Ken73

Well, the time has come for me to let the cat out of the bag so to speak, and let everyone know what I've been working on. This post might be a bit long but I think it's worth a read if you're into tuning, and ESPECIALLY if you're *thinking* about getting into tuning!

As some of you know, I've been talking about making an emulator - possibly DIY. Well, I decided that a DIY version would be too big and bulky, and a friend of mine has been helping me out.

First, we looked at the Romulator - why not just get one of these? Well, you'll STILL need to buy a $180+ EPROM programmer for a permanent chip to put in it's place when you're done. This gets pretty expensive, obviously. If you're tuning a lot of cars, it can be handy and will probably pay off, but if you're just tuning one, it can be extremely expensive.

So, what we opted to do was put a flash chip onto a DIP adapter, and build the programmer right smack onto a tiny board that the DIP adapter is on. I tried doing it with discreet logic (ala DIY) with little success, so we wound up going with a programmable logic chip (very small) that contains all the logic we need, and nothing "extra" like we were going to have with the discreet setup.

We've managed to cram the whole assembly into a tiny package that will replace 2716-27512 - you pick the size you need when you purchase it, and it fits in your PROM's spot permanently. It's flash-based, so there's no need for battery backup. We also have the PRO Version out that IS tune on the fly! You can have someone else drive while you tune!

Here's a of picture of the Standard Prominator, and how it fits nicely *inside* a 1227747 ECM. (Yes, INSIDE!!!!)



The connector you see is for the parallel port - it's programmed with the parallel port, and it was designed to work with any parallel port, including non bi-directional ones. This frees up the serial port so you can run WinALDL or Craig Moates software and not have to switch back and forth. Just plug your two items in and go. Our software is Windows-based, so your laptop WILL need to be able to run Windows 98, at a minimum.

The Prominator eliminates the need for chips, programmer, and eraser. It is a PERMANENT installation in your ECM - it ELIMINATES the PROM. (Hence, the Prom-inator!)

The best part? We're looking at a price of $175 for the Standard version, and $275 for the Pro version. This is cheaper than most programmers, even. If you're looking at getting into tuning a single car, this is definitely what you want. You do NOT have to remove it to program it - the programmer is built in. Noise is not a factor because the chip/etc. is all right on the board itself. The flash ROM we used has a 100-year life, probably longer than most EPROMS, and definitely longer than most EEPROMs.

Now for the REAL killer, we're working with Mark Mansur on getting the Prominator supported in his wonderful TunerPro program. So you'll just use your favorite reader program (WinALDL or Craig Moates software) to see what your car is doing, then use TunerPro or TunerCat to make your changes and eventually you'll have a "program" button to zap the image right to your ECM. (That'll be up to Mark.)

So feel free to ask questions in this post.. hopefully I can answer them all!

NOTE: For ordering information go to page FOUR of this post!)

Ken

Mangus

When and where can we get one!?!? =) =)

mark

OMINOUS_87

Dude, the Prominator is way north of cool!!!

novass

iTrader: (1)

Awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Craig Moates

Sweet...

Good to see a grass-roots guy stepping up!

How do you hook it to the ECM? If you just put some legs on it, it will probably snap right into my adapter, which is pretty inexpensive ($35)...

Then again, maybe you can set it up so that it hooks in directly?

I like it that it's so small. What are you using for the parallel program handling? CPLD? I had some pretty good luck with some Xilinx units for stuff like this. About the only way to make good use of real estate.

Again, good to see some imagination hitting the streets!

-Craig

Ken73

That's exactly it.. here's a pic of the underside:



It just has legs that fit where the DIP-style PROM went!

Not sure what you mean about this? The idea is you solder it in (yes, solder - it's permanent!) where your PROM went. No need for chips or programmer anymore, it's all on this tiny little board.

See pic above - that's exactly what my friend and I decided to use. I was thinking of using discreet logic, but he convinced me (quite quickly, too!) to use a CPLD. You can see the advantage; it's tiny and makes the whole board tiny.

Thanks.. I do have some questions for you, too, Craig, but I'll take them offline as they don't directly pertain to the PROMinator..

Craig Moates

So if you put it in like a TBI car that normally would have taken a 2732A, you desolder your existing 'GM' socket and solder this in? Sweet.

