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can anyone point me in the direction to find a 5.7L vortec spark table? I have the vortec heads and a TBI with 747 ecm and would like to use a stock vortec table as a guide to adjust my timing tables.
u sure? I was under the impression in the 165 ECU that you set the base timing to x degrees, tell the computer it is x degrees and the Electronic Spark Control adds base timing + main spark + PE spark....
Originally posted by poncho@home u sure? I was under the impression in the 165 ECU that you set the base timing to x degrees, tell the computer it is x degrees and the Electronic Spark Control adds base timing + main spark + PE spark....
Yep, I'm sure. The ECM adds up the main spark and the PE spark and subtracts out the base timing.
The distributor then adds the base timing back in by virtue of it's physical location relative to TDC.
Originally posted by poncho@home so then when a Spark Advance table entry is 24 + 6 PE SA = 30 as long as the base timing is set to the same thing in the ECU?
ok...so now what's the PE Spark on this head set to? And any other spark adder as well.
I still have a little knock between 3200-5000 rpm, so I am pulling back the timing 2 degrees at a time...it seems to be liking it, as every run is faster then the previous with the more timing.
Right now it's at 30-32 total in that RPM range under WOT. I think in the end it will be happy with 28-29 total for WOT.
Just want to see what the total timing for the lt1 iron head is.
Originally posted by Nebu i thought WOT is around 30 and idle 100? i have set my most spark advance around 45kpa in the upper rpm range.
or do i understand something wrong?
im using tunerpro for that.
Nebu.
You're from Germany, you should know the metric system better than us . 100 Kpa is kilopascal where atmosphere is just over 100 Kpa, I believe 101.4 and 1 bar is 104 or something like that. Anyways, lower Kpa = vacuum so idle is usually in the 30 to 50 range while cruising is in the 40-70 (80 if your car is a dog), and decel is in the 20's. These are just relative numbers so don't take them as fact, just concept.
Looks normal to me. Less timing at WOT is completely normal. That's why they call "vacuum advance" vacuum advance .
Typical small block chevy WOT timing with iron heads is 30 to 34, aluminum heads are usually in the 32-38 range without detonation. There are a lot of good beginners books out there but read the sticky threads on this forum should answer most of your questions.
Originally posted by Nebu yes but i was confused because you said around 30kpa is idle and in tunerpro idle is 100kpa.
Nebu.
Tunerpro is wrong then. If you're car is idling at atmosphere then your MAP sensor is placed before the butterfly's OR you've got an IR intake system OR your supercharger(s) bypass valve is too small because you put 2 huge blowers on a small engine .
bump:: Has anyone come up with the vortec 5.7 SA table, or VE table. I've searched all over the internet and personally haven't had any luck. I was going to use this LT1 table, wondering if anybody has tried it out yet on there 350,tbi,7747,vortec head engine yet??
Edgesz28 started with a vortec truck table in his 8D suburban project.
He had problems with the aujp when he started.
IIRC, the $OD is a vortec mask. So get an ecu and a bin and pull the SA table.
The vortec VE table won't work since it is a true SD calc I think.
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Originally posted by Z69 Edgesz28 started with a vortec truck table in his 8D suburban project.
He had problems with the aujp when he started.
IIRC, the $OD is a vortec mask. So get an ecu and a bin and pull the SA table.
The vortec VE table won't work since it is a true SD calc I think.
This is the spark table that I pulled from my 94' TBI Suburban with 4L60E using TunerPro and the 0D v1_02.ecu. I do not understand why 100 kpa is so high, but that is what I read from the BJLH bin.
For the TPI in the 94' Suburban, I had to lower the spark table even more than the stock TBI.
Z69, the "vortec" heads came out in 96, $0D was used up until 95 so there are no $0D vortec bins out there.
liquid, the Lt1 iron head timing tables are a great starting point. With a lighter car you'll be adding more timing in but for starters this table works really well.
The only time it doesn't run well is if you're running the stock coolant table advance and PE advance tables. My recommendation to you is to zero out the coolant SA table in the area that is your typical engine temp and then at the really hot temps, take out about 4-6 degrees (so it'll be a negative), then at cold temps add about 4-6 degrees and have that tapper out to 0 by 130 degerees engine temp.
Then, for the PE spark advance, zero out that whole table and try the bin out.
EdgesZ28, that isn't a stock SA table!!! Please remove that attachment so people don't get screwed up thinking it is correct. Look at how much spark is in the 100kpa area and then look at it in the 95kpa, that data is bad.
