LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Control
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LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Control
EFI Connection now has a prototype engine running with the following (see video):
12200411 LS1 PCM with a true, coil per cylinder, LS1 calibration
LS1 Corvette Electronic Throttle Body "Drive by Wire"
8 LS1 Coils
1989 5.7L TPI long block
Ram Jet 350 Intake Manifold Kit
Ram Jet 350 Camshaft
GM 1.6 Rocker Arms
Background
This really goes back to August 2006, where I posted information in the TPI forum about an OBDII TPI engine (see sticky, TPI OBDII - Thoughts/Opinions). Since that time nearly a dozen 3rd gen f-bodies have upgraded their stock electronics to the 12200411 PCM using the 2001-2002 Express Van calibration. This is the same PCM as used with the LS1, but loaded with a calibration that utilizes a Vortec distributor, ignition module, and single coil. This has been a fantastic replacement of the TPI ECM.
About the Vortec (Distributor) System
The 96-99 Vortec Truck engines and 01-02 Vortec Express Van engines use a 4x crank signal from within the timing cover and a 1x cam signal from within the distributor. All of these engines are equipped with the necessary sensors and hardware to use the 12200411 PCM with the 01-02 Express Van calibration. This offers the use of cable throttle only. The PCM can be loaded with either a 4L60E or 4L80E calibration.
About the LS1 (Distributor-less) System
The LS style engines use a 24x crank signal from within the block. The crank reluctor is pressed on the crankshaft and a sensor is mounted in the side of the block to pick up the signal. The 1x cam signal is generated from a sensor dropped in the top/rear of the engine. This system offers use the use of a 4L60E, 4L80E, and Skip Shift and Reverse Lockout for the T56. Neither the crank or cam components are swappable on the early small block engines as they're LS style specific. The engine pictured is receiving a 24x crank signal from within the timing cover and a 1x cam signal from a Vortec distributor. A custom harness was built to work with the system. A 2002 Corvette LS1/T56 calibration was loaded into the PCM. Basically, the PCM thinks this engine is an LS1 with electronic throttle.
Availability of Components
This engine is the result of a lot of research and development. Some of the pieces that went into making this possible are prototype, "one-off", pieces. This engine is planned for a 1991 Trans Am Convertible project. Any bugs will be identified and get worked out. As the engine sits it is equipped with the first prototype pieces. Knock sensors will move to the sides of the block, coil brackets will be revised, air filter will change, etc.
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Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
What kinda HP/MPG you think you might expect?
I won't know until the 91 Trans Am is done. It's expected to be on the road by this fall. It's getting this engine, a 2002 Trans Am interior swap (including dash), and a T56.
Quote:
What you getting HP/MPH-wise you getting outta the Express Van/Vortec set up?
It wouldn't be fair to throw out any numbers. There are too many different engine combinations and driveline combinations to give an accurate number. Seems to me there was a 6 speed car getting mid 20s on the highway. Best bet is to ask the guys in the sticky thread in the TPI forum.
Quote:
Keep this up, and I'll X my LS plans!
no k-member changes
no headers/exhaust changes
no motor mount changes
no cooling system changes
no AC system changes
Equip the gen 1 engine with the correct components, install a new engine harness, get a tune, and you're on your way!
Last edited by S10Wildside; 05-24-2008 at 12:07 AM.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
I guess I was referring to something like...If you got 15mpg NOW, with a TPI ECM. With a LS1 PCM swap, what kinda increase could be had/guessed at?
I understand that tuning & tweaking has a LOT to do with it, but if the PCM just thinks it's a LS1? How much time & $$ would I spend on dialing it in? Easier to turn a bolt/nut than tuning.
I have a buddy with a TBI/305/T5/2.73 who just knocked down 30mpg! 305/T5/2.73 in his favor, but theTBI part isn't...
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Very interested in this OBDII stuff and your above listed modifications
i'm gonna try to run my 383 off TPI MAF setup...i already believe the factory MAF will be a big restrictor just based on size and flow numbers. If i dont like the power i make, and if i really believe the MAF is holding it back, i have two options to try. 411 PCM swap with newer larger MAF or building my own custom larger tube MAF with TPI MAF guts installed much like TGO member DOC has done
Once the R&D of this current setup you have above is done, I take it you plan to sell this setup from EFIconnection as a kit or wiring harness only setup? IF so, how much do you think that setup will run?
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
MPG gains from OBDII system
Best to ask the guys in the TPI forum who have converted to OBDII. The only answer I can give is "better than with the original electronics".
