds like it might help out a bit. Anybody else have any answers to my questions or further suggestions?

-Paul

SC2camaro

hey guys


I had a problem close to what he is describing in my 88 sc tbi

i had a manual fan switch on my fans for a while to help control heat in stop and go traffic it worked great. but one thing that i did notce is that if i left it running when i hit the bypass that the temps would rise and run about 220 or so. i turn the fans off manualally and the temp dropped back to normal.

the only thing that i can think of is that @ 65-70 mph the air is flowing faster thru the rad that what the fan can move. so since that the fan was on it stopped any extra air from being pushed thru?

dunno, it quite puzzling. kinda makes since the fan can't spin up but so fast.

try turning the fans off manually and gget those air dams fixed

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Ok guys (and girls?)
Last night I FINALLY started working on my LT-1 dual fan install. I am going to control one fan with a CSI digital temp guage/fan control unit, and the other fan with a fan control unit from Advance Auto Parts. The fan install has ended up being a little harder than I thought, I had to seriously modify the LT-1 fan shroud, I will try to get some pictures of this, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to, anyway, I thought I'd let you all know!

-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

All right, the install is complete!! I have some pictures that I need to resize and then I'll post them in a new thread, so if you're interested, check it out and let me know what you think (not sure if I'll get the pics up tonight or not, but it will be within the next day!!)

-Paul