JP, thanx, I'll try that. Edge, thank you for posting your SA table. I'm running a 350 w/vortec heads, comp FI cam, and a 7747 ecm. I've been playing with a 454 bin and it seems to run a little better. There isn't alot of timing at the higher kpa, but alot down low. So I figured the vortecs like less timing. I'll play with the lt1 table I seen posted and go from there.
Thanx.
Originally posted by JPrevost EdgesZ28, that isn't a stock SA table!!! Please remove that attachment so people don't get screwed up thinking it is correct. Look at how much spark is in the 100kpa area and then look at it in the 95kpa, that data is bad.
Is what you posted a stock BJLH spark table? I cannot imagine that the bin I read was anything but stock. If you are 100% sure that it is wrong I will remove the table. Please advise. Ed
Originally posted by EdgesZ28 Is what you posted a stock BJLH spark table? I cannot imagine that the bin I read was anything but stock. If you are 100% sure that it is wrong I will remove the table. Please advise. Ed
Ahh.. start imagining . I'm 200% sure that it is wrong so please remove.
What I posted IS the stocker.
Originally posted by JPrevost Z69, the "vortec" heads came out in 96, $0D was used up until 95 so there are no $0D vortec bins out there.
.
I have run across two 1996 chevy vans with a vortec TBI 350 in them. I couldn't tell you how many are out there. Couldn't tell you if they were factory, but I have every belief they are. Nobody in their right mind does a head swap on a G-series with the engine in the van. These looked to be just stock work vans. They were the old body style ones that were made in 1996 alongside with the newer Express style.
Like the GMPP intake they both had an external EGR hookup, but unlike the GMPP part, the pipe ran from the driverside manifold to the passenger side of the engine under the distributer, to the EGR valve area. Next time I run across one I will try to remeber to take a picture.
JP- what is the bias on that table? 9.8* like TBI? A max of 30* advance is nothing. There is without a doubt more timing hiding in the calibration than that table is showing, be it PE, Highway, Bias, Etc.
Fast, the bias in 9.8 but it's included in the table so what you see is what you get. The PE SA is mostly 2 degrees with only 4 added around 4400rpm. The coolant SA table is 0 at the engines normal operating range.
So it really is only getting 18.5-21.5 degrees of total SA at WOT. The rev limiter stock is set to 4800rpm and resume is at 4100rpm. Adding timing has limits. In the summer with high IATs I was only able to add 2 degrees more SA, in the cooler weather 6 degrees all on 87 octane. The suburban is heavy, very heavy and the cam and heads ARE CRAP . The exhaust, intake, and clutch fan aren't helping things.
About 4 degrees of SA is added with EGR during steady state cruising below 40mph as vacuum decreases so does the EGR SA.
If you find a 96 with vortec heads and the $0D be sure to take pictures, write down the memcal part number, bcc, and vin. I'd like to see what they did. I have a sneaking feeling that you're right. Why else would GM have a vortec TBI intake manifold that has EGR if they weren't going to use it in ANYTHING
Originally posted by JPrevost .....If you find a 96 with vortec heads and the $0D be sure to take pictures, write down the memcal part number, bcc, and vin. I'd like to see what they did. I have a sneaking feeling that you're right. Why else would GM have a vortec TBI intake manifold that has EGR if they weren't going to use it in ANYTHING
I'd be interested in that also. I have seen quite a few TBU trucks, but none like that.
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Originally posted by JPrevost
If you find a 96 with vortec heads and the $0D be sure to take pictures, write down the memcal part number, bcc, and vin. I'd like to see what they did. I have a sneaking feeling that you're right. Why else would GM have a vortec TBI intake manifold that has EGR if they weren't going to use it in ANYTHING
Here is the information I have on the one that I worked on, since it intrigued me. I did valve cover gaskets, intake gaskets, and a complete tune-up to it. It was in a 1996 G30HD with over 8,500 GVW. The heads were 10239906 or the 906 vortecs. The block was casting # 10243880 presumably 4 bolt main. The injectors were 17112742(Looked like PNK/GRN). My guess is they are bigger than the typical 350 ones.
The specs that I found so far for it are TFI(Throttle Body Fuel Injected) 235 HP @ 4,400 and 335 ft/lbs @ 2,600 and 9.4:1 compression.
My guess is the GMPP intake is actually a re-cast 1996 van intake.