Are those 0.1" square-post headers you're using? If so, you could go to some smaller-diameter stuff and then the user could solder in a 'regular' socket and 'snap' your device in place in the soldered socket. Then it would work directly with either 24-pin or 28-pin guys, since most of the 28-pin guys have socketed adapters or have socketed their Memcal carriers already. You may have already done this, just thinking out loud.

Then, *** forbid, if anyone was to sell their car (you should NOT sell your DIY-EFI car, that's a written rule I think), they could liberate the device for future use.

Just trying to think ahead. Looks like you've got the architecture to handle some cool options!

Ken73

Soon Mark, soon! You'll have one of the first ones so you can integrate the software into GMECM Edit.

Ken73

You got it! In fact, mine will be in an '8746..

Or solder in a low-profile ZIF socket, for that matter.

SATURN5

Real nice Ken. Will it fit in a P4 (730/749)case? Pics unfortunitly kill scale.. I can't tell if it will fit.

Anyways good to see new stuff available. Maybe work out a swap for a ECM bench?

cheers, Bob W

MrBill

Hi guys! First time poster on thirdgen. I don't actually own a 3rdgen anymore, but hopefully you guys will not hold that against me. :hail: I used to have an '82 Z28, now have an '84 Vette.

I'm Bill, the friend of Ken's that's been working on this with him. I just thought I'd go ahead and sign up and help Ken answer your questions.

Craig...you hit the nail on the head with the CPLD guess. We're using a Xilinx XC9572XL (3.3V w/5V tolerant I/O) CPLD in a 64 pin VQFP package (0.65mm pin pitch). You can see it on the bottom-side picture that Ken posted.

I also made up a drawing with some dimensions per Ken's request:



There's a larger version of that image here: http://misterbill.homeip.net/prominator/dimensions.gif

The "pink" pins there outline the EPROM header. The dashed outline inside of the pink pins represent the three different EPROM packages...32, 28, or 24 pin (yes this puppy can support up to a 4Mbit ROM!). If there's a dimension that anyone wants that I didn't get on there just let me know.

Bill

SATURN5

From the drawing, its .925" from pin 1 to the outside of the board.
Won't fit inside a P4 case without cutting the side off the case.

Still a very nice piece..

BW

Lionsden

Looks good to me!

JPrevost

Sweet!!!
No more programmer would be cool. I hate having an extra 9v power source for the pocket programmer. Not to mention the actual physical work of removing the chip, flashing it, reinstalling. It does get tedious to the point of no fun. I still would want realtime programming for the DIYer. I have to pay for chassis dyno work and it isn't cheap, even with connections.

jfreeman74

I am getting ready to start programming my own chips. I have an '870 ECM in my '85 Iroc. Will this work for me? If so, do you have any idea when they might be ready?

MrDude_1

couple questions:

one:

if i wanted to be able to tune my car with your stuff, i need the actual PROMinator itself and what else? starting from scratch

two

if i had a socket in there, and used the PROMinator until i got the tune i wanted, is there a way to "rip" the image off the PROMinator so that i can put it on a "regular" chip and stick that in there?


btw that is a good setup... when i was reading about the batt backup memory ones ( only a few weeks ago, since im still learning for my first efi swap) the first thought that came to my mind is why dont they use flash memory.. lol

it makes it alot more like the LT1 and LS1 programming...

MrBill

Hmmm, and that's where all the extra room is in the C3s. I haven't seen inside a P4, but sounds like it's either one or the other. Wouldn't be the first time I've hacked up an ECM chassis!

Anybody got a picture of an open P4?

We've already been discussing the next "version" so to speak. Real-time (flash) programming, real-time datalogging, and external program (flash) ROM in-a-box. That's quite a while away, if it happens at all, and of course will be considerably more expensive.

Yeah I think it should fit just fine. I've got a 7302 sitting here, and from what I can tell yours uses the same board set. It'll hang over the micro, but it looks like it should fit inside ok.

As for ETA...I'm in the process of debugging the first fabricated prototype right now, *hopefully* that will be working tomorrow. Once we're happy with it a production run will take about 4 weeks (to keep PCB prices down).

Well, the whole idea is so that you don't have to mess around with EPROMS...just "download" your BIN image and be done with it. But...if you wanted to have a socket and "removable" PROMinator I suppose you could. The only issue you may have is with height, it might not fit under the ECM housing with the added height of a socket.

