Make sure you have a copy of the PPII software setup on a CD somewhere as backup. I didnt do this and the disk that came with it wasnt reading in my A:, luckily I was able to copy it to my c: after trying for a while. $50 for a new copy is BS.

No, it's not.
They USED to supply software for free. Until some other companies designed their hardware to be compatible with the PPII software.

Just another case of semi-piracy ruining things for the good guys.
I don't see why PPII should HAVE to develope software for free.
How would you feel if someone was giving away your work?.

Backups, are necessary, when working with anything computer related.

Just to keep it prom related, I've been using their stuff for over 5 years, and have had one failure, one runs about 24/7, and the other while intermitent goes for 12 hrs at a time, doing proms every few minutes when working on the ecm bench.

I have to disagree with you here, Grumpy.

When I pay $179.00 for hardware, expecting it to work on my platform, I shouldn't have to pay another $50 to get it work the way it is supposed to.

Its one thing to pay for upgrades that make the software better, but another to pay for upgrade that makes the sofware work the way its supposed to. I've heard of XTronics charging people for upgrades to their sofware to make it work on their platform (just recently, in fact), and I don't think that's agreeable.

Regarding others making their hardware compatible with PPII software, sure... charging people makes a return on the effort of writing the software for those who don't buy the hardware. But for heaven's sake, don't charge the people that actually bought the hardware! Make the damn passwords to upgrade free to those who bought the hardware!

Anyway, just my nickel.

M

You missed the point of the original post, he'd lost the software, and had no backup. Norton, and Diacom never would give me free software, when I lost/ crashed, or other wise blue screened them.

As to updates, I've never had to pay for any from Xtronics. I've just called Karl and explained to him what my issues were, and he'd give me the password, or send me what ever the updates was. It's been like 2 over the last 5+ years, for the PP, and PPII, and then 1 other for another programmer I have.

If you just click on a web site, and read thru it, it may differ from when you call them up and explain a given situation. Karl and George have both treated me, pretty darn well.

Beleive me I say I apppreciate what you and others have done in the way of free/low cost/shareware, but there's alot of people that don't think like you. For them, they need/want to get something for their efforts, and depending on their situation, they get to call the shots on what they want to charge for. If Xtronics, Norton, Microsoft want to charge for things in a given way, that's just their right to do that.

Gotta run, just saw Doc with the keys to the Black Car. Man he's getting quick..........

If you lost a CD that had the setup file on it then, yes, I can see where that would be your own fault and you're responsible. However, when the best the can do is send a floppy disk with the $180 piece of hardware, then $50 is unreasonable. Im also in the IT field (software development) so you're preaching to the choir about piracy, however I still have my original recepit and the original disk it came on. If I was going to give the disk away once I got it, why wouldnt I just make a copy of the one I already had?

yes, I know what it is like to have my work given away for free! just ask stupid service writers who think you need to work on there friends cars and then not charge just void out the R.O.

I agree that they could have done what (desk top dyno) did for me. I had a bad day and was in a hurry and for some reason?? I left the cd in the papper envolope in my desk drawer and in a end result slamed the draw shut with the cd cought in it and broke. I just mailed them the broken one and they mailed a new one to me at No Charge! even shipping would have been expected but, I was not charged one thing

In closing, at least on my part.
You might just for grins call them Monday and see what kind of response you get. Since so far, it sounds like your just talking about a hypothetical situation.
Like I said, they've never charged me for any updates, or duplicates.

I'd side with Bruce on this one, give them a try. While the initial appearance is that they'll drag you over the coals, the fact is that you're an owner of their hardware. They really ought to be able to take care of you.

I've had to call in the past to get a software fix here & there. Even though I was running a PocketProgrammer 1, they took care of me. Karl and those guys gave me a little bit of resistance, but I didn't have to push too hard and next thing you know here comes a good email.

I think Bruce is right that it's pretty much there (the fee) to deter the hardware clone stuff like the HongKong-based copyshops such as Futurlec probably is.

Just ask Mark what a pain in the arse the software side can be!

On the other hand, if they do indeed refuse to give you a software refresh even though you're a legitimate hardware owner, then that would be total BS...