Notice the one bolt-hole in front of the TBI to the driverside. That is where the compressor brace bar bolts on a G-series.
The bolt-hole just in front of the thermostat holds the transmission dipstick tube.
OK, now I'm thoroughly confused. I've read through this thread and others, read the spark timing document on diy-efi, plugged the LT1 map above into my 1227747 (tweaked slightly), changed the initial advance to 10 degrees, got out the timing light, and cranked the dizzy to 10 degrees with the tan lead unplugged, no problem. Tightened everything down, doublechecked with the timing light that nothing had moved, stopped the engine, plugged the lead back in, and fired it up for real on the new spark map.
Then I get out the timing light and hit the balancer and I have 40 degrees of advance??!!!!??? The other wierd thing is that the motor is running like a top and not hitting the knock sensor. Naturally, I didn't let it run long like this. Idle was at about 45-50 kpa, 800rpm, 102F CT when I shut it off.
Am I missing something? Here's the current relevant maps: (grr.. it didn't upload the attachment.. let me host it.)
EDIT: Nevermind. I burned a new chip with the startup spark table zeroed out, and now it's where it's supposed to be. Don't know why a table adding 5-8 degrees that decays was holding the timing at 40 degrees, but there you go. Wierd. I even checked the "bad" chip against the bin to make sure I didn't accidently switch it out, and everything checked out.
Went for a spin, and it seems to like the new map. Only the very rare single entry in the knock table. No hint of knock at all on the WOT pulls.
1) I see that is CATS OBDII tuner, is that a pre release or something. There is no info on there website. What calibration is that table in. It's not $42.
2) That table goes up to 105 KPA, how does that work? I though the stock sensor only read to 100 KPA.
Originally posted by liquidh8 bump:: Has anyone come up with the vortec 5.7 SA table, or VE table. I've searched all over the internet and personally haven't had any luck. I was going to use this LT1 table, wondering if anybody has tried it out yet on there 350,tbi,7747,vortec head engine yet??
thanx all
There is a Vortec TBI bin over on Moates site. It is in a file called 63.zip
Originally posted by liquidh8 bump:: Has anyone come up with the vortec 5.7 SA table, or VE table. I've searched all over the internet and personally haven't had any luck. I was going to use this LT1 table, wondering if anybody has tried it out yet on there 350,tbi,7747,vortec head engine yet??
thanx all
There is a Vortec TBI bin over on Moates site. It is in a file called 63.zip
Thanks for that heads up. I never even knew it was there yet it's been over a year since it was hosted!
Interesting to note, use the $0D tdf/xdf to view and things line up nicely. The main SA table is the same but the PE and CTS SA are different. VE is different as well but not by much. Obviously, with the vortec heads the exports didn't have egr and that's why the CTS SA table looks the way it does. Really cool looking through it but I'm mistified with how little they did with the spark
They lean out the PE afr above 3600rpm and add 2-4 degrees more timing. I guess the rest of the SA table has to do with thermal limits?
Again, thanks for pointing the file out.
outstanding. Thank you!! Will download the zip file and the correct xdf so I can view it. I am not running an egr r any other emissions, this may be a much better baseline than what I am using. Scotsea, thank you, jp also.
I tried the above posted spark table last weekend on my Vortec TPI, and I dropped over 6 MPH!
Back to back runs with the only difference being the spark table resulted in a 94 mph vs a 100 mph.
Safe to say this isn't the spark table for performance oriented cars.
I also noticed the my torque converter change changed my engines timing needs. The engine liked more timing then it did before, I guess the 9.5" puts less load on the engine!
Why would you think that a spark table from another engine would work correctly for your engine? At the very least you’d have to have the same chamber/quench layout, cam timing, compression, load placed on the engine (less gear/bigger vehicle will tolerate less advance under the same conditions) and similar induction and exhaust just to get them close.
Even if your engine was exactly the same as the one in the truck you should be able to get away with/take advantage of a more aggressive advance curve just based on the vehicle you have it in.
. 100 Kpa is kilopascal where atmosphere is just over 100 Kpa, I believe 101.4 and 1 bar is 104 or something like that. Anyways, lower Kpa = vacuum so idle is usually in the 30 to 50 range while cruising is in the 40-70 (80 if your car is a dog), and decel is in the 20's. These are just relative numbers so don't take them as fact, just concept. 
.
. The exhaust, intake, and clutch fan aren't helping things.
This isn't 1970!