There should be no need to "rip" the image from the ROM...you have to start with a BIN file anyway, so you'd just be reading what you just wrote. Unless I'm missing something here?


I'm assuming that they didn't use flash ROM so as to have the "realtime" ability, which is pretty easy to do with an off-the-shelf dual-port RAM. Since there's no such thing as a dual-port flash ROM (that I'm aware of anyway), it gets MUCH more complicated to implement a dynamic non-volatile system, but by no means impossible.

JP84Z430HP

Sorry to repeat a question, but what all will be included for the approx $150 cost? Will there be the parrallel cable, and programming software? I am about to get into programming a '730 and really need to know about this! It sounds like exactly what I need!

Thanks for your time!

SATURN5

Another problem is the memcal also has the ESC circuit alongside the Eprom.

Here is a pic of a P4 motherboard.

Ken73

Yes, it'll come with some basic programming software, and Mark is going to incorporate the software into GMECM Edit as well. So you'll have two options on programming. It will come with the parallel cable and probably some sort of power cord for you to hook up (or plug into a cigarette lighter.)

The only thing you'll need in addition is some reader software (Craig Moates or WinALDL, depending on the ECM you have - sounds like Craig Moates) and a tuner program (Tunercat or GMECM Edit.) Tunercat is the only commercial package you'd have to pay for, if you decided to use it. Otherwise the rest of the software is free!

Grumpy

Will GMEPRO work with it?.
Is it something that just uses a new .bin file?.
Pardon the high tech language.
ie so any editor will work with it, since your just loading the whole .bin file?.

Ken73

What's GMEPRO?

The PROMinator will come with very basic software to load a .bin file to it (it verifies that it loaded correctly, also.)

Grumpy

Kelly's editing software.
He never advertised much.

Just that some of what I run, doesn't read right in various editors.
<G>

Craig Moates

Bruce, are you saying you've gone and moved stuff around?!? Shame...

Sounds like whatever editor you use, this thing will act just like an in-situ PocketProgrammer/FlashChip combo. Pretty sweet for the price!

jfreeman74

I have a feeling he's not going to be able to make them fast enough.

Grumpy

Have had some help from my friends, and been trying some wild and crazy stuff.

Most often anymore, I assemble source code, rather then play with editors. But, have been using R_T for being able to close in on roughing out a chip.

Who'da ever thought there'd be even a choice in good emulators. This is just so neat.

SATURN5

I hope you got access to a pick and place machine, and a wave solder machine/ or oven. I'd hate to have to hand solder each one..

Looking forward to one..

BW

Ken73

That's precisely it, Craig. After I burned a few chips, I QUICKLY got tired of messing with it. I've got a PB-10 from Needham's, so I had to come back to the house to burn a chip. I don't know how Bruce did it before!!!

Now if only you, Jonas, and Mark could get together and make the ultimate tuning "Suite" with emulator support for the PROMinator and the Romulator..

Craig Moates

Mmmm. Yeaaahhhh.... That would be Greeaaaat....

Mangus

;-)

MrDude_1

ok... you already said somthing about you working on somthing having to do with a large cat for the name....

spill the beans... whatchoo got?!

TRAXION

Most here are running either the 165 or the 730. It was already mentioned but that design will not fit into either of those ECM cases. The 730 with the MemCal attached ESC module creates another design problem.

Overall - I think this is a great idea. I really like it because you never need to carry around a programmer and worry about it's power source, etc. Very cool. No more carry chips either. Very nice. Now if it would just fit into a 730

Tim

JP84Z430HP

It looks to me that with one of craig's adapters it might fit in a 730. May have to cut a bit on the top of the ECM case though. I can't wait to get going with one! I'm sure that someone will have a solution for it within a short period of time. I know I'll be getting one to use in a 730, and I'll worry about the fit later!

Craig Moates

You know, if it doesn't hurt anything to have the Prominator sticking up out of the case just a little bit, what you could do is stack a couple regular 28-pin DIP sockets on a Memcal/Adapter and then just snap the Prominator into that. It would sit up just above the metal ECM case, but it would clear it in doing so. Might be a pretty easy technique. Just need to make sure it doesn't get bumped & what-not.

Then just run the LPT cable(?) to a DB25 quick disconnect under the dash...

