NEW adapter board for megasquirtII to 86-88 tpi cars

[syntax terror]

Count me in on the 90-92 TPI adapter board.

[83 Crossfire TA]

I _finally_ finished building my MSII, as well as my adapter board, megastim... got it tested..., I'm ready to install it in my _stock_ TPI project car (this one is an '87 LB9/5speed Trans Am, I figured I'd get the MS working before I rip the engine apart and slapped a turbo on it)

Can anyone point me at a good file to start with to minimize what I need to track down to get things running right?

thanks... Hopefully I'll know if the adapter board works tomorrow...

[83 Crossfire TA]

While I'm asking questions about this thing, will it work OK if I used a 37pin straight through cable to connect the MS to the adapter board? I'm thinking that I might want to tuck the harness in the dash, and mount the MS for easy access to an exposed trim panel...

[WASyL]

Originally Posted by 83 Crossfire TA

I _finally_ finished building my MSII, as well as my adapter board, megastim... got it tested..., I'm ready to install it in my _stock_ TPI project car (this one is an '87 LB9/5speed Trans Am, I figured I'd get the MS working before I rip the engine apart and slapped a turbo on it)

Can anyone point me at a good file to start with to minimize what I need to track down to get things running right?

thanks... Hopefully I'll know if the adapter board works tomorrow...

please give me your inj. size, code that You are useing (here is manual strict for 2.8X http://www.megamanual.com/mt28.htm and here how to make it 2.89 if you don't have it yet http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/code.htm) and i can prepeare basic MSQ for you so that the engine should fire up and have quite well idle so that you can start tuning, i hope you have read megamanual more than once, and remeber setting Trigger Offset is crucial to make engine use its full power, so a good timing lamp will be needed, do you have WB o2, if yes which one ?

best regards

[83 Crossfire TA]

Originally Posted by WASyL

please give me your inj. size, code that You are useing (here is manual strict for 2.8X http://www.megamanual.com/mt28.htm and here how to make it 2.89 if you don't have it yet http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/code.htm) and i can prepeare basic MSQ for you so that the engine should fire up and have quite well idle so that you can start tuning, i hope you have read megamanual more than once, and remeber setting Trigger Offset is crucial to make engine use its full power, so a good timing lamp will be needed, do you have WB o2, if yes which one ?

best regards

I used the downloader to install 2.890 during the build process...

As far as the car, as far as I've checked, it should be a totally stock, 87 305 LB9 (TPI), which should have 19pph injectors.

I figured that I would just set the ignition settings (trigger...) as suggested on the gm hei page:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_7pinHEI.htm

thanks...

[83 Crossfire TA]

Oh, I have an LM1 that I will be using eventually, but for now it will be just the stock NB O2...

[jbucago]

Does anyone have part numbers for the MS stuff im converting to TPI from TBI and i would like to know which set up is most ideal for me.. that item that plugs right in to stock harness sounds great and interesting!!!! i definatly want a MS in my future!!!

[WASyL]

TPI MAF stock harness, MS2 http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...4ae45e1b2e1d1e and TPI adapter board http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...4ae45e1b2e1d1e with parts for soldering listed there

best regards

[workman91z28]

count me in on the adapter for a 91 z28

[efi-diy]

STRONGLY RECOMMEND YOU DO NOT USE A 37 PIN COMPUTER CABLE. These cables are meant for computer data not carrying current they typically use 24-28 ga wire.

If you build you on cable out of 18 ga wire sure go ahead. Make sure you use twist pair wires for the CLT, TPS, MAP (if you not using the board mounted one), O2, & MAT.

Don't cheap out on the ground wires - run all of them.

But once your started up & tuned - you really don't have to get at the MS box very often. I just leave a DB-9 cable attached to hook up the laptop.

Speaking of initial start-up, before you swap the ECM for MS do yourself 2 favours:

1) Warm the engine up to operating temp - so you don't have to try and mess with the warm up values. Once running set the VE table at idle. This is step one of tuning. Next time the engine is cold if you think its lean during cold crank - cycle the power to the MS 2-3 time it'll squirt a prime shot each power on. Then try and start. Once you get it running use the warm up wizard to set the enrichment. This is an iterative process as you only get one shot at it each cold start.
2) Disconnect the set time connector and set your base timing (turn the dist.) to say 12* BTDC and leave the set timing connector UNPLUGED until after you get the engine idling by setting the VE table. This way your messing only with one variable the VE table.

