R134 or R12 or Freez12 - Cooling - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

Catchen22 · 04-16-2003, 12:35 AM

Has anybody done the conversion from R12 to R134 or Freez12? Whats the difference between the three? What would be the better way to go?

RegaPlanet · 04-16-2003, 08:14 AM

R-12 is phased out so becoming very expensive.. R134 is the most common now adays and much cheaper... there's an article in the tech section about converting to 134 from 12.

1986redbird · 04-16-2003, 11:11 AM

NO, DON'T DO IT !!!!!

I'm sure others will disagree but I have regretted switching to 134A ever since I had it done, and yes, it was done by a good mechanic. it seems our cars are designed around the effieciency of R-12 and when using the less efficient 134A they don't cool near as well.

just to clarify: I replaced the compressor,accumulator,orrifice tube, flushed the system,vacuumed it down,installed a on/off valve on the heater lines and check the damper for proper operation. all to no avail, it still cools poorly.

spend the extra money and get R12 put back in, if the system is good and has no leaks you should not have to worry about it for quite a while.

Catchen22 · 04-16-2003, 06:07 PM

Other People have also told me that R12 does cool better than R134A. Somebody else ALSO told me that FREEZ12 cools better than R12 and that I wouldn't have to convert anything. So does anybody know anything about FREEZ12?

jeffs82z28 · 04-17-2003, 12:11 AM

Convert to 134a and be happy that you have A/C.

R-12 is going for $60+ per lbs and you will need at minimum 2.5 lbs if the system is empty.

There are several "substitutes" for R-12 on the market. I would stay away from them like the plague for two very important reasons:

Some substitutes use Propane as the refridgerant, which turns your A/C system into a mobile bomb.

The other is that repair shops will not work on systems that have the "substitutes" in them because they don't want their equipment contaminated with unknown and possibly hazardous chemicals. And A/C service equipment is VERY expensive.

And last but certainly not least, lack of R-12 in the marketplace. Were I work, we are out of R-12 and won't be getting any more.

R-12 to R-134a conversions can be tricky due to the fact that R-134a systems are very sensitive to the quantity of refridgerant in the system. a little too much=poor cooling, a little too little=poor cooling.

That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

SC2camaro · 04-17-2003, 04:10 PM

hey

if i was you i would stay with 12 my car still has 12 in it and it will cool down to about 38 degrees when crusing @ highway speeds.

mine was low and i just put a shot of freeze 12 in it works great

i had a 94 camaro with 134a and it would not cool a good

my 94 gmc has 134a and it will only get down to about 41 degrees.

stay with 12 use the freeze12 it's worth it

Catchen22 · 04-17-2003, 07:01 PM

Does anybody Know if Freeze12 is a propane type deal. Somebody told me that it was. If it is like propane then would'nt it be a bad idea to put propane in your car. It's like a rolling fireball waiting to explode. Isn't it?

alloy · 04-18-2003, 10:41 AM

Yes Freeze 12 has a small amount of propane in it. But, what about that gas tank full of high test you have in your car? It's kind of flamable isn't it?

Freeze 12 has an ignition temp of 1585 deg. at 5 psi. R143a has and ignition temp of 1368 deg. at 5 psi. Freeze 12 is also covered under OSHA standards, and even Green Peace endorses it. For me anything that Green Peace endorses I instantly am against, but this stuff works very well. I've been running it for years in all my older vehicles without any problem at all. The cost is also very reasonable.

If you decide to go with Freeze 12, then go to Ebay and buy it there. There are lots of people selling it much cheaper than Auto Cool is.

