StreetRoc85 350

well, the good ol' days of bone chilling R12 are over. that stuff is getting rarer and more expensive by the minute. R134 just isnt the same. my system has been converted, and although it is full of R134 and my compressor is in great shape, it just doesnt get very cold. after 10min of letting it run on a hot day my car will be "comfortable" but it doesnt have that nice chilly feel that i want. there arent a whole lot of threads here that deal with improving your A/C so lets hear it.... How do you make your A/C run colder provided its full of refrigerant and a good compressor? Any tricks? Tips? Anything???

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3.1EyeCandy

I was in the same boat you are - after a fresh rebuild at the shop I did technical writing for. At that time I wished I had gone with R12 (we had some).

What I found was that my car was running within normal temps, but my fan wasn't turning on for the A/C until it was too late to cool it much. I ended up using an adjustable fan relay to lower the fan turn-on temp of one of my fans. This lowered my operating temps a bit, and really helped cool the A/C down. So - double check that your engine cooling is working well.

punkdude908

a company called interdynamics makes this stuff called R-134+ Arctic Freeze

http://www.id-usa.com/product.asp?CID=27&PID=212

the parts store i work at sells it and i've used it and it actually does make the AC colder than regular R-134

fastcar06

eye candy makes a good point about your engine temp and here are some other things to consider:
1. make sure your condenser fins are cleaned.
2. check the cycling of the compressor clutch. some low pressure switches are adjustable on older gm's.
3. when your conversion was done was the proper amount of freon put in. a converted system does not take as much 134 as the 12. i see overcharged systems often.
4. did they evacuate the system and deep vacume the system to rid the system of moisture when the conversion was done. a leaking system left unrepaired can fill the drier full of moisture.
5. check your system pressures to make sure you don't have a small leak.

if all else fails convert back. alot of shops still have r12 in their back room. i know we still have about 90 lbs. but usually don't offer it unless someone asks.

Overcast32

Yeah, I have an R-12 system too, I was considering converting. I know you can find R12 here and there, but it's like gold... I think 134 will be easier to manage overall.

The whole sad part about it, is that the 'freon' scare (like global warming of today, huh? ROFL) was nothing but complete and utter BS!! A couple of years back I worked as a contractor at the USEPA - found out from my co-worker that a person who worked on that project clearly knew....

Freon does in fact, harm the ozone - the only problem is that freon is so much heavier than air it can't get more than 24 inches off of the ground....

The fact is - it can hurt the ozone, but it has ZERO chance of getting up there

pizza_guy

On top of what 3.1eyecandy and fastcar06 said...

The newer R134 systems(e.g. fourth-gens) use a different condenser. It goes in one side and out the other. Think they call that cross-flow. Changing over would require a new line, but it's been done before and pretty much any condesor that will physically fit will work.

Ours has the in and out right by each other, and I don't think it works as well with R134.

Did you change your orifice tube? You need a smaller orifice for R134...the blue one if I remeber right. If you ask your local parts monkey for one from an '84 ford thunderbird, that should fit right in your stock lines. Make sure it is BLUE before you leave the store. Like, obviously blue.

Assuming your system is working correctly, like you said, I would mess with the low-pressure switch. It's the switch on evap. canister(big silver cylinder). If you turn the small screw in the middle of the switch, it'll change the pressure in which the compressor turns on.

The best way to tune it is make an adjustment(e.g. half-turn to full-turn), and drive it for a day. I'd suggest an entire day of driving before deciding if it's better or worse. A screw on tire gauge on the schrader valve on the evap. canister(NOT the one on the line by the frame) can tell you where the switch is switching.

Whew, I think I'm done. There's an awesome article on another camaro forum, but for the life of me I can't think of what the forum was called.

Oh, and I didn't realize freon was heavier than air. Learn something everyday here.

sfusco3

I use this stuff called hot shot or R414b refrigerant which is almost a direct drop in for r 12 and with it I am now blowing 35 degree air from the ducts.

rideon1200

Glad someone else brought up Hot Shot. Drop in replacement, you use 80% of what you would use for R22. No oil to change or any modifications. Dont expect to hear about it at you local shop. They like the 8-900 to swap system over. Hot Shot sells for 9.00 a can. 3 cans will take car of average system.

speedracer0626

Down here we have this stuff called freeze 12 direct drop in replacement. Only one shop here sells it though might buy some cans to put back. Blows cold though did a toyota with it the other day and it was blowing 38*
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Just Asked it and found the web site http://freeze-12.com/
Google it and you can find some interesting stuff http://freeze-12.com/f-12presstemp.html

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Ozz1967

Hmm, I'm going to check my pressure and definitely change my orifice tube this summer on my 84 T/A. Thing's 23 years old now and ever since switching to R134...it's not very cold. The R12 was like ICE. Man I miss it.

StreetRoc85 350

my car runs at about 190. ill have to check that switch, that may help things a bit. how much is that hot shot stuff?

StreetRoc85 350

fhut the wuck? why wont it let me edit my post? oh well, where on the evap canister is that switch and which way do i turn it?

fastcar06

the switch should be on your drier (round cylinder near firewall on pass side). if i remember you turn it clockwise to engage the compressor sooner. somebody can correct me if i'm mistaken. you have to remove the wiring connector to get to it. small screw underneath.

Reid Fleming

First of all, I'd get a temperature probe and stick it in your A/C duct to see what your in cabin temps are. Check it on the highway and around the city.

Your driver side fan should be on everytime the A/C is turned on. Your passenger side fan turns on when the A/C pressure gets high. Are one or both of them on? My passenger fan has a 200-185° fan switch, so it's pretty much on anyways when it's hot outside.