[83 Crossfire TA]

Well, I got mine "running" last night, but I ran into a few glitches/questions based on what was said here vs. instructions... In no particular order (well, re-reading the thread and as I come across them I'll quote/ask to try get things cleared up in an organized fashion):

Originally Posted by thunder85

it does knock sensing... the circuit is built on the adapter board to bring the knock signal into pin pin 6.

i will probably be recording some video this weekend of the board, setup, etc.

anything in particular you guys want to see pictures of or have questions on?

in the adapter instructions it says 'To use the knock sensor input, run a jumper wire from JS4 to SPR4,' Does SPR4 connect to pin 6?

Further it gives a link to a more detailed knock sensor discussion which specifies that the KS signal is too high a voltage for the processor terminal attached to JS4 to handle directly, and suggests using a resistor and zener diode to lower it. Is that still necessary or is that handled by the adapter board (the adapter board does have what appear to be a resistor and zener in it, but I can't find a schematic that makes it clear that is what it's doing)?

[83 Crossfire TA]

Originally Posted by efi-diy

See mid body reply for your answers... Also please use a '7747 as the donor ECM - see above posts for details on the connector pin sizes.
Originally Posted by ChobbyTA View Post
efi-diy:

Correct the adapter adds no extra circuitry to the tach input circuit.

One last question, is the module always controlled by the MS using this adapter? What I mean is while in cranking mode does the module controls the timing or does the Megasquirt?

If you connect pin C9 on the GM ECM connector to the starter crank circuit via a 1 or 2 amp fuse then relay LS1 will send the HEI module 0V during cranking (default timing controlled by the HEI module same as if you unplug the set timing connector) and +5V during run (MS controls the timing).

If you leave pin C9 unconnected MS will control the timing during cranking - just program in say 0-10* advance and your good. The amount of advance will depend on what your engine wants during cranking.

I think that actually addresses the second problem that I ran into (it won't start with the timing connector connected), but that raises a minor related question:

Has anyone found a good "hot while cranking" source on that side of the dash, or am I stuck rooting around the other side and running an odd wire (I'm tryign to prevent anything confusing with the wiring harness in the future).

While I'm asking "where did you get questions" where is everyone routing their MAP vacuum line from and through the firewall?

[WASyL]

MAP vac line - on firewall just next to the relays (maf,fuelpump,burnoff) there is a whole you can use

if you recieve "hot while cranking" - yes it was suppose to be p&p but some off aftermarket ign modules cannot work with power supply while cranking so you need to make small wiring with one relay, here is instruction with pictures: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_7pinHEI.htm
on this good side of the dash is on radio-player harness that is not beeing supplied in power while cranking

best regards

[efi-diy]

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pcb.htm

The MS 3.00 main board schematics are at the bottom of the page. DB37 pin 6 (SPR4) connects to the zener/resistor junction then through the resistor to the GM harness connector. The zener/resistor were added to the adapter board for the knock input.

Originally Posted by 83 Crossfire TA

Well, I got mine "running" last night, but I ran into a few glitches/questions based on what was said here vs. instructions... In no particular order (well, re-reading the thread and as I come across them I'll quote/ask to try get things cleared up in an organized fashion):



in the adapter instructions it says 'To use the knock sensor input, run a jumper wire from JS4 to SPR4,' Does SPR4 connect to pin 6?

Further it gives a link to a more detailed knock sensor discussion which specifies that the KS signal is too high a voltage for the processor terminal attached to JS4 to handle directly, and suggests using a resistor and zener diode to lower it. Is that still necessary or is that handled by the adapter board (the adapter board does have what appear to be a resistor and zener in it, but I can't find a schematic that makes it clear that is what it's doing)?

[Toehead]

Originally Posted by 83 Crossfire TA

I think that actually addresses the second problem that I ran into (it won't start with the timing connector connected), but that raises a minor related question:

Has anyone found a good "hot while cranking" source on that side of the dash, or am I stuck rooting around the other side and running an odd wire (I'm tryign to prevent anything confusing with the wiring harness in the future).

While I'm asking "where did you get questions" where is everyone routing their MAP vacuum line from and through the firewall?

Do you still need a tune? I have a really good tune on an 89 LB9 car.

[83 Crossfire TA]

Originally Posted by Toehead

Do you still need a tune? I have a really good tune on an 89 LB9 car.

Well, sure...