Let me tell you a little ditty:

I noticed 2 weeks ago that they updated the romulator software. I emailed Karl for the update passedo. He said, "your romulator is more than a year old. An update is $60."

It wan't until after I explained to him, once again, that I was a developer working them that he finally said, "oh, ok, we can do it for free."

I'm convinced he would have charged me had I not explained.

So there's the flip side for ya.


Now, all of that said, the XTronics folks have ultimately been good for the care, but like craig mentioned, at times it took some fenagling.

Oh, and no. I didn't miss the point of the original post.

OK - this is how it works. We have a choice, we can give cheesy support and obsolete the product every year like is the computer industry norm or we can give good support to customers who pay for it after the first year (not 6weeks). If you lose your software and call most vendors up: are they going to give you a download? Two years later? Are you even going to get past the voice mail system? Hell, just try to find their phone number on most of their web sites. If you do get a hold of someone to talk to will they have a clue?

If I was a user, and I didn't bother to back up the software, I would get a copy from a buddy. (BTW We are always reminding people to back up software and password.) If you want to have someone to call that will do what ever practical to get you going again, it is going to cost you a few bucks a year for that support.

The piracy piracy issues cost us a lot more than missing sales. (The pirate units don't work half the time, we get ALL the calls and sworn at when they find out they got took. To take legal action is estimated to cost over $1,000,000 (I'm not making it up) and would take most of a decade. Our legal system is set up to only protect criminals and big business.) The cost just in handling phone calls from pirate uses is getting ridiculous – should we go to a 900 number system? It takes time to find out if a caller is really a customer – yet I have to.

Let me make it clear what would happen if we did this like the other guys. Ever year or so we would have a new system that is completely incompatible with the last one. If your unit was two years old and it quits there is no repair. (We still fix programmers that are almost 20 years old). There would be software available for down load for a couple of years for free – but if you call with a question, you will find you won't get a helpful answer. Then when M$ comes out with their next system (or security fix) there will never be a version for the old product. Instead of paying $49 for an upgrade you would have to pay for a new unit.

In the case that started this thread someone left out the little detail that the upgrade includes a year of support plus, they get a hardware upgrade that introduces new features (a sort of poor mans trace) that last time I checked cost well over $400 in our competitions product.

We don't charge for bug fixes – never have. If you buy a new computer and get a new incompatible operating system, you often need more than the software update. We spend time helping people do things like turning on their COM2 port that was dedicated to an IR printer. But all that takes time and money. Should we do it for free forever?

I think we probably will come out with new hardware – it could solve the piracy issue In the mean time I will try to set up a log-in system for software downloads – but if you need support you will still have to pay after the first year if you haven't made any more purchases.

BTW we get phone calls from customers who have bought something that sounds like an emulator, but it isn't. I can't remember the name, but it turns out to be just a flash chip – so you have to start and stop the car all the time. If you know what this product is, you might warn people that it isn't really an emulator. The good news is that a couple of customers have told me that the Pocket-Romulator can pay for itself the first time in saved dynamo costs. (I have no idea what dynamo time goes for? Does anyone ask for free dynamo time? We could start a new sideline ... hmmm <grin>)

Karl at Transtronics

Dynamos are cool!

Just kidding...

I know where you're coming from Karl. Sounds like you guys are doing what you need to do to address the issues...

I emailed Transtronics and it came back undeliverable, inform@xtronics.com. I call, 785-841-3089, and it rings off the hook.
any thoughts,
Mark

Could be anything. I'm sure they'll take care of you ASAP though. Everything I've seen suggests that they're a real solid outfit.

I concur. They've been around forever and provide solid support. Give it another shot.

Still rings till recorded message from phone company comes on and disconnects me.
I will try again Monday.
see ya,
Mark

Ever have any luck?

Finally someone answered the following week.
see ya,
Mark

But did they give you software? or did they make you have to pay?

I would of had to pay, but I found it elsewhere.
fyi,
Mark

There's an easy solution to this. I currently disagree with how Xtronics is doing this. I also tried to obtain the latest version of the software about a year ago and was turned down. I was like ... What the F%^&? I turned A LOT of customers on to them through my PROM article and they won't even update my software for me because I was outside of that year? This seriously pissed me off.