Cost to convert
It's too early to say and it all depends on whether the conversion pieces are new or used. If you're very much a conservative do-it-yourself kinda guy, you could probably do the conversion for about $500 or so. If you need to have a harness built and buy all of the pieces new, I suppose the price of the system could be around $1500 or so. Again, it's too early to say for sure.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
I have been following the thread in the TPI forum and i think this is a great improvment, not just b/c of the coil pack thing but that you can run a Camaro or Corvette callibration which means T56 support..
Anyway, from what i understand that 'distributorless distributor' is no longer available, so what will be the solution for future installs of this solution?
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
The cam signal comes from a Vortec distributor. It's the sealed cap that is no longer available. I'm working on that and the other few snags. The hardest part is done, the engine runs, and sounds great in person.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 05-27-2008 at 12:13 AM.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
[quote=S10Wildside;3769307]The cam signal comes from a Vortec distributor. It's the sealed cap that is no longer available. I'm working on that and the other few snags. The hardest part is done, the engine runs, and sounds great in person.[/quote]
X2 !! I was fortunate enough to see this in person. All I have to say is "Wow". ... and I can't wait to see how it reacts under a load after some tuning !
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by S10Wildside
The cam signal comes from a Vortec distributor. It's the sealed cap that is no longer available. I'm working on that and the other few snags. The hardest part is done, the engine runs, and sounds great in person.
Ah ok cool, i didnt realise it was just the cap that was no longer available. Will be interested to hear what the alternative is going to be...
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
It's good to see that the 0411 stuff has been furthered more for the gen1 guys.
Good luck on getting all this up and going where you can help everyone interested.
Thanks,
Ron
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuzz
Any progress on project yet?
Ron
Well, it's still going in the 91 Trans Am.
Trans Am Progress
Engine/Transmission is out
Interior is out
Rear End and Gas Tank coming out this week
LS1 3.42 Rear going in (may be shortened to keep original wheels)
LS1 Gas Tank going in (need the fuel level sensor for the LS1 PCM to operate 2002 Trans Am instrument cluster)
Prepping engine compartment for paint
Picked up T56 transmission a few days ago
Ordered a Spec Stage 2+ Clutch
Engine Progress
Coming up with ways to make this ring available
Engine needs painted
Serpentine Accessories need bead blasted and painted
Looking for headers (shorties)
Thinking of ways to keep the EVAP system functional (just a preference)
Harness work is slowing down the progress a little. However, I'm shooting for the middle of July to have the drivetrain buttoned up and ready for the dyno. Hopefully the rest of the car will be done by September/October.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
It's a modified big block ring that fits behind the Vortec timing cover. I'll have more details when the system is fully tested. The engine may be back together by this weekend with front accessories ( so we can finally run it for more than a few minutes).
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
This stuff is amazing to me, and I will hopefully be doing the vortec conversion and LSX PCM in my car in the near future. I have been on the phone a few times with you already, and thank you again for the help. Keep this stuff up, and us gen1 engine guys can once again compete with the newer stuff! I will have my eyes glued to this project as well.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Thank you, whitedevilTA. I'm looking forward to helping you with your project.
UPDATE
Progress has been slow as the car is being prepped for the engine. The engine should be together with front accessories for extended run time on the test stand within the next two weeks. A RoadRunner was ordered from Craig Moates to expedite the tuning process. Time is precious lately, so rather than wasting time with the run-log-stop-modify-flash-run cycle, I'm waiting for the RoadRunner before spending more time on the engine. Besides, there's plenty to do on the car.
"Goodies" for the build:
- LS1 3.42 rear
- LS1 brakes all around
- LT1 T56 transmission
- 4th gen aluminum driveshaft
- SPEC Stage 2+ clutch
- Sub frame connectors
I'll try to get more pics of the engine on this thread after it's all together.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Is somone gonna build these motors and sell them to the public? I think this is a really cool idea cant wait to see the numbers itl make i might want to reconsider swaping in a LT1 in my camaro.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91z 2 8
Is somone gonna build these motors and sell them to the public? I think this is a really cool idea cant wait to see the numbers itl make i might want to reconsider swaping in a LT1 in my camaro.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91z 2 8
Is somone gonna build these motors and sell them to the public? I think this is a really cool idea cant wait to see the numbers itl make i might want to reconsider swaping in a LT1 in my camaro.
Look how far this stuff has come in a couple years.
The curve for this new stuff will probably take as long to get it up because more stuff has to be fabricated.
It'll happen if a bunch jumps on the bandwagon and shares their progress.
Ron
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
The engine is buttoned up again after a minor revision to the crank timing ring. The front accessories are being painted and it is likely that this will be running on the test stand this weekend...with coolant, alternator, and electric fans.