Hot shot or R406a (Autofrost) are what the R-12 people use when they want something colder and cheaper than R-12.

I'm afraid with the humid hot temps that Georgia offers, you're just not going to get good cooling with an R134a system on an R-12 based setup. When they started making new cars with R134a, they had larger condensors, faster fan speeds.

StreetRoc85 350

thats what i was afraid of. now that my system has been converted to r-134 can i still use that hot shot stuff? or is it only for the r12 systems?

Reid Fleming

It's meant for R-12 systems with R-12 oils etc.

The company that makes R406a also makes (made?) a setup called "Cool Top" that was meant for R134a systems. I think they still have some left over. Do a google search for Autofrost and you'll get some results.

StreetRoc85 350

its still an r12 compressor though, will hot shot hurt it?

scott92RS

Have anyone tried using a faster fan or modifier the stock one?

sfusco3

It will not hurt the compressor but if you already converted to 134a then hot shot is not going to help you.

WhiteIrocZ

I jumped the wire that grounds the relay to turn the driver's side fan on when the air is on, to the passenger side fan. I believe they are both green with a white stripe. That way both fans come on whenever the air is on. That way the condesor gets lots of air and stays freezing cold even on the hottest days.

rideon1200

Hot Shot is for systems with R12. If a 134 convertion was done PROPERLY than seals, metering device and components were changed and you paid 8-900 for it. Also the oil was changed. I could see why it is not working to its potential, systems are designed diffrently.

StreetRoc85 350

i didnt do it, it was a previous owner. my compressor still says R12 but the evap canister says R134. also it has R134 fittings on it and is filled with R134. has proper pressure, and as far as i know all components are in good shape.

Silver87

I agree on the HotShot. It is a good R12 replacement. It will not help you though, if the orfice tube is the blue one for R134a. If you change the orfice tube back to the R12 (white colored one I think) and recharge with 80% of original weight of HotShot, it will be much better than what you have now. The fittings would have to be changed back too, so noone could accidently put 134a back in there. I have tried several other refrigerants and other than R12, Hotshot is about the best one I've used. It should be OK with the oil that's in there because the box says it's a R134a, R12, and R500 replacement. It will run a higher head pressure than R12, so you have to keep your condenser clean and make sure your fans are working correctly or you can ruin a compressor from excessive head pressure. Should have a high pressure switch added if you convert from R12 to anything else because of this. I haven't found one yet on my 87 T/A. My single electric fan comes on when the A/C is on, whether the compressor is running or not. Crude, but effective. Some like your dual fan setup may cycle the fan on or off depending on head pressure. Someone else here would have to answer that.
Hope this helps.

Lucid

I hope you guys vacuumed the entire system before adding this stuff. Moisture in the lines will mix with the oil and make it useless, and if you have any leaks that stuff is just going to leak out. Any air in the system is compressible and the compressor will work harder to compress both the air and the R-134a. Not only that, air carries moisture in it, so it will condense in the lines, and water is a noncompressible fluid.

Silver,
You might want to look at a dual fan setup, i put one in my 86 TPI and it works a lot better than the stock setup. I bought it from Ramchargers and i was trying to find you their website but i cant seem to find it.

You might want to look along the A/C lines on the passenger side right next to the engine. The top one goes to the compressor i believe from the drier, and the one on the bottom goes to the condenser (high pressure), there should be a switch there.

Mylilbowtie

http://www.refrigerantsales.com/autofrost.html

http://www.autofrost.com/autodisc.pdf

http://www.autofrost.com/oil/index.html

Looks to be pretty good info. I have very little knowledge of hvac stuff tho.

sfusco3

Just so you guys know the autofrost stuff in the previous post is an hcfc and can only be handled by someone who is licensed

jpfreemanusa

Thanks for the info, I'm researching now and have found this.
Check out this page for something else that may be a viable option.
http://autorefrigerants.us/FAQ.htm
Easy replacement for R12 and/or R134A

DJK90IrocZ

I just got off the phone with EnviroSafe and they told me that if you already have R12 in your working system and if you just need to top off the system, you can add whatever amount is needed to bring your low pressure side guage "in the blue" on their guage.

Has anyone every mixed R12 and Envirosafe 12a successfully without any damage to their A/c components?

I really do not want to replace any parts if I dont have to, since I have the same stock parts on my car.

Thanks for all of your inputs.

supr_fly03

When doing a conversion you need to swap the orfice tube, I preffer a variable orfice tube which is more expensive. Flushing can also be good to get the old oil out of the system. Remember if you flush, you need to replace the oil you flushed out. Anytime you open the system up you should put in a new dryer. You also need to put in the correct R134 conversion oil. When swapping to R134 you should use about 80% of what the requirement for R12 was. Sometimes slightly undercharging (a few oz) will make the system blow a little colder.

DJK90IrocZ

Does anyone know how much of mineral oil needs to be replaced in the system if you are changing out the accumulator, orifice tube and compressor?

Do you recommed pulling a vaccumm on the system after new parts are installed if you are putting in EnviroSafe ES12a?

Swigbeast

I just stumblud upon this thread and it seems the converstaion about envirosafe is a bit dead.

I'm thinking of doing my AC system very soon in my 86 TA and I'd like to know if anyone has had any luck with the ES-12a. This looks like the most promising refrigerant over freeze 12, hot shot, and autofrost.

I'd like to just leak test my system and vacuum it and then have a professional add this stuff for me soon. It sounds like there isn't any need for modifications/ new seals/ etc from what I've read. Can I get a little feedback about it though guys?

Davidgou

Did you ever do this? If you did, what's your opinion of the ES-12A?

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