Here is a link to an information page about freeze 12.

http://www.autocool-refrigerants.com...tm#tech%20page

89 Pollo · 04-21-2003, 01:58 PM

I did the R134 conversion and am getting 45 degrees F at the center vent.
fyi,
Mark

Catchen22 · 01-22-2004, 02:02 AM

So if I have to recharge my system then doesn't that mean I have a leak somewhere? If not then how can I be low on R-12?

yankeecarman · 01-22-2004, 02:18 PM

I have switched to 134 because I had to have a new compressor and thought that this would be the time to do it. It doesnt cool as good as R-12. The refrig. mechanic suggested that I add an electric fan to the front of the condenser to come on with the a/c. He says that the new gases need more cooling power than the older R-12 because it is a more dense gas. What are opinions on adding this other fan. Btw, my car is 84Z28 with a single mechanical fan. Opinions? Thanks.

25THRSS · 01-23-2004, 03:11 AM

Isn't r12 illegal to purchase now anyways?

MrDude_1 · 01-23-2004, 07:42 AM

best 3rdgen retrofit to R134 instructions on the internet:
http://www.iroczone.com/projac01.html

comes out just as icy cold as factory...

ive never heard of Freeze 12 though...... im going to have to get some info on that......
is it a direct replacement for R12?

edit:
yankeecarman: try using the orfice tube mentioned in the link i posted

f-crazy · 01-23-2004, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 25THRSS
Isn't r12 illegal to purchase now anyways?

you have to have a license to buy it, were as 134 u walk in the store and lay out the cash and walk out..

yankeecarman · 01-23-2004, 01:25 PM

Will try the orifice method when I can locate the right tube. It may take a little to figure out the correct one here in Australia but I will give it a go. Thanks will bone up on this new method.

JamesC · 01-24-2004, 08:39 AM

Did the swap. I'm still unhappy. If I had to make the decision again I'd stay with the original.

Yankee,

Should you try the tube or fan and are pleased with the results, please let me know.

JamesC

yankeecarman · 01-24-2004, 01:29 PM

Several people have told me not to add a fan to the front of the radiator because it would hamper the flow of fresh air to the car. I think if I do anything like that it may be to change the system to duel fans. That would be the best of both worlds as far as fresh air is conserned. Maybe later will change the oriface tube. Anyone change the tubes?

Catchen22 · 01-25-2004, 10:22 PM

So how can you be low on R12??? Does it burn up, leak out, evaporate????

Danno · 01-26-2004, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Catchen22
So how can you be low on R12??? Does it burn up, leak out, evaporate????

In auto applications you can lose as much as 1/2lb per year without there being a major problem because of vibration, hoses and normal seal leakage. If you can get 12 and it IS around use it until it is not practical. I have 2 GM vehicles with factory 134, they don't cool like the rock with 12. If properly done 134 will work, but is it actually cheaper to stay with 12 if you only need a top off. Even 2 lbs of 12 would be cheaper than doing a proper 134 conversion.

UmmaGumma · 01-29-2004, 11:52 AM

Stick with R-12.. That's all I can say. I did the 134 conversion right before summer because of the cost difference. I wished I never made the conversion once it was done.

Az summers with R12 are great.. w/ 134 it sucks.

I'll be converting back to R12 this spring. It's well worth the extra $$ if you're in a climate like I am.

84H.O.Trans Am · 01-30-2004, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Catchen22
Does anybody Know if Freeze12 is a propane type deal. Somebody told me that it was. If it is like propane then would'nt it be a bad idea to put propane in your car. It's like a rolling fireball waiting to explode. Isn't it?

The problem with freeze 12 and other R12 replacements is that it causes the pressure of the A/C system to run way high.(it wont explode like a bomb) This in turn makes the old seals on the hoses leak more then they would have with R12. It can replace the R12 directly but it will not be sufficient by itself. (i.e. filling an R12 system with just Freeze12 would not work well)

Correct R134a does not cool as well as R12 will.

Staying with pure R12 may not be the cheapest solution but it will certainly get the best results.

84H.O.Trans Am · 01-30-2004, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UmmaGumma
Stick with R-12.. That's all I can say. I did the 134 conversion right before summer because of the cost difference. I wished I never made the conversion once it was done.

Az summers with R12 are great.. w/ 134 it sucks.

