Catchen22

Has anybody done the conversion from R12 to R134 or Freez12? Whats the difference between the three? What would be the better way to go?

RegaPlanet

R-12 is phased out so becoming very expensive.. R134 is the most common now adays and much cheaper... there's an article in the tech section about converting to 134 from 12.

1986redbird

NO, DON'T DO IT !!!!!

I'm sure others will disagree but I have regretted switching to 134A ever since I had it done, and yes, it was done by a good mechanic. it seems our cars are designed around the effieciency of R-12 and when using the less efficient 134A they don't cool near as well.

just to clarify: I replaced the compressor,accumulator,orrifice tube, flushed the system,vacuumed it down,installed a on/off valve on the heater lines and check the damper for proper operation. all to no avail, it still cools poorly.

spend the extra money and get R12 put back in, if the system is good and has no leaks you should not have to worry about it for quite a while.

Catchen22

Other People have also told me that R12 does cool better than R134A. Somebody else ALSO told me that FREEZ12 cools better than R12 and that I wouldn't have to convert anything. So does anybody know anything about FREEZ12?

jeffs82z28

Convert to 134a and be happy that you have A/C.

R-12 is going for $60+ per lbs and you will need at minimum 2.5 lbs if the system is empty.

There are several "substitutes" for R-12 on the market. I would stay away from them like the plague for two very important reasons:

Some substitutes use Propane as the refridgerant, which turns your A/C system into a mobile bomb.

The other is that repair shops will not work on systems that have the "substitutes" in them because they don't want their equipment contaminated with unknown and possibly hazardous chemicals. And A/C service equipment is VERY expensive.

And last but certainly not least, lack of R-12 in the marketplace. Were I work, we are out of R-12 and won't be getting any more.

R-12 to R-134a conversions can be tricky due to the fact that R-134a systems are very sensitive to the quantity of refridgerant in the system. a little too much=poor cooling, a little too little=poor cooling.

That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

SC2camaro

hey

if i was you i would stay with 12 my car still has 12 in it and it will cool down to about 38 degrees when crusing @ highway speeds.

mine was low and i just put a shot of freeze 12 in it works great

i had a 94 camaro with 134a and it would not cool a good

my 94 gmc has 134a and it will only get down to about 41 degrees.

stay with 12 use the freeze12 it's worth it

Catchen22

Does anybody Know if Freeze12 is a propane type deal. Somebody told me that it was. If it is like propane then would'nt it be a bad idea to put propane in your car. It's like a rolling fireball waiting to explode. Isn't it?

alloy

iTrader: (16)

Yes Freeze 12 has a small amount of propane in it. But, what about that gas tank full of high test you have in your car? It's kind of flamable isn't it?

Freeze 12 has an ignition temp of 1585 deg. at 5 psi. R143a has and ignition temp of 1368 deg. at 5 psi. Freeze 12 is also covered under OSHA standards, and even Green Peace endorses it. For me anything that Green Peace endorses I instantly am against, but this stuff works very well. I've been running it for years in all my older vehicles without any problem at all. The cost is also very reasonable.

If you decide to go with Freeze 12, then go to Ebay and buy it there. There are lots of people selling it much cheaper than Auto Cool is.

Here is a link to an information page about freeze 12.


http://www.autocool-refrigerants.com...tm#tech%20page

89 Pollo

I did the R134 conversion and am getting 45 degrees F at the center vent.
fyi,
Mark

Catchen22

So if I have to recharge my system then doesn't that mean I have a leak somewhere? If not then how can I be low on R-12?

yankeecarman

iTrader: (9)

I have switched to 134 because I had to have a new compressor and thought that this would be the time to do it. It doesnt cool as good as R-12. The refrig. mechanic suggested that I add an electric fan to the front of the condenser to come on with the a/c. He says that the new gases need more cooling power than the older R-12 because it is a more dense gas. What are opinions on adding this other fan. Btw, my car is 84Z28 with a single mechanical fan. Opinions? Thanks.

25THRSS

Isn't r12 illegal to purchase now anyways?