I have what I put together by reading the instructions and importing tables from some GM ecm chips that I've burnt that WASyL looked at and said looks OK with a couple of recommendations what to change, and then a second tune that he sent me and suggested I try as a starting point, so sure, if you have a tune that you know works well for an LB9 that would be great.

As far as what is happening on my end, my '97 WS6 ate it's serpentine belt doing some other damage Friday night, and we suddenly had our first snow storm of the season Saturday which killed any chances of me doing the rewiring that I was hoping to do this weekend since I can't get the car in the garage anyway:
- I need to find a hot when cranking circuit and run it to the pin on the ecm harness to trigger the relay on the adapter board,
- and second, I'm about 90% decided that I'm not going to run the on board MAP... Seems like too much of a pain to get the vacuum line to the ecm inside the passenger compartment and the longer the line/more branches the less accurate it will be. On my previous L98 car, when I did a '730 conversion I just pulled the MAF wiring out of the harness, ran 3 of the conductors to a separate MAF plug that I ran to the firewall right behind the engine and mounted a 2 bar map there, and then just re-pinned on the harness end. Seems like that would be much less of a hassle. I'm just not positive how to run the 2 non signal lines from the MAP.

[syntax terror]

Can you upgrade to ms2extra in the future with this set up?

[efi-diy]

Yes you can..

[89fbirdformula]

argh...this puter EFI **** gives me a headache.

without being too newbish, ive been reading back and forth, page after page on many threads...

can someone point out exactly what is needed to do this? links and such are helpful for each item needed.

also, i am very good at soldering, but the thought of doing this on a CARS pcb AND FRYING something un nerve me, are there any ways to get everything TRULEY plug and play?

my car is a Heads/cam/intake 89 formula manual trans, have a single turbo kit waiting, is this system capable of providing fueling/timing needs of a boosted motor? for now i plan on spraying the car...any cool things to handle nitrous?

[Scorpner]

Originally Posted by 89fbirdformula

argh...this puter EFI **** gives me a headache.

without being too newbish, ive been reading back and forth, page after page on many threads...

can someone point out exactly what is needed to do this? links and such are helpful for each item needed.

also, i am very good at soldering, but the thought of doing this on a CARS pcb AND FRYING something un nerve me, are there any ways to get everything TRULEY plug and play?

Could try getting an extra one from a junkyard to modify?

[Drac0nic]

Originally Posted by 89fbirdformula

argh...this puter EFI **** gives me a headache.

without being too newbish, ive been reading back and forth, page after page on many threads...

can someone point out exactly what is needed to do this? links and such are helpful for each item needed.

also, i am very good at soldering, but the thought of doing this on a CARS pcb AND FRYING something un nerve me, are there any ways to get everything TRULEY plug and play?

my car is a Heads/cam/intake 89 formula manual trans, have a single turbo kit waiting, is this system capable of providing fueling/timing needs of a boosted motor? for now i plan on spraying the car...any cool things to handle nitrous?

MS-II handles Nitrous and forced induction out of the box. It actually has a MAP sensor good for ~20 PSI.

[NufNuffZ28]

Originally Posted by efi-diy

The adapter board supports an engine mounted MAP sensor - use the MAF signal line as the MAP input. Add one jumper to connect the external MAP up inside the MS - check the assembly instructions on the DIYautotune page for details to wire up the external MAP.http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_arti...pter_board.htm <<< note this link may go broken soon as DIY is updating the '165 instructions. You can retain your onboard MAP sensor for real time baro correction the instructions are in the megamanual for hooking up the real time baro.

can you explain the MAP situation...

In one way it sounds like you are saying simply, cut the wires to MAF and wire them to a MAP sensor(included). but you also state a GM MAP can be used. What's the differnce on which one to use?

I have a Supercharged 87 Iroc with 18 lbs of boost... right now it has a MAF, FMU, and two extra injectors for fuel enrichment. I wanna get rid of all of that and go simpler if possible...

Thanks

Chris

[efi-diy]

can you explain the MAP situation...

In one way it sounds like you are saying simply, cut the wires to MAF and wire them to***** an engine mounted GM 2bar MAP sensor (not included) or run a vacumm line from the manifold to the MS main board and connect it to the board mounted MAP sensor (included)***.


By using the engine mounted MAP sensor for engine load and the board mounted MAP sensor (sensor is open to the air) for real time barometric correction this is useful if you live in a mountain area where you are going up and down hills during your drive. The real time baro sensor will kept your tune on track as you change elevation.