Anyhow, a whole heck of a lot of major software companies allow you to update your software. I disagree with what Karl just posted. I am a software developer and get updates for FREE on tons of software packages I have already purchased. Let's carry that forward into the PROM area. TunerCat gives free updates, Bill (Prominator) gives free updates, Mark (TunerPro) gives free updates, etc. Free updates are more the norm these days.

The simple solution I mentioned before is this: Xtronics should allow you to register your software. If you register your software then you should always be allowed to retrieve free updates. Paying $60 for an update of the software you currently own is ludicrous unless that software offered a significantly different feature-set or was built from the ground up using new technology. I could see paying the money when Xtronics moved from DOS to Windows. But now, I don't see a reason unless they fully rewrite the software in .NET or introduce new functionality that gives us users something incredible.

Tim

I will have to agree on Tim's (Traxions) point that ONCE you buy a licence that it should not be limited to just "one year" of updates. But also don't approve of people who buy "Pocket Programmer" imitations and then try and pickup the software for free by posting on this site either (seems to be few of those lately).

At least Xtronics is NOT as bad as Norton/Symantics. Those jerks keep making their software more and more complex to the point where some of my older notebooks don't have enough power to run the software. But what is worst, after a couple of years, Norton then decided to NOT SUPPORT a previous version (which did run on my notebook), won't sell me a new licence and FORCE me to buy their newer software that won't run on the damn notebook.

I swear that Norton/Symantics (as well as Microsoft) have "profit sharing" in some of the hardware manufacturers and do this PURPOSELY to force you keep buying new computers.

DAMN, I'm on computer #5 in the last 6 years. And I won't tell you how many computers I have bought before that. I am ready to open a museum.

I understand that need to stop supporting old versions. I'm on board with that. I also understand (more than most) the need to stop supporting old, outdated systems and operating systems.

Why?

Why should I, as a developer, NOT include features that would require more processing power just so that the people who are still in the original Pentium 100 world can use the software without complaining? The answer: I shouldn't. It's all based on the topic at hand, however. Obviously many users in these forums doing tuning in-car are using older laptops because laptops are expensive and people who drive 80's cars don't generally have loads of money. So the line of what gets support and what doesn't needs to be drawn carefully.

Transtronics/Intronics is in a similar place. Many of their users (the DIY electonics projects buffs) are using old systems. Luckily their software is not processor intensive, so they don't have to worry about old computers. However, they'll soon be faced with users in the "now" who want high-speed USB functionality. But they'll still have to offer solutions to users who only have a parallel and serial port on their machines.

Though I generally don't like having to pay for upgrades, there are two sides to the argument. Firstly, I don't feel that I should have to pay for an upgrade that makes the software *worK* where it didn't before. However, I don't mind so much the need to pay for an upgrade if the software has really cool new features that took the developer (be it a person or company) many man hours to implement.

My take on this?

The software is required to make the hardware (PP2, romulator, etc...) operate. Without the software, it's a $150 paperweight, that isn't heavy enough to really call it a paper weight..... I think as long as the customer can prove that they're using a genuine PP2 (Maybe give and invoice number???) the software should be provided.

The video card it my PC (all my PC's actually) still havfe current updates available for them (Nvidia).

Again, pretty much all of this thread is opinions of how people think things should go, with the exception of Karl saying how things DO go for Transtronics....

I'm concerned, since I just got a Pocker Programmer on ebay... It was a pretty cheap price, although it is the original Pocket Programmer, and not the pocket programmer 2. It comes with a driver/software floppy and a CD that he made (copy of the floppy, just on cd)

I don't know if that version is going to work with Windows at all, let alone XP. I am just hoping it does.

I kinda see it as getting into the grey area, since I am now going to be the second owner, not the original owner. I am hoping that maybe I can get updates somehow... but I am becoming doubtful. So I guess my hoping should go to hoping it works for Windows. If it doesn't work with Windows, I will have to deal with them and figure out how to get them to give me software.

I still feel that if you own a genuine Pocket Programmer you should be able to get updates.