DFI and ECMDiscuss all aspects of DFI (Digital Fuel Injection), ECMs (Electronic Control Module), scanners, and diagnostic equipment. Fine tune your Third Gen computer system for top performance.
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Well to begin with I'm absolutely new to all this high fangled stuff being and OLD 60's 70's carb guy but what the heck, gotta try right? Sooo here we go!
The motor I put together is a 383 stroker with an Eagle rotating assembly, X-RAM manifold, and AFR 195 heads.
Cam is a Comp Cams 268fxi camshaft using 1.6 rockers.
I'm using stock exhaust manifolds with A.I.R. ports welded shut and a true dual exhaust system with no catalytic converter but does have the oxygen sensor provision. Note that I'm running a heated AC DELCO AFS-74 NB O2 sensor
I'm using a Dynamic EFI EBL FLASH computer from RBOB and using tuner pro as my program.
The trans is the 700r4 with a shift kit and 1900 rpm stall converter.
TBI's have been bored to 2" and currently running matched 80lb injectors at 22lbs pressure
I started out withe a modified 5.3l bin which for the life of me can't figure out where i got it or why i chose it but thats' what the car has been running on well...( fine except when u put your foot in it) so i will continue to modify that as needed i guess.
After taking several stabs in the dark at this tuning thing I've decided to bite the bullet and try to do it HOPEFULLY the right way. Considering TGO has tons of information in it's posts and RBob has bent over backward to help (and he's a moderator here yeah!!!) I can't help but think this is the place to be!
At any rate i printed out the EMBEDDED LOCKERS FLASH CALIBRATION TABLES definition list off Bobs disc and went thru it item by item comparing the settings i have now to the 1985 Camaro LG4 TBI VIN engine (with a 350 TBI unit AND TH350 trans) as a starting point. That HOPEFULLY at least gave me a clue what all the acronyms mean and possibly red flag items that don't look right . At this point in time I'd like to run thru some of this stuff item by item in how many posts it takes and see what y'all think.
BPC has been calculated and entered.
Air flow scaler as well.
I just set the FP to 22 so as i get back going again we'll see how that does,
No $$$ for the FAFPR or IAT for now, but as i learn more and the the economy gets better that will be in the works.
Just worked thru and issue with BobR with the car not going into closed loop so so far that's all I've ran in is open loop.
Again I'm going thru Bobs material page by page and checking my bin against the stock one. Not saying that will work either for this motor but it appears the bin i have has been changed
I've probably drove he car 30 miles total. At the rate is going thru fuel burning a valve shouldn't be an issue.
At present here are a few of the settings that the care has run on.
Entry: VSS - Filter Filt% is set at 75.29%
RPM - Filter for 12.5 RPM is set at 81.57%
CTS - Filter is set at 6.27%
All are same as the stock F bin listed above so hopefull they are close
Lets do this like this. Black numbers are my bin and red are the 85 Camaro.
Hopefully somebody will comment on these numbers yea or nay. I'd like to rum them them all if possible OVER TIME. The more input the better. I really don't want to go farther in the tune process without more input on what I've got. That way hopefully i won't do any damage the the motor and can lean as well.
I never changed any of those. I used stock 305 .bin and I have a 350cid. I had my NB02 sensor just behinf collector flange. It would go CL but fall out of CL as my speed hit 55mph. this was with eviromental temps <70F. Fix was a heated NB. Now it goes CL at 160 on coolant and stays.
You need to get it to CL. Check what your .bin says for those parameters to allow CL.
I would turn the pseudo baro read back off (BARO - Max RPM for Read). Having this set up incorrectly will affect the VE Learns. Once the VE is close you can then enable the pseudo baro read and tune it in.
OK. I set it back to 0 rpm but by your note I assume u didn't like what u saw in the chart. don't have a clue yet how to tune it but I'll cross that bridge when the VE learns redone. I'm gonna try and do some tunign tomrorrow so i'll keep u posted.
Are there other settings I need to be turn off for the VE learns? The bin I started with has a ton of changes over stock so maybe i should set the majority of the items changed back ( except the ones I know or have been told to reset) till the I've learned some of the basics
Questions:
1. Should burst knock be active?
2. What is shift light all about?
I never dealt with burst knock nor shift light during tuning.
If you see knock in logs you need to determine if real or mechanical noise that sets off sensor. I am sure mine is mechanical as it appears for me under mild accelleration under 3000 pms when my beak TQ I believe is around 3600 rpms. If you see knock you can pull 2 deg timing in that cell it occurs and retry a log of event.
I would be converned more with getting BLM 124-132 area accross the board and then move on the general drivability keeping out of PE mode until you are comfortable with underlying tune.
