Quote: Originally Posted by Reid Fleming If the o-rings are the only spots you have a leak, then new o-rings and then you should be good to go. You'd need to vacuum out the remaining R-12 (any shop can do this) and check to make sure it holds a vacuum after everything is finished. Our cars (at least mine does) take 2.25 lbs of R-12 which just happens to coincide with 3 cans of Autofrost exactly. (Autofrost uses 80% of R-12's amount....so 1.8 lbs or 3 cans) Autofrost goes in as a liquid (small cans held upside down to get liquid). There are a few things to do which are all in their online instructions. I'd suggest printing out their instructions and reading them several times. It's not rocket science, but there are safety aspects (do NOT install in the high side while the car is running.) And certain things related to injecting it. You can't just pump all 3 cans in and then start the car. You'd get a bunch of refrigerant slugging the compressor. You need an EPA 609 license to buy the stuff. The 609 test is online and fairly easy. It's a valuable read in my opinion. Do a search on my username and R-406a or autofrost. You'll probably get some good reading material. I have that EPA 609 license too

Use the freeze-12. I got mine off of ebay and you don't have to convert anything.

Don't use Freeze 12 unless you want to have terrible cooling on hot days. And a potentially seized compressor when the mixture seperates as it leaks off and you lose the oil carrying component.

88 degress and still blowing ice cold.

88*F is NOTHING....Some summer nights its still 85*F after midnight and remains 80* even at 6:00 am.

Try a southern climate like Dallas... Your air may blow ice cold when its low humidity and 88*F, but try high humidity and bumper to bumper traffic. With the engine idling, in congested traffic, high humidity, middle of the day sun load, you will be feeling the same way that I do about MOST refrigerants.

I went looking for Autofrost. Their Website has moved around and when I finally found it I couldn't get the buy 406a Autofrost page to open. So my faith level is small. Plus I live in Houston Tx it is like 88 degrees in the winter around here summer is high 90's to low 100's with humidity in the 90% plus range. I was in Death Valley in a 110 day with low humidity and it felt much cooler to me.

http://refrigerantsales.com/ (main page)
http://refrigerantsales.net/shop/ind...ndex&cPath=1_9 (406a page)

I was driving around this afternoon (2PM) with the A/C on. Mid 30's was what I was getting for duct temps. A lot of stop and go city traffic. It gets lower on the highway or during continuous city driving.

Just a tip for people dealing with small cans and filling up their A/C systems. The cheap can toppers are a real pain in the ___. They simply have a metal end that presses against the can of refrigerant. Too easy for it to leak out unless you have it just right.

Here is what I use:

can topper

or

can topper with low pressure gauge

I already have gauges so the 2nd one is redundant. But either way, that red handle topper is a nice piece. It has a thick rubber piece that seals the can when you pierce it. The handle is also nicer to deal with compared to those levers that come on the cheap can toppers.

Here's a pic of the rubber piece on mine.

That's awesome. I have a Camry that blows ice most of the time, but when it gets to 95 outside (houston), the duct temps really increase. You pretty much need the recirc then.

Autofrost sounds like the ticket for me. I may be looking for this soon now that I've got the injectors lined out and the projected highs are back in the mid 90's. This is the hottest place on earth I swear. Not to mention hurricane season is back again.

it was 120* here in cali in 2006. i used to ride my bike around

Alright, so I can't take the heat anymore. It's going to be 98* today. Yesterday I took my car to a shop and they quoted me $300 to evacuate and fill with R-12 assuming no leaks. Right now my system has no pressure at all, but it has also never been touched....ever. I can't really see paying $90 per pound for R-12. Where can I get my car filled with Autofrost in NW houston (290/BW8 area) for a reasonable amount of money? I'm not fully convinced that my system really needs to be evacuated since it has never been opened up.

you all should just agree to disagree.

I just had my AC serviced. I needed a new compressor, Ford orifice tube, and drier. He installed all new orings and is fixing a bad switch, and some botched wiring from the previous owner. The high pressure cutoff switch went bad, so instead of replacing it they bypassed it and hotwired the system. I want it fixed correctly. Finding that switch and the factory pigtail wiring was a BI**H. ANYWAY....

With all the new parts, and the proper amount of 134, my ac works pretty good. I dont know "vent temps" yet but it makes a noticeable difference to the point where I wont hesitate to drive the car in the summer down in the VA heat/humidity

I'll try to get vent temps soon. The guy I took it to said he knew a few tricks to get the 134 to cool a little better in an older car, so we'll see

105 here today and its still blowing ice cold ahhhhhhhhh

I got a guy offering to put in Freeze-12 for $100 assuming no leaks. I'm sure getting mixed information from the local A/C "experts" at the car places. $200 to convert it 134 because "we don't use that other sh*t". Now I got the $100 offer for the Freeze-12. I've seen mixed opinions about Freeze-12 and its ability to carry mineral oil thru the system, and I certainly don't want my expensive compressor ruined trying to save a few bucks on Freon. Autofrost makes the loftiest claims of anyone out there. I just don't want funky stickers added to my immaculate compressor or engine compartment, nor do I want different looking fittings/adapters permanently installed. Someone locally has 4 cans of R-12 and a can of oil shot for $90, I'm seriously considering it now.