I'll be converting back to R12 this spring. It's well worth the extra $$ if you're in a climate like I am.

do you have over heating problems?..what do you do to correct them?

Barry85Iroc · 01-31-2004, 04:54 PM

DON'T DO THE CONVERSION!!!!!!!!! Use freez-12.

UmmaGumma · 01-31-2004, 06:59 PM

No overheating problems

mike88form350 · 02-02-2004, 09:51 PM

most people have problems with r-12 to r-134a conversions because the molocules that make up 134 are much smaller than 12 molocules. this means a small leak on a 12 system turns into a big leak when the system is converted to 134. it is legal to top off a leaking system, though not recomended, as long as you have a pure charge of whatever refrig your running.

also be AWARE a closed A/C system is designed to work best with it's designated refrigerant. also be aware of compressor replacement. the oil that lubricates the compressor is carried through the system by the refrigerant. r-12 uses a mineral oil, r-134 a use PAG oil. the two are very different and if used with the wrong type of refrig it will not carry the oil effeciently and you risk destroying the compressor. also accumulator/drier systems like to hide refrig and oil in the accumulator. even durring the recovery process it can be difficult to get all the refrig and oil out of the system, increasing the possibility of cross contamination and decreasing system performance.

for this reason your expectations of system performance after a 134 retro-fit should not be high. it won't work as well as 12.

personally i would stick with 12 for as long as you can or as long as you can afford it before it becomes illegal.

AM Racer · 02-29-2004, 08:21 PM

I've used the 12 replacements with good luck in Jeep/Chrysler systems and they work quite well. In a GM unit, the 134 conversion kits will do you no justice. GM uses a throttle valve system that adjusts the amount of refrigerant to the inside of the car based on an R-12 working pressure. The 134 expansion rates are quite different and efficiency is lost since the valve doesn't know you switches gasses.
134 conversions work well on Ford/Chrysler systems since they use an expansion valve system that cycles the compressor until the desired temp is reached unlike the GM.
So basically stick with 12 or the sub for it.

di11avou · 03-01-2004, 09:13 PM

I didn't realize anyone still used R-12 alternatives. Do you guys know that Freeze-12 is 80% R-134a? When you're using that much 134a already why not just do the conversion? If done properly, it should only be a couple degrees warmer than the old R-12 system. It is also a bad idea to mix different types of refrigerants. Not only can it be dangerous, but when you contaminate R-12 with other refrigerants it must be destroyed instead of being recycled for reuse. Therefore further reducing US's supply of R-12. (It's illegal to produce new R-12 in the US and illegal to import it.)

Yes R-134a molecules are smaller than R-12 molecules which will reveal any leaks in your system. But if your system does have a leak, would you rather pay $60+ for R-12 or just grab a can of R-134a from Walmart?

cc2006305 · 03-02-2004, 06:53 PM

I had the conversion done last year after my compressor seized up coming back from New Orleans.

Oh yeah, IT WAS THE MIDDLE OF SUMMER WHEN I DID IT!!! I didnt learn about freeze 12 until about October. Try driving around in 98-101 degree weather with 100% humidity with an all black interior and a heater core that fogs everything up if you don't roll the windows down!!

There's actually a plant in Mississippi that has special permission to make R-12, naturally, they make a killing
Either stick with R-12 or go with Freeze 12!!

Beefy89 · 03-05-2004, 09:18 PM

You guys still have the A/C on your cars? LOL

SSC · 03-06-2004, 08:52 PM

R-134 works fine if installed properly You need to watch the guages when filling the system, a set amount doesent work and more doesent always equal cooler like mentioned above.
Persoanlly I'm sick of the cold weather and cant wait for 110* weather to roll around again.

I'm still going to have my ac though just because the Bird is extreemly hot being a hard top and all. First time I drove it in summer with no ac I almost died, couldent beleive how much hotter it was inside compared to the camaro I could take the tops off of.