Today I took the stock Camaro F bin which i had made some minor setting changes to (flags mostly) and ran the car for about 11 minutes.
O2 sensor ran about 950 mv unitll it went to closed loop (took 3 min 40 secs) then began what i think is the normal osciallations
SA is running the same as the otehr modified bin at 34 degrees at idle and knoch counts were around 804. Not sure why the SA is that high as i figure it should be around 20 or so. tjhoughts?
at 1000 RPM the int ran 118 to 120 and the blm around 118. Rpms between 1200 to 1600 ( i was trying a VE learn) the INT ran 107 or so and the BLM's 126.
I wouldn't enable burst knock. IT is designed for tip-in detonation which shouldn't be an issue on your vehicle.
The shift light is just that. At X RPM the ECM output is activated. Can connect a dash mounted light is desired. Note that which ECM pin is used is set in the calibration. Wiring hints on the site.
The 804 knock counts may have been from cranking. Common for the starter/flywheel engagement to cause knock counts. Can check the SPK display for more information. Same at key-off, with the knock module powering down immediately this too causes knock counts.
The 34* SA at start up may be OK, although as you say seems high. A cold engine start has both CTS comp and after-start (choke) SA added. Did you zero out any of the bias values (CTS or IAT/CTS)?
After the VE Learn did you flash the new BIN into the ECM? Should do that then try some short (5 - 10 minutes) drives in a non-traffic area. Of course do VE Learns and data log both while doing this.
I wouldn't enable burst knock. IT is designed for tip-in detonation which shouldn't be an issue on your vehicle.
The shift light is just that. At X RPM the ECM output is activated. Can connect a dash mounted light is desired. Note that which ECM pin is used is set in the calibration. Wiring hints on the site.
The 804 knock counts may have been from cranking. Common for the starter/flywheel engagement to cause knock counts. Can check the SPK display for more information. Same at key-off, with the knock module powering down immediately this too causes knock counts.
The 34* SA at start up may be OK, although as you say seems high. A cold engine start has both CTS comp and after-start (choke) SA added. Did you zero out any of the bias values (CTS or IAT/CTS)?
After the VE Learn did you flash the new BIN into the ECM? Should do that then try some short (5 - 10 minutes) drives in a non-traffic area. Of course do VE Learns and data log both while doing this.
RBob.
he question I have on the SA is it maxes at 34 and NEVER CHANGES UNLESS I am reading the WUD wrong. The SA bar should go up and down right??
Yes i flashed the new bin but now i got a SES light and a MALF 22. I have no TPS voltage as it's at zero and it sounds strange. hmmm... I flashed a old bin back in and no changes
The following changes were made to the stock Camaro F bin.
MAP - Transient Min MPH-INITIAL 255MPH- SET TO 55MPH
BARO - Max RPM for Read- SET BACK TO 0 UNTIL VE LEARNS ARE DONE THEN CHANGE BACK TO 0
BstNk - Enable burst knock- NOT SET TCC - Enable TCC calculations (0 = stick trans)-NOT SET HiGrH - 4th gear switch polarity (auto trans)-SET
IdlSa - Enable set SA when in idle mode, otherwise use the main SA table when in Idle-- SET LIMIT 20.04 DEGREES EGR - set to choose EGR function ( 0 or unset is N2O functionality)--NOT SET
SA - IAT/CTS Comp Bias SA-SET TO 9.84 DEGREES- SHOULD THIS BE 0?- NO IAT SENSOR IAT/CTS BLEND FILTER- SET AT 100% ACROSS THE BOARDS EGR- CTS THRESHOLD- SET AT 151 DEGREES C
HIGHWAY LEAN CRUISE --HiWy - Min MPH- SET AT 255 MPH
I'll try changing out the TPS switch but it was new...
Using a BIN from the CD is correct. As for the SA sitting at 34 and not moving, what else was changed in the SA tables? Other then setting the "SA - Initial SA" value to match the distributor setting, nothing else should be changed.
Note that the bar graph for SA should match the actual at-crank shaft timing. So you can put a timing light ont he engine and check the timing and it should match the WUD SA graph. If it doesn't then the distributor base and the SA - Initial SA doesn't match up.
Using a BIN from the CD is correct. As for the SA sitting at 34 and not moving, what else was changed in the SA tables? Other then setting the "SA - Initial SA" value to match the distributor setting, nothing else should be changed.
Note that the bar graph for SA should match the actual at-crank shaft timing. So you can put a timing light ont he engine and check the timing and it should match the WUD SA graph. If it doesn't then the distributor base and the SA - Initial SA doesn't match up.
RBob.
