Firebird and Camaro PROMinator - DIY PROM - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

Ken73 · 07-11-2003, 11:16 PM

Well, the time has come for me to let the cat out of the bag so to speak, and let everyone know what I've been working on. This post might be a bit long but I think it's worth a read if you're into tuning, and ESPECIALLY if you're *thinking* about getting into tuning!

As some of you know, I've been talking about making an emulator - possibly DIY. Well, I decided that a DIY version would be too big and bulky, and a friend of mine has been helping me out.

First, we looked at the Romulator - why not just get one of these? Well, you'll STILL need to buy a $180+ EPROM programmer for a permanent chip to put in it's place when you're done. This gets pretty expensive, obviously. If you're tuning a lot of cars, it can be handy and will probably pay off, but if you're just tuning one, it can be extremely expensive.

So, what we opted to do was put a flash chip onto a DIP adapter, and build the programmer right smack onto a tiny board that the DIP adapter is on. I tried doing it with discreet logic (ala DIY) with little success, so we wound up going with a programmable logic chip (very small) that contains all the logic we need, and nothing "extra" like we were going to have with the discreet setup.

We've managed to cram the whole assembly into a tiny package that will replace 2716-27512 - you pick the size you need when you purchase it, and it fits in your PROM's spot permanently. It's flash-based, so there's no need for battery backup. We also have the PRO Version out that IS tune on the fly! You can have someone else drive while you tune!

Here's a of picture of the Standard Prominator, and how it fits nicely *inside* a 1227747 ECM. (Yes, INSIDE!!!!)

The connector you see is for the parallel port - it's programmed with the parallel port, and it was designed to work with any parallel port, including non bi-directional ones. This frees up the serial port so you can run WinALDL or Craig Moates software and not have to switch back and forth. Just plug your two items in and go. Our software is Windows-based, so your laptop WILL need to be able to run Windows 98, at a minimum.

The Prominator eliminates the need for chips, programmer, and eraser. It is a PERMANENT installation in your ECM - it ELIMINATES the PROM. (Hence, the Prom-inator!)

The best part? We're looking at a price of $175 for the Standard version, and $275 for the Pro version. This is cheaper than most programmers, even. If you're looking at getting into tuning a single car, this is definitely what you want. You do NOT have to remove it to program it - the programmer is built in. Noise is not a factor because the chip/etc. is all right on the board itself. The flash ROM we used has a 100-year life, probably longer than most EPROMS, and definitely longer than most EEPROMs.

Now for the REAL killer, we're working with Mark Mansur on getting the Prominator supported in his wonderful TunerPro program. So you'll just use your favorite reader program (WinALDL or Craig Moates software) to see what your car is doing, then use TunerPro or TunerCat to make your changes and eventually you'll have a "program" button to zap the image right to your ECM. (That'll be up to Mark.)

So feel free to ask questions in this post.. hopefully I can answer them all!

NOTE: For ordering information go to page FOUR (Firebird and Camaro PROMinator) of this post!)

Ken

Mangus · 07-12-2003, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken73

So feel free to ask questions in this post.. hopefully I can answer them all!

Ken

When and where can we get one!?!? =) =)

mark

OMINOUS_87 · 07-12-2003, 01:15 AM

Dude, the Prominator is way north of cool!!!

novass · 07-12-2003, 07:45 AM

Awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Craig Moates · 07-12-2003, 08:49 AM

Sweet...

Good to see a grass-roots guy stepping up!

How do you hook it to the ECM? If you just put some legs on it, it will probably snap right into my adapter, which is pretty inexpensive ($35)...

Then again, maybe you can set it up so that it hooks in directly?

I like it that it's so small. What are you using for the parallel program handling? CPLD? I had some pretty good luck with some Xilinx units for stuff like this. About the only way to make good use of real estate.

Again, good to see some imagination hitting the streets!

-Craig

Ken73 · 07-12-2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craig Moates
Sweet...

Good to see a grass-roots guy stepping up!