MrDude_1

best 3rdgen retrofit to R134 instructions on the internet:
http://www.iroczone.com/projac01.html

comes out just as icy cold as factory...


ive never heard of Freeze 12 though...... im going to have to get some info on that......
is it a direct replacement for R12?




edit:
yankeecarman: try using the orfice tube mentioned in the link i posted

f-crazy

iTrader: (-1)

you have to have a license to buy it, were as 134 u walk in the store and lay out the cash and walk out..

yankeecarman

iTrader: (9)

Will try the orifice method when I can locate the right tube. It may take a little to figure out the correct one here in Australia but I will give it a go. Thanks will bone up on this new method.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Did the swap. I'm still unhappy. If I had to make the decision again I'd stay with the original.

Yankee,

Should you try the tube or fan and are pleased with the results, please let me know.

JamesC

yankeecarman

iTrader: (9)

Several people have told me not to add a fan to the front of the radiator because it would hamper the flow of fresh air to the car. I think if I do anything like that it may be to change the system to duel fans. That would be the best of both worlds as far as fresh air is conserned. Maybe later will change the oriface tube. Anyone change the tubes?

Catchen22

So how can you be low on R12??? Does it burn up, leak out, evaporate????

Danno

In auto applications you can lose as much as 1/2lb per year without there being a major problem because of vibration, hoses and normal seal leakage. If you can get 12 and it IS around use it until it is not practical. I have 2 GM vehicles with factory 134, they don't cool like the rock with 12. If properly done 134 will work, but is it actually cheaper to stay with 12 if you only need a top off. Even 2 lbs of 12 would be cheaper than doing a proper 134 conversion.

UmmaGumma

Stick with R-12.. That's all I can say. I did the 134 conversion right before summer because of the cost difference. I wished I never made the conversion once it was done.

Az summers with R12 are great.. w/ 134 it sucks.

I'll be converting back to R12 this spring. It's well worth the extra $$ if you're in a climate like I am.

84H.O.Trans Am

iTrader: (1)

The problem with freeze 12 and other R12 replacements is that it causes the pressure of the A/C system to run way high.(it wont explode like a bomb) This in turn makes the old seals on the hoses leak more then they would have with R12. It can replace the R12 directly but it will not be sufficient by itself. (i.e. filling an R12 system with just Freeze12 would not work well)

Correct R134a does not cool as well as R12 will.

Staying with pure R12 may not be the cheapest solution but it will certainly get the best results.

84H.O.Trans Am

iTrader: (1)

do you have over heating problems?..what do you do to correct them?

Barry85Iroc

DON'T DO THE CONVERSION!!!!!!!!! Use freez-12.

UmmaGumma

No overheating problems

mike88form350

most people have problems with r-12 to r-134a conversions because the molocules that make up 134 are much smaller than 12 molocules. this means a small leak on a 12 system turns into a big leak when the system is converted to 134. it is legal to top off a leaking system, though not recomended, as long as you have a pure charge of whatever refrig your running.

also be AWARE a closed A/C system is designed to work best with it's designated refrigerant. also be aware of compressor replacement. the oil that lubricates the compressor is carried through the system by the refrigerant. r-12 uses a mineral oil, r-134 a use PAG oil. the two are very different and if used with the wrong type of refrig it will not carry the oil effeciently and you risk destroying the compressor. also accumulator/drier systems like to hide refrig and oil in the accumulator. even durring the recovery process it can be difficult to get all the refrig and oil out of the system, increasing the possibility of cross contamination and decreasing system performance.

for this reason your expectations of system performance after a 134 retro-fit should not be high. it won't work as well as 12.

personally i would stick with 12 for as long as you can or as long as you can afford it before it becomes illegal.

AM Racer

I've used the 12 replacements with good luck in Jeep/Chrysler systems and they work quite well. In a GM unit, the 134 conversion kits will do you no justice. GM uses a throttle valve system that adjusts the amount of refrigerant to the inside of the car based on an R-12 working pressure. The 134 expansion rates are quite different and efficiency is lost since the valve doesn't know you switches gasses.
134 conversions work well on Ford/Chrysler systems since they use an expansion valve system that cycles the compressor until the desired temp is reached unlike the GM.
So basically stick with 12 or the sub for it.

di11avou

iTrader: (1)

I didn't realize anyone still used R-12 alternatives. Do you guys know that Freeze-12 is 80% R-134a? When you're using that much 134a already why not just do the conversion? If done properly, it should only be a couple degrees warmer than the old R-12 system. It is also a bad idea to mix different types of refrigerants. Not only can it be dangerous, but when you contaminate R-12 with other refrigerants it must be destroyed instead of being recycled for reuse. Therefore further reducing US's supply of R-12. (It's illegal to produce new R-12 in the US and illegal to import it.)