The 91 TA is just about torn down and ready for some cleaning, a little paint (bottom side), engine compartment paint, and installation of the new drivetrain.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Update.
Yesterday we spent some time with the engine, a wideband O2, and EFILive. The test stand doesn't apply load to the engine, so there is only minimal tuning that can be done. The tuning is going well and it is likely that the engine will be done (with tuning) and off the stand by the end of this week. After that it's ready to go in the car. The car is not yet ready for the engine.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 07-13-2008 at 07:30 AM.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
The engine had some more run time tonight. All is going well so far.
Not that these tests are overly significant, but I do have a few screens to share that show progress.
Speed Density Tuning at Idle
There is not much tuning to do at idle, but changes were made to the VE table to get the Air/Fuel ratio closer to 14.7 in the engine's test stand operating range. Not much time was spent on this because it's not critical at the moment. The main concern was the lean conditions seen while revving the engine.
Injector Balance Test
This just demonstrates that the engine is running well at idle on all cylinders. The RPM variance was within 9 rpm during the test.
Impressive Idle
Just for the heck of it I took manual control of the idle (bi-directional control panel) and was able to command the idle to 400rpm and saw an idle range of 400-500rpm before the engine stalled out. The engine noticably held an idle that I've never seen with OBDI systems. This is not significant to normal operation of the engine, but was interesting to see.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
You're lean at 4,000 rpms @ 15 KPA because most likely that area is under deceleration (19.xx is still on the too lean side for decel), but a lean value under decel is normal....
__________________ 1991 Z-28 (Black - Hardtop) 355ci TPI/SLP, Ported Vortec heads, Comp XR276HR-12, Hooker 2210 Longtubes / custom 3" Y-pipe with 3 1/2" mufflex cat-back, Borg Warner T-56, PROM tuned by me!, 3.73's, Hotchkis suspension, custom high-flow lid and ram-air, ALL the bolt-ons, custom Boyd Coddington "1bad91Z" Billet Wheels.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad91Z
You're lean at 4,000 rpms @ 15 KPA because most likely that area is under deceleration (19.xx is still on the too lean side for decel), but a lean value under decel is normal....
Thank you. I did notice that I hit a wall with the VE values...as shown below. Increasing the VE values for the lean condition has little to no effect. It's been a long time since I did any tuning...and that was with OBDI systems.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
subscribing, this is impressive, i am debating doing the OBDII TPI since i have an extra vortec computer and several parts for a build that never happened
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
We did get the LT1 running today. Here is the video, all 16mb of it. Click for video.
Worth mentioning:
- still in development
- 2002 f-body calibration in 12200411 LS1 PCM (modified with LT1 fuel table)
- no optispark, it is 100% gone!
- crank signal from within 96-97 LT1 timing cover
- cam signal from within 96-97 LT1 timing cover
- stay tuned
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad91Z
You're lean at 4,000 rpms @ 15 KPA because most likely that area is under deceleration (19.xx is still on the too lean side for decel), but a lean value under decel is normal....
At that RPM/Vacuum reading the fuel should be SHUT-OFF COMPLETELY by the Deceleration Fuel Cut-Off routine in the PCM. No fuel should be flowing from the injectors. My wideband displays AIR when I am in DFCO. My PCM datastream sees it as maxed out at 25:1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S10Wildside
Impressive Idle
Just for the heck of it I took manual control of the idle (bi-directional control panel) and was able to command the idle to 400rpm and saw an idle range of 400-500rpm before the engine stalled out. The engine noticably held an idle that I've never seen with OBDI systems. This is not significant to normal operation of the engine, but was interesting to see.
That is impressive NICE WORK! However I have idled TBI engines down to 400 RPM while setting the minimum air rate before. Some stock TBI engines have a 450 RPM spec on the minimum air rate. Most idle around 525 in Drive.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Very cool, I am interested. My only concern is, this seems like a lot of work, in fact it seems the same as the part of an LSx swap that is most intimidating to me, and others. Will the returns be worth it in power and drivability?
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN454
Very cool, I am interested. My only concern is, this seems like a lot of work, in fact it seems the same as the part of an LSx swap that is most intimidating to me, and others. Will the returns be worth it in power and drivability?
I absolutely agree that you would have to weigh your options. I put together a brief comparison of the significant steps for the three different engines. If you are a 3rd gen f-body owner and are comparing the installation tasks between the three engines, the major items would be as follows.
Notice the difference between putting an LS1 engine in the car and equipping the V8 already sitting in the car with the bolt-ons to make the coil per cylinder system work. To most, the required changes to put an LS1 engine in a 3rd gen will be a major undertaking. I think there is very little in common between putting an LS1 engine in a 3rd gen car and bolting on the coil per cylinder pieces to the TPI engine.