How do you hook it to the ECM? If you just put some legs on it, it will probably snap right into my adapter, which is pretty inexpensive ($35)...

That's exactly it.. here's a pic of the underside:

It just has legs that fit where the DIP-style PROM went!

Quote:

Then again, maybe you can set it up so that it hooks in directly?

Not sure what you mean about this? The idea is you solder it in (yes, solder - it's permanent!) where your PROM went. No need for chips or programmer anymore, it's all on this tiny little board.

Quote:

I like it that it's so small. What are you using for the parallel program handling? CPLD? I had some pretty good luck with some Xilinx units for stuff like this. About the only way to make good use of real estate.

See pic above - that's exactly what my friend and I decided to use.

I was thinking of using discreet logic, but he convinced me (quite quickly, too!) to use a CPLD. You can see the advantage; it's tiny and makes the whole board tiny.

Quote:

Again, good to see some imagination hitting the streets!

-Craig

Thanks..

I do have some questions for you, too, Craig, but I'll take them offline as they don't directly pertain to the PROMinator..

Craig Moates · 07-12-2003, 09:18 AM

So if you put it in like a TBI car that normally would have taken a 2732A, you desolder your existing 'GM' socket and solder this in? Sweet.

Are those 0.1" square-post headers you're using? If so, you could go to some smaller-diameter stuff and then the user could solder in a 'regular' socket and 'snap' your device in place in the soldered socket. Then it would work directly with either 24-pin or 28-pin guys, since most of the 28-pin guys have socketed adapters or have socketed their Memcal carriers already. You may have already done this, just thinking out loud.

Then, *** forbid, if anyone was to sell their car (you should NOT sell your DIY-EFI car, that's a written rule I think), they could liberate the device for future use.

Just trying to think ahead. Looks like you've got the architecture to handle some cool options!

Ken73 · 07-12-2003, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mangus
When and where can we get one!?!? =) =)

mark

Soon Mark, soon! You'll have one of the first ones so you can integrate the software into GMECM Edit.

Ken73 · 07-12-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craig Moates
So if you put it in like a TBI car that normally would have taken a 2732A, you desolder your existing 'GM' socket and solder this in? Sweet.

You got it! In fact, mine will be in an '8746..

Quote:

Are those 0.1" square-post headers you're using? If so, you could go to some smaller-diameter stuff and then the user could solder in a 'regular' socket and 'snap' your device in place in the soldered socket. Then it would work directly with either 24-pin or 28-pin guys, since most of the 28-pin guys have socketed adapters or have socketed their Memcal carriers already. You may have already done this, just thinking out loud.

Then, *** forbid, if anyone was to sell their car (you should NOT sell your DIY-EFI car, that's a written rule I think), they could liberate the device for future use.

Just trying to think ahead. Looks like you've got the architecture to handle some cool options!

Or solder in a low-profile ZIF socket, for that matter.

SATURN5 · 07-12-2003, 09:54 AM

Real nice Ken. Will it fit in a P4 (730/749)case? Pics unfortunitly kill scale.. I can't tell if it will fit.

Anyways good to see new stuff available. Maybe work out a swap for a ECM bench?

cheers, Bob W

MrBill · 07-12-2003, 04:24 PM

Hi guys! First time poster on thirdgen. I don't actually own a 3rdgen anymore, but hopefully you guys will not hold that against me. :hail: I used to have an '82 Z28, now have an '84 Vette.

I'm Bill, the friend of Ken's that's been working on this with him. I just thought I'd go ahead and sign up and help Ken answer your questions.

Craig...you hit the nail on the head with the CPLD guess. We're using a Xilinx XC9572XL (3.3V w/5V tolerant I/O) CPLD in a 64 pin VQFP package (0.65mm pin pitch). You can see it on the bottom-side picture that Ken posted.

I also made up a drawing with some dimensions per Ken's request:

There's a larger version of that image here: http://misterbill.homeip.net/prominator/dimensions.gif

The "pink" pins there outline the EPROM header. The dashed outline inside of the pink pins represent the three different EPROM packages...32, 28, or 24 pin (yes this puppy can support up to a 4Mbit ROM!). If there's a dimension that anyone wants that I didn't get on there just let me know.