Yes R-134a molecules are smaller than R-12 molecules which will reveal any leaks in your system. But if your system does have a leak, would you rather pay $60+ for R-12 or just grab a can of R-134a from Walmart?

cc2006305

I had the conversion done last year after my compressor seized up coming back from New Orleans. Oh yeah, IT WAS THE MIDDLE OF SUMMER WHEN I DID IT!!! I didnt learn about freeze 12 until about October. Try driving around in 98-101 degree weather with 100% humidity with an all black interior and a heater core that fogs everything up if you don't roll the windows down!!

There's actually a plant in Mississippi that has special permission to make R-12, naturally, they make a killing
Either stick with R-12 or go with Freeze 12!!

Beefy89

You guys still have the A/C on your cars? LOL

SSC

R-134 works fine if installed properly You need to watch the guages when filling the system, a set amount doesent work and more doesent always equal cooler like mentioned above.
Persoanlly I'm sick of the cold weather and cant wait for 110* weather to roll around again. I'm still going to have my ac though just because the Bird is extreemly hot being a hard top and all. First time I drove it in summer with no ac I almost died, couldent beleive how much hotter it was inside compared to the camaro I could take the tops off of.

89V6FBIRD

Freeze 12 Is what I filled my system up with. It only cost $45 and it blows REALLY cold in LA heat! Definitely worth it!

TA5LiterHO

My original system in my 84 worked up until 2 years ago when the AC compressor clutch burned up. I drained the system, replaced the compressor and filled up with 134a and it cools just as good as it did with the r12 in my opinion. No problems to this day.

breathment

actualy if u do have a leak, good luck finding a shop who will fill it with r-12. ever a\c shop guy i know will NOT fill your system with r-12 without first running a leak test (another $65)... because if your needed r-12 then u obviously have a leak, (or had a leak)

elcamin0_77us

One thing which a few touched on is the fact that the R-134a molocules are smaller than R-12. This alows it to leak easely which means you have to "Pay Attention to Detail" when completeing the conversion. Hoses used for R-12 usually are not barrer-type hoses, they will have to be replaced or the R-134a will seep right through. All seals need to be replaced. Correct oil Used. The correct amount of R-134a. All of this plus other concerns have to be taken into consideration when converting a system.

Last but not least. Most shops will not touch your system without testing for leaks or foreign substances. When I was "Turning Wenches" and got my licence to purchase R-12, It was against the law to "Top Off" a known leaking system. We were also required by law to recover any remaining R-12 from your system. I imagine that is still the case today. Whether thats being inforced or not who knows. And as for you guys with the "Foreign Substance" in your vehicles. These are time-bombs waiting to go off. Yes, some people run high octane fuel, but remember that the fuel tank is in a location designed to protect it. Gasoline has to change states to a vapor from a liquid to burn. Propane is already in the vaper state. The condensor is in front and all you need to add is a front-end collosion and we now have a instant bomb. People, think about this when your riding with your family. I myself do not like the risk that some are putting My Family in by this type of foolishness.

Just My thoughts on this subject.
Bill

black89ws6

Beer is 95% water...doesn't mean you can get tanked on a case of evian.

Freeze 12 is a blended refrigerant. It's like the antifreeze and water in your car radiator. You wouldn't want to run either one alone, but in properly mixed proportions, they get the job done the best.

Catchen22

well in AZ there are a few JIFFY LUBE shopes that will fill it withoug testing for leaks. You do have to recover what ever is/was in the system, and you can top off a known leaking system. And if thats not the case then I know a shop or two that will top it off anyways. When I get the AC done i'll post results.

black89ws6

Topping off a known leaking system is not illegal according to the EPA, and federal laws, but it is illegal according to state laws in a few states.

By the way, R12 is not as expensive as it used to be...the price has actually come down some, since so many people have either converted, or decided that their R12 cooled vehicle is too old to be worth putting $$$ into the ac. Last summer I checked the price at my local NAPA, and could have picked up a can for $30...still expensive, but not as bad as it used to be.

RebelTillDeath3

Wait, are you saying you found R-12 for $30 per lb?! My work paid $60 per lb for the last case that we bought, it's probably, if not, the last case of R-12 in the state.