On my second run with the car i noticed it will go down to 27 degrees or so around 600rpm but once above about 800rpm it's full advance. WUD reads 6 degrees with key one which is what the distributor is set to. Nothing was changed in the SA tables. Interesting enough when i usef the modified bin that has radically different table it's pretty much the same thing. Can't say i here knock or that it runs bad but the exhaust sounds strange. Almost a tinny sound.
I did 2 ve learns but not sure i got that down yet. light run of about 7 miles total
1st run:
INT'S= 100 TO 120
BLM'S= 108
KNK= 427
HAD ASYNCH PW LIGHT ABOVE 3000RPM W/ 1MS PULSE
2ND RUN
INT'S= 110 TO 130
BLM'S= 108 to 111
KNK= 653
using aPW more this run
both runs flashing CCP light on occasion but that should be shut off as i don't have a canister
The big question i have is how do i tune the BLSM'S to 128?
Has the BPC vs VAC table been set? Should be at 90 in all entries. That will raise the BLMs. Then follow up with the VE Learns.
I would also disable async injection mode. Zero out the two entries for it:
INJ - ASync Transition Hi
INJ - ASync Transition Lo
For the high SA, my bet is that you zero'd a bias value. Don't do that unless you also zero the accompanying table. Put the bias value back to where it was.
If you didn't zero a bias then you added timing some place. If you can't find it then email the BIN to my dynamic efi address.
Has the BPC vs VAC table been set? Should be at 90 in all entries. That will raise the BLMs. Then follow up with the VE Learns.
I would also disable async injection mode. Zero out the two entries for it:
INJ - ASync Transition Hi
INJ - ASync Transition Lo
For the high SA, my bet is that you zero'd a bias value. Don't do that unless you also zero the accompanying table. Put the bias value back to where it was.
If you didn't zero a bias then you added timing some place. If you can't find it then email the BIN to my dynamic efi address.
RBob.
BPC vrs VAC was 87 but changed to 90
set async transition high and low to 0
SA--CTS/IAT value is 0 and the stock bin is 9.84. is that it?
SA--CTS/IAT value is 0 and the stock bin is 9.84. is that it?
Is that the bias value: "SA - IAT/CTS Comp Bias SA"
If so, both that table and the "SA - IAT/CTS Compensation" table need to match. If you zero'd the bias and left the compensation table at 9.84*, you added 9.84* of spark timing across the board.
With both the comp table and the bias both at 9.85*, there is no change to the SA.
Once the majority of the tune is completed the "SA - IAT/CTS Compensation" table can be used to add/subtract a small amount of timing for cold/hot conditions.
[quote=RBob;4217088]SA--CTS/IAT value is 0 and the stock bin is 9.84. is that it?
Is that the bias value: "SA - IAT/CTS Comp Bias SA"
If so, both that table and the "SA - IAT/CTS Compensation" table need to match. If you zero'd the bias and left the compensation table at 9.84*, you added 9.84* of spark timing across the board.
With both the comp table and the bias both at 9.85*, there is no change to the SA.
Once the majority of the tune is completed the "SA - IAT/CTS Compensation" table can be used to add/subtract a small amount of timing for cold/hot conditions.
RBob.[/quote
]Yes that was it and i reset it back to 9.84 and it made a world of difference. If I want/need to increase the max spark what's the correct way to do that?
Got the car back on the road after the " false alarm" ( thanks bob) and have done some VE learns. As expected the car is getting better with each run.
Still running VERY rich when u first start it up. As it warms up that gets better but the second it goes into closed loop the idle starts pulsating 2 to 3 hundred RPM. You can feel it at low RPM'S while running down the road as well and it does not go way.
If I want/need to increase the max spark what's the correct way to do that?
Can't get more then the distributor max plus the base timing.
the second it goes into closed loop the idle starts pulsating 2 to 3 hundred RPM
Most likely the proportional gains are too high.
In the Sticky's on the DIY_PROM board, Tuning Guide Book, Chap. 5, '8746/'8063/'7747 section, there is an article on spark logic and another on fueliing logic. They will explain a lot about how each area works.
Note that the locations of the parameters and the parameters themselves will not be an exact match for the EBL. But the explanations are.
If I want/need to increase the max spark what's the correct way to do that?
Can't get more then the distributor max plus the base timing.
the second it goes into closed loop the idle starts pulsating 2 to 3 hundred RPM
Most likely the proportional gains are too high.
In the Sticky's on the DIY_PROM board, Tuning Guide Book, Chap. 5, '8746/'8063/'7747 section, there is an article on spark logic and another on fueliing logic. They will explain a lot about how each area works.