Bill

SATURN5 · 07-12-2003, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBill
Hi guys! First time poster on thirdgen. I don't actually own a 3rdgen anymore, but hopefully you guys will not hold that against me. :hail: I used to have an '82 Z28, now have an '84 Vette.

I'm Bill, the friend of Ken's that's been working on this with him. I just thought I'd go ahead and sign up and help Ken answer your questions.

Craig...you hit the nail on the head with the CPLD guess. We're using a Xilinx XC9572XL (3.3V w/5V tolerant I/O) CPLD in a 64 pin VQFP package (0.65mm pin pitch). You can see it on the bottom-side picture that Ken posted.

I also made up a drawing with some dimensions per Ken's request:

There's a larger version of that image here: http://misterbill.homeip.net/prominator/dimensions.gif

The "pink" pins there outline the EPROM header. The dashed outline inside of the pink pins represent the three different EPROM packages...32, 28, or 24 pin (yes this puppy can support up to a 4Mbit ROM!). If there's a dimension that anyone wants that I didn't get on there just let me know.

Bill

From the drawing, its .925" from pin 1 to the outside of the board.
Won't fit inside a P4 case without cutting the side off the case.

Still a very nice piece..

BW

Lionsden · 07-12-2003, 06:57 PM

Looks good to me!

JPrevost · 07-12-2003, 09:27 PM

Sweet!!!
No more programmer would be cool. I hate having an extra 9v power source for the pocket programmer. Not to mention the actual physical work of removing the chip, flashing it, reinstalling. It does get tedious to the point of no fun. I still would want realtime programming for the DIYer. I have to pay for chassis dyno work and it isn't cheap, even with connections.

jfreeman74 · 07-12-2003, 10:03 PM

I am getting ready to start programming my own chips. I have an '870 ECM in my '85 Iroc. Will this work for me? If so, do you have any idea when they might be ready?

MrDude_1 · 07-12-2003, 10:37 PM

couple questions:

one:

if i wanted to be able to tune my car with your stuff, i need the actual PROMinator itself and what else? starting from scratch

two

if i had a socket in there, and used the PROMinator until i got the tune i wanted, is there a way to "rip" the image off the PROMinator so that i can put it on a "regular" chip and stick that in there?

btw that is a good setup... when i was reading about the batt backup memory ones ( only a few weeks ago, since im still learning for my first efi swap) the first thought that came to my mind is why dont they use flash memory.. lol

it makes it alot more like the LT1 and LS1 programming...

MrBill · 07-13-2003, 12:00 AM

Quote:

From the drawing, its .925" from pin 1 to the outside of the board.
Won't fit inside a P4 case without cutting the side off the case.

Hmmm, and that's where all the extra room is in the C3s. I haven't seen inside a P4, but sounds like it's either one or the other. Wouldn't be the first time I've hacked up an ECM chassis!

Anybody got a picture of an open P4?

Quote:

I still would want realtime programming for the DIYer. I have to pay for chassis dyno work and it isn't cheap, even with connections.

We've already been discussing the next "version" so to speak. Real-time (flash) programming, real-time datalogging, and external program (flash) ROM in-a-box. That's quite a while away, if it happens at all, and of course will be considerably more expensive.

Quote:

I have an '870 ECM in my '85 Iroc. Will this work for me? If so, do you have any idea when they might be ready?

Yeah I think it should fit just fine. I've got a 7302 sitting here, and from what I can tell yours uses the same board set. It'll hang over the micro, but it looks like it should fit inside ok.

As for ETA...I'm in the process of debugging the first fabricated prototype right now, *hopefully* that will be working tomorrow. Once we're happy with it a production run will take about 4 weeks (to keep PCB prices down).

Quote:

if i had a socket in there, and used the PROMinator until i got the tune i wanted, is there a way to "rip" the image off the PROMinator so that i can put it on a "regular" chip and stick that in there?