Also I think almost every shop should do a dye test before recharging the system because if a customer comes back complaining about it not blowing cold anymore they're going to blame you. If you let them know before hand that they have a leak, they won't be as pissed.

black89ws6

Not quite a pound. it was a 12 oz can (3/4 pound). Maybe it was $35, but it wasn't more than that. Call your local parts store and ask. Don't just assume it's high because everybody says so.

Don't forget ebay, either. I bought 2 12oz cans of R12 there for $35, including s/h

RebelTillDeath3

You could be gettin Freeze 12 in a can labeled as R-12, you never know. I mean, the provider would be making a bit of money off of that scam.

black89ws6

Not unless they've posted a false picture of it, which would be outright lying. There's a lot of Freeze12 for sale as well, although that stuff goes about $6/can.

I'm going to do a test run of the Freeze12 soon. I have an S10 farm truck with an especially low R12 charge. The boss has determined the truck is not worth fixing ac (old truck, kinda beat up), so it's mine to test with.

The interesting thing is that this truck has a slow leak...which is exactly the kind of thing that causes problems with these blended refrigerants (one component leaks faster than another). It will be interesting to see what happens to it's performance as it leaks a little down.

Catchen22

Well I found out where the leak was coming from. The Compressor it self. So I bought a new one. Sands chevrolet wanted $400 for a new one that came out to $300 after my discount. Called my aunt and she got me an AC DELCO compressor with clutch for $200. I bought it and replaced it. Leak tested it and no leaks. So I filled her up and she blows cold. So cold that I actually have to turn it to low after 20-30 minutes. I guess thats not bad, considering that I live in arizona. And arizona summers are hell. So I was SOOOOOOOOO happy that I stuck with the R12. Plus I still have 5 pounds left, After filling the car up. Just thought you guys might want to know.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

I just did the conversion on my 87 with freeze12. Other than the adapter fittings, no other changes were made. Yesterday it was 88 degrees here, and I had 45 degree air coming from my vents. It's been a long time since I've had R12 in the car, so I really don't remember how cold it got with the R12, but I'm very satisfied with the results of using freeze12 in my car.

MrDude_1

last summer, i topped off my R12 system with 134a and some oil for the 134......

its been over a year.. still ice cold... so cold that in the humid air in costal SC, i can make ice form on the vents.




and i thought i was just totally half assing it. :lala:

tamatt27

I'm surprised the R-134 han't leaked out, due to the smaller particlesof R-134.
The main reason why R-134 doesn't cool as well as R-12 is because R-134 doesn't dissapate the heat as well as R-12. So, theoretically, more airflow to the condenser would aid in the heat dissapation of the R-134.
I'm going to be doing the LT1 T56 swap in my car, and I'll be converting the A/C system using the 4th gen setup as well.
I plan on using 4th gen cooling fans, and the stock 3rd gen cooling fan in front of the condenser for more airflow...Sounds good in my head, we'll see when It comes time to do it

MrDude_1

sure. they're smaller.

meaning a small crack or leak acts like a larger one with it.


but if theres no cracks or leaks to begin with, you dont have to worry.... the O rings are only 2 years old, same with the hoses.

elcamin0_77us

Thats the Key!!! As long as you got a good tight system 134a will do just fine. We've got a 98 and a 2000 with 134a from the factory and they do great down here is SW Georgia. I think if people would go ahead and fix their systems right, they would be please with the results of the 134a. We had a 91 converted over and it did great until I decided to take out a couple of trees 6 months later.

Last thing, If your system has been open for awhile or leaking for a long time it would be a good idea to replace the dryer. Even if you pulled a vacuum on it, you won't get all the moisture out.

Just my 2cents worth.
Bill

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

all these ppeps with 45* temps poo on you... that is hella cold.... that is wear a jacket cold.

in my experience r-12 will always cool better but 134a is safer and cheaper. dont do the conversion ur self like i did... its dangerous and not effiecient. the Hi side plastic cap blew off( i had the adapter fittings on already)and hit my dad ni the arm. that was months ago and he still has a mark.

jason32038

Hi, quick question.... I changed out my ac compressor a couple of weeks ago on my 84 camaro and it doesnt seem to be cooling well. I added 12 oz of oil and 2 lbs of refridgerant. Should I add another lb of refridgerant? Does anyone know the capacity of refridgerant that should be put in after converting to 134A?

Guro 305

3lbs.