Equipping a TPI engine with coil per cylinder can be as easy as mounting coils, slipping the crank timing ring on the crank, installing the vortec timing cover with crank sensor, and installing the vortec distributor as the cam sensor.
Making any LS1 PCM system work with the car will require a new engine harness.
Weighing the differences...
- Without a power adder, the LS1 is going to out perform the Gen 1 and Gen 2 (LT1) engines, regardless of which PCM is used.
- Any engine swap is going to be a lot of work...especially the LS1 engine swap.
- I wouldn't expect drivability to be any different between the three engines if the same PCM is being used.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Could we use the big block reluctor with a crank spacer or shim? It seems like it would be easier than machining reluctor.
I dropped my tpi intake and went to a LT1 intake. I was going to do the distributor mod but now I don't know. This mod sounds and looks a lot better and easier.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
by far the easiest way to do this is to just swap to a vortec block. You would need the vortec wiring harness too out of a 96-99 as previously mentioned, but the 411 swap is incredible common in the truck with that motor, all you have to do is re-pin the ecm connector into the connector for the 411 ecm and youre good to go.
I'm planning on doing this in the next 2-3 weeks for my 97 yukon
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by wgeous
Could we use the big block reluctor with a crank spacer or shim? It seems like it would be easier than machining reluctor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S10Wildside
It's a modified big block ring that fits behind the Vortec timing cover. I'll have more details when the system is fully tested.
Quote:
I dropped my tpi intake and went to a LT1 intake. I was going to do the distributor mod but now I don't know. This mod sounds and looks a lot better and easier.
You will still need to drill a distributor hole in the LT1 intake to get the cam signal.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19doug90
by far the easiest way to do this is to just swap to a vortec block. You would need the vortec wiring harness too out of a 96-99 as previously mentioned, but the 411 swap is incredible common in the truck with that motor, all you have to do is re-pin the ecm connector into the connector for the 411 ecm and youre good to go.
This may be true for a truck.
Be careful about this. The truck harness will not fit a TPI intake without a lot of rework. The engine harness on the Vortec engines does not route behind the engine like the TPI engines.
By the time you pull the V8 currently sitting in the f-body to replace it with a Vortec engine, you could have installed the Vortec distributor, crank reluctor, timing cover, and have a lot of time to spare.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
where would one find that sealed cap for the dist/cam sensor? how did you come across yours? i didnt know they made such a thing and who exactly made it? if one was to go the other route with the vortec dist. and such, ive read that the tune is for an express van (4l60e, 4l80e) can that be made to work on a manual car? (i swapped the 700r4 out for a t-10..) would it be wiser to go with a completely new custom harness to fit the car rather than butchering up old ones?
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by S10Wildside
This may be true for a truck.
Be careful about this. The truck harness will not fit a TPI intake without a lot of rework. The engine harness on the Vortec engines does not route behind the engine like the TPI engines.
By the time you pull the V8 currently sitting in the f-body to replace it with a Vortec engine, you could have installed the Vortec distributor, crank reluctor, timing cover, and have a lot of time to spare.
hah ya that being said im not looking forward to putting the tpi intake on my 97 yukon the harness runs accross the freakin intake, worst designed system ever. I cant imagine it being that bad as far as sensors, having to lengthen a cts wire is no biggie. More so the throttle, kickdown and cruise cables that might get interesting.
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
Quote:
Originally Posted by 72vega
where would one find that sealed cap for the dist/cam sensor? how did you come across yours? i didnt know they made such a thing and who exactly made it?
The sealed cap was sold through GM (it came in an AC Delco box). The part has been discontinued by GM. Vintage Parts purchased the remaining inventory. My local GM parts department had to get the last one from Vintage Parts for me.
Quote:
if one was to go the other route with the vortec dist. and such, ive read that the tune is for an express van (4l60e, 4l80e) can that be made to work on a manual car?
Yes, I know of at least two cars with that system and a six speed manual. The calibration does not provide reverse lockout. Keep in mind this is more of a tuner question than a harness question.
Quote:
would it be wiser to go with a completely new custom harness to fit the car rather than butchering up old ones?
Re: LS1 PCM Controlled Gen 1 SBC, Coil per Cylinder, and even Electronic Throttle Con
thats what i meant by it being made work (reprogramming).. anyways do you have the part number for the cap incase i come across one? also besides the vans, f bodies, and vettes, what other vehicles use the 12200411 pcm?
What kinda HP/MPG you think you might expect? What you getting HP/MPH-wise you getting outta the Express Van/Vortec set up?