If you live in a flat area this is less useful and you can connect the MAP signal to either of the above options and it will be fine.

Once you change over you will still need a boost referenced 1:1 fuel pressure regulator and bigger injectors (hi-impeadance).

I have a Supercharged 87 Iroc with 18 lbs of boost... right now it has a MAF, FMU, and two extra injectors for fuel enrichment. I wanna get rid of all of that and go simpler if possible...

[NufNuffZ28]

Originally Posted by efi-diy

can you explain the MAP situation...

In one way it sounds like you are saying simply, cut the wires to MAF and wire them to***** an engine mounted GM 2bar MAP sensor (not included) or run a vacumm line from the manifold to the MS main board and connect it to the board mounted MAP sensor (included)***.


By using the engine mounted MAP sensor for engine load and the board mounted MAP sensor (sensor is open to the air) for real time barometric correction this is useful if you live in a mountain area where you are going up and down hills during your drive. The real time baro sensor will kept your tune on track as you change elevation.

If you live in a flat area this is less useful and you can connect the MAP signal to either of the above options and it will be fine.

Once you change over you will still need a boost referenced 1:1 fuel pressure regulator and bigger injectors (hi-impeadance).

I have a Supercharged 87 Iroc with 18 lbs of boost... right now it has a MAF, FMU, and two extra injectors for fuel enrichment. I wanna get rid of all of that and go simpler if possible...

OK, I understand the MAP situation better now.

BUT with that being said, are you saying it's not that useful for supercharged applications as there is no way to increase fuel delivery compared to boost? If there was there would be no need for a 1/1 boost refernced regulator like I now have...

[efi-diy]

You need to keep the pressure drop across the injectors constant regardless of mainfold pressure - thus the need for the 1:1 FPR.

[NufNuffZ28]

I would like to get this setup, but can I contact you directly instead of clogging up your thread with newbie questions?

I thought that with a MAP sensor as boost increased the MAP sensor saw the boost and then the computer would compensate by adding more fuel without the need for a FPR.

By 1:1 you mean for every psi of boost the fuel pressure increases 1 lb as well, correct? Thats how mine is now

[efi-diy]

Originally Posted by NufNuffZ28

I would like to get this setup, but can I contact you directly instead of clogging up your thread with newbie questions?

I thought that with a MAP sensor as boost increased the MAP sensor saw the boost and then the computer would compensate by adding more fuel without the need for a FPR.

By 1:1 you mean for every psi of boost the fuel pressure increases 1 lb as well, correct? Thats how mine is now

Correct.


Contact diyautotune to purchase this setup

http://diyautotune.com

[NufNuffZ28]

Originally Posted by efi-diy

Correct.


Contact diyautotune to purchase this setup

http://diyautotune.com

OK, I still don't see why I need an FMU. Some other systems say I just need a regular fuel pressure regulator. I want to get rid of the Vortech FMU if possible. Is there a number I can call to talk to someone?

[efi-diy]

Originally Posted by NufNuffZ28

OK, I still don't see why I need an FMU. Some other systems say I just need a regular fuel pressure regulator. I want to get rid of the Vortech FMU if possible. Is there a number I can call to talk to someone?

The one assumption that MS requires is a constant pressure across the injector.

contact matt@diyautotune.com for support. If needed they can supply a phone # on a case by case basis.

[NufNuffZ28]

Originally Posted by efi-diy

The one assumption that MS requires is a constant pressure across the injector.

contact matt@diyautotune.com for support. If needed they can supply a phone # on a case by case basis.

OK, if constant I understand that and the Fuel pressure regulator will do that.

I will be in contact.

Thanks again

[WASyL]

Originally Posted by efi-diy

The one assumption that MS requires is a constant pressure across the injector.

well You can just put AFPR, adjust fuel pressure to requested value and do not connect vacuum hose to it, it will then keep constant

best regards

[Matt Cramer]

You will need injectors that flow enough at your regular fuel pressure - sometimes a rising rate regulator is used to compensate for injectors that are too small. You may need larger injectors if you remove the FMU.

[efi-diy]

Quick poll - how many folks are using this setup?

[WASyL]

what setup ? my one is MSII + TPI board and works perfect now

best regards

[Maverick H1L]

Quick question (I'll be buying mine as soon as the tax man pays me )...