Well, the whole idea is so that you don't have to mess around with EPROMS...just "download" your BIN image and be done with it. But...if you wanted to have a socket and "removable" PROMinator I suppose you could. The only issue you may have is with height, it might not fit under the ECM housing with the added height of a socket.

There should be no need to "rip" the image from the ROM...you have to start with a BIN file anyway, so you'd just be reading what you just wrote. Unless I'm missing something here?

Quote:

when i was reading about the batt backup memory ones ( only a few weeks ago, since im still learning for my first efi swap) the first thought that came to my mind is why dont they use flash memory..

I'm assuming that they didn't use flash ROM so as to have the "realtime" ability, which is pretty easy to do with an off-the-shelf dual-port RAM. Since there's no such thing as a dual-port flash ROM (that I'm aware of anyway), it gets MUCH more complicated to implement a dynamic non-volatile system, but by no means impossible.

JP84Z430HP · 07-13-2003, 12:25 AM

Sorry to repeat a question, but what all will be included for the approx $150 cost? Will there be the parrallel cable, and programming software? I am about to get into programming a '730 and really need to know about this! It sounds like exactly what I need!

Thanks for your time!

SATURN5 · 07-13-2003, 01:12 AM

Another problem is the memcal also has the ESC circuit alongside the Eprom.

Here is a pic of a P4 motherboard.

Ken73 · 07-13-2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JP84Z430HP
Sorry to repeat a question, but what all will be included for the approx $150 cost? Will there be the parrallel cable, and programming software? I am about to get into programming a '730 and really need to know about this! It sounds like exactly what I need!

Thanks for your time!

Yes, it'll come with some basic programming software, and Mark is going to incorporate the software into GMECM Edit as well. So you'll have two options on programming. It will come with the parallel cable and probably some sort of power cord for you to hook up (or plug into a cigarette lighter.)

The only thing you'll need in addition is some reader software (Craig Moates or WinALDL, depending on the ECM you have - sounds like Craig Moates) and a tuner program (Tunercat or GMECM Edit.) Tunercat is the only commercial package you'd have to pay for, if you decided to use it. Otherwise the rest of the software is free!

Grumpy · 07-13-2003, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken73
Yes, it'll come with some basic programming software, and Mark is going to incorporate the software into GMECM Edit as well. So you'll have two options on programming. It will come with the parallel cable and probably some sort of power cord for you to hook up (or plug into a cigarette lighter.)

The only thing you'll need in addition is some reader software (Craig Moates or WinALDL, depending on the ECM you have - sounds like Craig Moates) and a tuner program (Tunercat or GMECM Edit.) Tunercat is the only commercial package you'd have to pay for, if you decided to use it. Otherwise the rest of the software is free!

Will GMEPRO work with it?.
Is it something that just uses a new .bin file?.
Pardon the high tech language.
ie so any editor will work with it, since your just loading the whole .bin file?.

Ken73 · 07-13-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy
Will GMEPRO work with it?.
Is it something that just uses a new .bin file?.
Pardon the high tech language.
ie so any editor will work with it, since your just loading the whole .bin file?.

What's GMEPRO?

The PROMinator will come with very basic software to load a .bin file to it (it verifies that it loaded correctly, also.)

Grumpy · 07-13-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken73
What's GMEPRO?

The PROMinator will come with very basic software to load a .bin file to it (it verifies that it loaded correctly, also.)

Kelly's editing software.
He never advertised much.

Just that some of what I run, doesn't read right in various editors.
<G>

Craig Moates · 07-13-2003, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy
Kelly's editing software.
He never advertised much.

Just that some of what I run, doesn't read right in various editors.
<G>

Bruce, are you saying you've gone and moved stuff around?!? Shame...

Sounds like whatever editor you use, this thing will act just like an in-situ PocketProgrammer/FlashChip combo. Pretty sweet for the price!

jfreeman74 · 07-13-2003, 07:22 PM

I have a feeling he's not going to be able to make them fast enough.