Freeze12 is 80% R-134a and 20% R-142b.....R142b is a warmer refrigerant than R-134a. How is 80% R134a going to work with mineral oil? Poorly....That's why even Freeze12 recommends changing to POE oil for the best results when using Freeze12.

Check out how poorly Freeze12 works in mineral oil (not surprising as R-134a would do the same)

Autofrost is 55% R-22, 41% R-142b, and 4% R-600.....R-22 is strong stuff! R-142b helps bring the pressures down to R-12 levels. (Pure R-22 in a car would cool like a ice machine, but send the pressure so high it would blow up the evaporator if not other things). R-600 is isobutane. Good for moving the mineral oil.

Freeze12 gets good marketing because
a) It's called Freeze
b) It's called 12
c) It's cheap
d) It's touted as being compatible with both R-12 and R-134a.

I'd say go for the R-12 and add some leak sensing dye to the system. Should get you through the summer. Least amount of changing parts etc too.

So if you used Autofrost and later on needed to evacuate the system, where could you get something like that done? I know earlier you said most places wouldn't want to do it, so where could you go then? I would like to recharge my car using it but don't want it to cause problems later on if I need to service it.

Two options.

1) Buy a vacuum pump and recovery tank.

2) "Accidental leakage."

Number 2 of course is illegal. Risk is up to you. Granted R-406a doesn't have the ozone killing potential of R-12..... R-12 has a 0.9 rating while R-406a has a 0.055 rating (lower is better) But why do it the illegal polluting way? I think the fine for getting caught is $25,000.

http://www.autofrost.com/autofrost-prof.pdf (shows the GWP global warming potential and ODP ozone depletion numbers for 12, 134a, 406a

X4 was a slightly different blend of R-406a meant to satisfy extreme flammability tests. There is some concern that R-124 can cause liver damage if a huge leak happens (industrial scale).....not a worry for us as the X4 blend isn't made anymore. R-406a has no R-124 in it. R-406a works better and I'm told cheaper to make. No flammability worries with R-406a.


Number 1 would allow you to switch back to R-12 if you wanted. No troubles as the oil is the same (no oil change needed). Once you've bought a tank and vacuum pump, you can send it back to refrigerantsales.com (where you bought the Autofrost in the first place) They'll take R-12 in the same recovery tank as well.

However, considering that a recovery tank holds 25 lbs(?), it would mean you could use it several times for low use personal vehicle type use before sending it back. They'll pay you for the refrigerant you send them back. Shipping of course is your cost.

Interesting. How big of a setup is something like that? Would that be something that could be stored easily off to one side of a garage? How much is a vacuum setup like that and where can I look at them?

Also, could an R-134A vehicle be converted to Autofrost? My 2004 Colorado has a very warm AC that was tested and supposedly inside the normal zone for temp but its just not cool enough on those real hot days, especially for a black truck. I wouldn't mind swapping coolants if it would make a difference.

You know me better then that.

Vacuum pump looks like a portable air compressor. You know, the small ones that have a handle on them. Handy for pumping up your tires at home...... A recovery tank looks like a BBQ propane tank. As far as I know, the only difference between a BBQ propane tank and a recovery tank is that propane has mercaptain (that stinky propane smell which A/C reclaimers hate and will charge you more for when you send it in. If the tank has ever had propane in it, that smell will still be there) and a different hose connection. There are adaptors for BBQ tanks. But you would need to get one that's never had propane in it (sold empty when new)......Honestly it's probably easier to just buy a recovery tank. No propane in them when new and they already have the A/C type connectors.

Figure $200-400 for a vacuum pump (don't cheap out) and $130-150 for a recovery tank. Internet has them. Probably stop by a local A/C supply dealer and see if they sell them too. refrigerantsales.com has all the refrigerants and a recovery tank. They don't have vacuum pumps.

I'd try Cool Top first for your Colorado. Evacuate the R-134a and run a vacuum on it for half an hour. (any shop can do this). Put the Cool Top in yourself following the instructions. Away you go. No adapters needed over the service ports for Cool Top. Worthwhile to buy some pressure gauges and a high quality can topper.

You could convert to R-406a. But it's a more involved process since you're going from PAG/POE oil to mineral oil. It's like converting from R-12 to R-134a only in reverse. Cool Top is easier since it uses the same oil as R-134a. No oil change needed.

Well I got the Autofrost put it in saturday and everything works great AC is cold and comfortable in 100 degree 90 % humidity weather in Houston as of June 22nd so I am happy. If you have an R12 system get the autofrost and yourself a lot of trouble.