What do you guys use to get that varnish crap off of the ECM board to harvest the connectors? I have a proven-junk ECM I want to use for this.

Also... Why are you guys making it so difficult to run a vac line to the MS? I mean, where the ECM is mounted stock, there is a manifold vacuum line RIGHT THERE... The HVAC input line is more than accessible down there, you know? No drilling, no BS... Just cut the HVAC line and install a T...

[thunder85]

If i recall the manifold vacuum line to the hvac controls has a check valve on it, which makes it about worthless for realtime vacuum readings.

[Maverick H1L]

Hmm... Could do what I did and get rid of the check valve (it broke, actually)...

[efi-diy]

You can use the wire connected to ECM pin B12 to connect the stock MAP sensor to. No need to run the hose. You will need to add a jumper on the MS main board though to connect pin 5 on the MS 37 pin connector to the internal MAP sensor input.

As far as getting the connector off the stock ecm - I use a heat gun and get the connector off in one go. Don't care about the stock board - its a toss away any way. Clamp the connector in a vise with the pin end vertical so the heat won't travel down the pin easy.

[Maverick H1L]

Originally Posted by efi-diy

You can use the wire connected to ECM pin B12 to connect the stock MAP sensor to. No need to run the hose. You will need to add a jumper on the MS main board though to connect pin 5 on the MS 37 pin connector to the internal MAP sensor input.

As far as getting the connector off the stock ecm - I use a heat gun and get the connector off in one go. Don't care about the stock board - its a toss away any way. Clamp the connector in a vise with the pin end vertical so the heat won't travel down the pin easy.

Thanks for the tips... Going MAF/MAP here though. Might as well use the connections while I've got them (no turbo). Could be a bit difficult getting the connections out of the ECM, though (no vise OR heat gun, yet ).

[Maverick H1L]

Are there any schematics for the TPI adaptor board? I'm looking to add a couple more inputs and I'm curious as to what pins I can use. I'm most especially interested in adding a second O2S. So far, I have the standard temp sensors, the TPS, one O2S, and the MAF, and I'm looking into adding the second O2S, knock, and possibly a GM MAP if possible (have the onboard MSII MAP set up for BARO correction as soon as I solder the other end of the wire).

[efi-diy]

Pin A4 is connected to MS pin 4 - its unassigned so you can use it for any signal. All the other MS pins are assigned.

[WASyL]

And which one should i use to control nitrous system ?

best regards

[efi-diy]

Originally Posted by WASyL

And which one should i use to control nitrous system ?

best regards

If you have a manual transmission then you can use the 4L60 TC lockup output to run the N02.

The circuit is shown here PLEASE NOTE THIS IS THE SCHEMATIC FOR THE '747 TBI BOARD. The '165 is close - a few pins on the GM connector changed and MS spareout2 was added to the '165 adapter.

http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_arti...schematics.pdf

[Maverick H1L]

I found these for the '165 adaptor... http://www.diyautotune.com/downloads...schematics.pdf It's a PDF, so Acrobat is required...

Question about D6, the O2S ground... Can I use that in A4 for the second O2S (my dumb rear cut off the EGR wiring that was in A4 so I can't use that ), or is it used for another purpose? What does that "TP7 TP" mean in the schematic?

[efi-diy]

Originally Posted by Maverick H1L

I found these for the '165 adaptor... http://www.diyautotune.com/downloads...schematics.pdf It's a PDF, so Acrobat is required...

Question about D6, the O2S ground... Can I use that in A4 for the second O2S (my dumb rear cut off the EGR wiring that was in A4 so I can't use that ), or is it used for another purpose? What does that "TP7 TP" mean in the schematic?

You could but the copper trace for D6 does not connect to the MS D37 connector. It stops at TP7 (TP == testpoint) - look at the board on the top side between the connectors... to use it you will need to add a 24ga wire from TP7 to the pin of your choice on the MS connector. And then jumper wire from that pin on the Ms main board to the 2nd 02 input circuit.

[Maverick H1L]

I think you may have misunderstood me... I was wondering if the D6 wire was being used for anything because if it isn't, I'm going to move it to A4 for the second O2S (I've switched and removed a lot of wires in those 2 connectors already, having rewired what was used for the 302 ECM for the 165). But, I guess I got my answer.

[efi-diy]

Why not just add a wire to A4 ... these connectors are easy to find in the wreckers... find an '88 to 92 TBI truck and wack 3' of harness off.

[efi-diy]

Any project updates on this?