Craig Moates

Bwahaha... I guess I was getting off topic... Referring to my day-job. Working on the biggest Cats in the world. Catalytic Cracking units that is. We can push almost 250,000 barrels/day of crude through these babies and turn it into high-octane gasoline. Woo-hoo!

At work, everyone calls them 'The Big Cats'. They're big & mean... over 20 stories tall, and if they decide to turn on you, it's all over!

Off topic... Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

BlackBeast'88

Count me in!! Sounds like a great idea. When are you starting to take orders?

BlackBeast'88

Second thought until there is a solution with the 165 ECM I'll have to hold off. Please let me know when there is a solution with this ECM as I am ready to order this.

Thanks for pointing this out again Tim.

Jeff

SATURN5

Hehe... I've drawn up an adapter board for P4's last night.

Will need to trim the lid, and raise it .5 by redrilling the screw holes.. It should fit under the lid then, with just the cable coming out.

I can hardly wait for one...

BW

fakezcar

WOW!!! that's all I can say. But if I'm reading this correctly, you've basically just turned our lowly ECM's into DFI computers. I want one. The only thing I wish is that someone would make this stuff for Macs. I have access to a Mac Laptop but have been unable to find a Windows based one for cheap. Can't wait until these are produced. I'll just have t have my EET bddy solder it in for me. I don't care if I have to fabricate a new cover for my 7730 to get it to work. Unless you guys come up with a way to get it to plug into Craigs ZIF adapter. That would be ultimate in tuning accessories. Keep up the good work guys!!

Chris

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Stupid question, but will it work with Tunercat and Datamaster?

Ken73

Not a stupid question at all - this will work fine with ANY tuning program you have. All the PROMinator does, is eliminate the hassle of removing the chip, putting it in a programmer, and replacing the chip - along with an erase cycle in there somewhere if it's an EPROM. No need to buy a programmer, eraser, nor chips anymore - this replaces all of that.

There will be software included that will upload a BIN file to the PROMinator, just like you'd burn a chip - except the chip is already in the ECM, you don't have to pull it out anymore.

Ken73

Spoke with Craig on the phone this evening - we talked about his adapter, and possibly making custom adapters for the PROMinator - it would just come with one already on it, so it wouldn't have to be extra tall (and would possibly fit under the stock case, even.) Then it'd just be a matter of finding where to put the cable coming out.

JP84Z430HP

That would be great! Go Craig, go! Hehehe

Are you still in need of pics/dimensions of a 730? Or is that something that Craig is on himself?

If you need dims, let me know, I can sketch it out in autocad.

89 Iroc Z

Hey Ken73,
I love the Idea, now I won’t have to leave my ECM on the floor all the time, just run a cable from under the dash. Can’t wait until you come out with the setup for the 730. One thing that would be cool is if you could put the dip switches on a cable so people wouldn’t have to pull out there ECM every time they want to switch memory locations.

Ken73

I'd like some good solid pictures of a '7730 and a '7165 if anyone has some, yes. Leave the case on, take the case off, take some side picture of it so I can see heights, also. I don't necessarily need dimensions, I can kinda figure it out from the pictures.

I'm probably going to try to hit up a junkyard and find a couple of P4's to play with or at least look at, but it'll be several days before I get to go as I've got hurricane Claudette bearing down on me today.

Ken73

That's a possibility, but I'd be awful concerned about EMI/RFI interfering, since those are direct connections to the address lines.

Now, having said that - IMO it was kinda pointless to have the DIP switches but we put them on there anyway in case anyone wanted that feature. Keep in mind if you don't like the BIN you're using, you can just pull over and reprogram it - the BIN switching feature would be useful if you wanted to have a couple of BIN's for say - one for valet mode, one for "let the kid borrow the car mode," track mode, etc.

TRAXION

If you can get this to fit in a P4 then I'd definitely buy one ... or two. It would be way cool to ...

- put the ECM back where it belongs under the dash
- never deal with chips again
- never deal with a programmer again

... possibly a chance here at real time programming in the future? That would seal the deal and make this device the absolute 100% ultimate thing in PROM programming!

Tim

SmokinZ28

Dude, I want one. If noone has posted it by the time I get home I'll post pics of both the 7165 and 7730 for ya

JP84Z430HP

Grabbing the camera, back in a few with 7730 pics!

JPrevost

This is so cool. Please, if I'm not already on, put me on the list for an order!