It will usually cool even better a day or two after you put it in. The blends are in the process of re-blending together after install. If you spray a garden hose on your condenser, it will re-blend immediately. Or you can let the car sit overnight and it will do it on it's own. (I'm not sure if our night time "lows" of 76°F would slow down the reblend)

My first day after putting it in, it wouldn't go below 35°F (which I still thought was amazing). Driving the car a few days later, it went down to 31° and that's where it's stayed since.

my AC system was hacked together before I bought it. The high pressure sensor went bad, and apparently they couldnt find another so they just spliced the wires together in the harness to make it work.

Well, my secondary fan wasnt working and my pressures were sky high, around 500 to the point the safety on the compressor is surely about to trip. He showed me how to lower the pressure by hosing the condenser with cold water. The pressures IMMEDIATELY dropped....I was amazed! It showed me just how important that second fan is to your AC performance!

Those high pressure switches are discontinued from GM and the aftermarket. I was lucky enough to find a switch AND new pigtail on amazon.com, so im another step closer to proper AC. I'm going to ground my second fan to a toggle switch so I can turn it on/off as needed, and im hoping I'll have functioning ac in my car for the first time since I've owned it

Well, I have read several post bashing Hot Shot. I am a Master HVAC tech with over 20 years in the field. If you do a leak check to ensure you have no leaks, and always replace the schrader valve, there is no reason you have any problems with Hot Shot. R11 and R12 are used in alot of restraunt equipment. Due to the prices of each we used Hot Shot many times. I have also used in my car and many others. It is a good low cost alternative.

I put a different motor in my car last year and while doing so I believe the coolant was leaked out. Do I need to do anything other than just charging my system with Autofrost?

The fans are absolutely vital to air conditioning performance. The thing to remember is that air conditioning isn't making the air cooler. It's simply absorbing the heat and transferring it somewhere else (the condenser). The hotter and muggier the surrounding air around the condenser is, the less heat it can transfer to the outside. Hence those fans need to be on!

I have to wonder about how well the pre 1988 cars did for A/C performance. The second fan was strictly controlled by engine temp. Around 235° before it would turn on. So most of the time, the A/C would be running with just the single fan. In '88, they added the A/C pressure in addition to the engine temp as a reason for the second fan to come on. Much smarter.

There's an instruction sheet link that I posted in the other thread. (Check the thread asking about the o-rings.)

thanks i will look

Yeah I cant find it if you get the link please post. Thanks

i ordered the cooltop. my buddy is coming over to vac it down this weekend. ill let you know how it turns out..

I will be waiting on this...Cooltop would be a good idea for my 2008 Dodge Rams R134a system.

please keep us informed on your progress

I really appreciate the info on the Autofrost! The stuff works great! You were right it was cooler the second day.

I have both my fans running all the time when the engine is on anyways in the GTA.

I need a ac guys opinion here. do you think this kit i found on ebayis worth the money? just for home use.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Autom...motiveQ5fTools

It looks good to me. You still need a recovery tank though.

Another Texas driver here that did the R-134a retrofit and getting the 102 temps here already.

I did a retrofit on my IROC and its definitely leaking somewhere. Is there a way to replace the fan motor or get the fan to blow harder? I guess this would be more of a fabrication type thing or a custom install.

The evaporator seems to be getting cold but the stock blower motor just doesnt push enough air through the evaporator.

Is there a blower motor from a later model car that I could adapt to both my TPI cars?

maybe i just got fed a line of poop, but ill ask anyway.

has anyone ever used a inner tube for a recovery tank?

one of the older guys at work said he has done it a few times. then he just drops the tubes off at a ac shop.

ok i wanted to post the pre cooltop info.. 99 degrees at 2pm. all black convertible.
stuck the thermometerin the vent ,it read 120 before the car is started.

started it up ran around town, temp stayed at 64 at the vent..
I know the system was coverted to 134. but not much else.

ill post the numbers when i do the cooltop charge.(if my deadbeat friend shows up with the pump)

That would be just fine if all you are doing is charging empty systems, kind of overkill in my opinion unless you'll be using it more than once tho.

The car has been vacc'd down and recharged.I was drivinaround on a ovrercast day. my nips were hard as rocks.


update of sorts. i have to play phone tag withn the wife ,as shes drivin this vert. 100 degree day, thermo out of car,.. thermo in vent 120.after about a mile of sit and go traffic the tenms t=dip well into
the 40's



the slow cruise home is where they will b theie perkiest

My 2008 RAM dips into the 30s!

There is this stuff called Freeze 12 that is supposed to be a R12 replacement. http://www.freeze12.com/

My moms B/F just put it in his car and it seems to work really good.

Read the WHOLE thread, already mentioned on the 1st page!

*edit* comment I shouldn't make

But it was true

My mistake.....Vacuum pump is for sucking out air and moisture. Not for sucking out old refrigerant. You'd need a separate refrigerant evacuation pump to do that. My confusion came because there are machines out there that do both.

any updates ?

Actually I'm looking at putting in some Cool Top this week. I'll take some before/after measurements.

When I bought my car in 98 it was needing the A/C recharged. I had the system converted to 134 then. It's been 12 years and needs to be recharged again. Until this summer I have never had any problems with it cooling. Where I live it get to 100+ in the summer with 85 to 98% humidity.