Note that the locations of the parameters and the parameters themselves will not be an exact match for the EBL. But the explanations are.
RBob.
ThanKs bob. I've donE some reading in this post but i'll do some more and see what i can figure out.
ThanKs bob. I've donE some reading in this post but i'll do some more and see what i can figure out.
MOANOTLESS
Still plugging away but the more i think i know the more questions I have.
Still having excess running rich till she warms up but seems better. Changed the proportional gain at idle setting to zero and that seemed to help the pulsating but not eliminate it. Also changed the proportional gain multiplier to 0.39 but that did nothing so I'll change that back.
Played with the timing some but the stock F body bin of Rbobs really seems to work well so for now that will be left alone.
Did a couple more ve learns and did a little review of the data analysis page and all looks ok ( I guess) except for the sPW. Between 2400 and 3600 the PW's are running up to 11.9m.s. and i'm getting a reading on aePW. l'm below 4.5 aPW clear up to 5500 rpm once past 3600 . if she's starving for fuel i can't tell it as it pulls hard thru the range. What's the aePW about and why is the aPW so high in those rpms?
The aePW is acceleration enrichment. That and the previous four columns show the fuel contribution to AE (pump shot for carb folks).
Also, you mention aPW. Is this really aPW, or aePW?
The reason it is rich while warming up is that the ECM hasn't gone closed loop and corrected the fueling yet. As the VE Learns bring the VE table into line the rich while cold will subside.
The apw in the next to last and last sentence should be Spw. The concern is the Spw between 2400 and 3600 rpm. In a post responce to BMmonteSS back in 11-20-03 you indicated that 7.5ms is the most time before an injector is fired again at 4000rpm. I assume any time greater than that means it's static? at 6000rpm it only can be open for 4.25ms. Given the SPW times of 11.9MS it appears there is a problem but i want to make sure I'm getting it straight. If correct i doubt i can increse fp enough to compensate but agian the car pulls hard thru the band.
The current injector duty cycle is shown in the analysis display. There is a good possibility that the AE needs to be reduced. Which in turn will reduce the injector DC.
The reason I asked about the aPW/aePW label is that both are used. The aPW is next to the sPW with is the async & sync injector PW's. The aePW is the AE fuel contribution.
The current injector duty cycle is shown in the analysis display. There is a good possibility that the AE needs to be reduced. Which in turn will reduce the injector DC.
The reason I asked about the aPW/aePW label is that both are used. The aPW is next to the sPW with is the async & sync injector PW's. The aePW is the AE fuel contribution.
RBob.
They should be aePW sorry. No AsynchPW readings as all are zip. I checked the DC values and only had 2 that looked out of wac. One at 3225rpm which was 90% and 3275 rpm which was 94%. Had one at 84% and the rest was are all below 80% in a hard run to 5625 rpm. It confuses me why the PW would be higher in the mid rpm range and not at the upper range. At 5625rpm the sPW was 3.4ms. This pass was using a much more agressive SA table.
I backed the tables down to what i was running ( stock F bin on your disc) and that is where i got the really high sPW.One at 2575 rpm which read a sPW of 10.9ms, DC was 93%, and the aePW was 6.20ms. One at 2825rpm where the sPW was 11.9ms, DC was 112%, and aePW was 5.8ms. One at 2975rpm where the sPW was 10.2ms. DC was 101%, and the aePW was 4.14ms. The rest of the run is good with a 83% DC being as high as it went and mostly in the 70% range or below.
There are a number of reasons that the sPW is higher in the mid-range then at higher RPM.
The aePW is added to the normal fuel requirement and produces the sPW. So if you see 4.14 mSec in the ae PW, 4.14 mSec of the sPW is from AE. The remaining sPW is from the normal fueling PW and injector compensations.
Another reason for higher mid-range sPW's is that at higher RPM the VE drops off. So less fuel per cylinder filling is required. Overall more fuel may be getting delivered, as the injectors are firing more often.
Interesting. Obviously there are allot of things i thought i understood better but don't. Spark lead is one. I always thought that the more rpm the more spark advance was needed to allow for piston travel time. in essence you want the fuel burn to coinside with TDC. since the piston is moving upward allot faster at 6000rpm than 3000 rpm, hence one would start the spark sooner. doesn't appear to be the case at all though. Must be the less fuel thing??
BTW in reading all the past posts one tuning there were allot of guru's posting way back when. What happened??? did they all die???
So far its been Rbob and Ronny offering advice but no one else. believe me people i can use all the hep eye's can geet.
As the RPM increases the chamber turbulence also increases. This in turn causes a faster burn. For best power the peak chamber pressure should occur at 15* ADTC.
) I can't help but think this is the place to be!
