I've been away for a while, and I'm thinking about getting into tuning, but from what I've read, I won't be very effective unless I'm using a WBO2 sensor. From what I remember, there used to be a Honda one people were using and adapting it somehow, and then there were commercially available ones for a LOT of money. I'm wondering because I can afford getting an AutoProm, but I'm not sure about the WB, so I want to know the latest. If you guys wouldn't mind, what are YOU using, and what are the latest choices we have as far as WB sensors go. Also, those of you who are NOT using the WB sensors, how effective have your efforts been without it? Thanks a lot, guys.

The DIY WB is still alive and well, cost is a little over $200 depending on how much you pay for the sensor.
http://www.diy-wb.com/

There are decent commercial units available too, at reasonable prices, thanks to the DIY WB kicking down the door. By far the most popular at the moment is the Innovate LM-1
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/
http://www.bnecustoms.com/Wide%20Band.htm

I've never heard of anyone who's used a WB, who thought it was a waste of money. But, if you can't afford it right this minute, don't let that stop you. You can still make significant improvements in your car's tune without one. Just be very aware of the limitations of the stock O2 sensor, when you get away from stoich AFRs (like when you're trying to tune PE).

This means that I can still tune part-throttle situations pretty well? I'm pretty new to prom tuning, but from what I remember, PE is a WOT thing.

If this is true, part-throttle tuning is going to be very important to me anyways, since I'll be working with engine upgrades that require tuning just for driveability. From there I could just do my best at nailing down WOT, even if conservatively so.

Thanks.

Having a WB makes the process go faster, and gives you some other options as to how you go about things. But the "traditional" method of tuning BLMs to 128 is still a valid technique. That covers idle, and most cruise situations.

People were tuning WOT for years before we had computers, or oxygen sensors, so it can be done without a WB. But a WB just makes it so much easier, that once you use one, you'll never want to do without one again. Without a WB, what you definitely should not do, is to try to tune WOT to any particular O2 mV number. I mention that, because there's still some bad info floating around, that might suggest otherwise. Just tune the engine so it runs best, and doesn't detonate.

As a general guide, for a typical stock $8D TPI calibration, PE mode kicks in between 50-70% TPS, depending on RPM. You can find the exact thresholds by opening your bin file with your editing software, or by looking at the appropriate hack. In steady cruise, not in PE, or highway mode, the ECM's target AFR in closed loop is usually 14.7:1, and that's when you can get by OK with the stock O2 sensor and BLMs.

There's a bunch of good info in the sticky posts that explains much of what I touched on in greater detail.

i'm a n00bie to prom tunning the stock o2 sensor is working good for getting the blms to 128 on cruise i'm around 130 now which is dammed close compared to where my motor was with the stock programming 160

dont try to use it for WOT i've tried..

Assuming you're tuning the car in your sig;

I'm using the Innovate LM1 for logging AFR, TPS, MAP and RPM. Basically, it's just told me my WOT AFR was too rich. I pretty much nailed down the tune with a GM heated O2 sensor and by running many sessions of VEMaster.

http://home.comcast.net/~jgeorger/

This little program really works for getting decent driveablity. Do a search here and you'll find a lot of information.

Its invaluable for tuning the extremely annoying little things that gnaw at you....


Like that flutter when coming to a stop or that little hesitation when you leave a stop sign :-)

Its worth every penny!

The one day using it with my Formula and the lady driving I only made it about 20 minutes before a neg batt. post gave up the ghost, but when your shotgun and realize how a sweet the car is pulling from a stop, you just vindicated yourself for the cost of the wideband

Not only will it work for tuning PE and AE fucntions u can truly dial in your highway mode fuel and see exactly what your running it at.

later
JEremy

Its invaluable for tuning the extremely annoying little things that gnaw at you....


Like that flutter when coming to a stop or that little hesitation when you leave a stop sign :-)

Its worth every penny!

The one day using it with my Formula and the lady driving I only made it about 20 minutes before a neg batt. post gave up the ghost, but when your shotgun and realize how a sweet the car is pulling from a stop, you just vindicated yourself for the cost of the wideband

Not only will it work for tuning PE and AE fucntions u can truly dial in your highway mode fuel and see exactly what your running it at.

later
JEremy

If you have the time, and want the learning experience a DIY-WB is a great deal.
If your buying a WB then get the Innovative.

I do tuning both ways, thou, I now just about always have a WB running in the background. For Stoich conditions, and wanting to nail down the BLs to 128 the oem sensor is just fine. But, anything other then that, and your basically guessing, and personally I'm not thrilled about WOT tuning and having to guess.

But, by the same token, the ICE has been around for along time before WBs, and some how we muddled along without them. They just speed up the process, and in some cases ALOT.

And the normal disclaimers apply, about reading plugs to make sure, of where your at.

Actually, I wont be tuning the combo in my signature, because the whole reason I'm getting into proms is because I'm switching to an HSR, and then heads and cam, so on, as time and money allow. I've actually had the HSR for nearly a year now and haven't put it on because I'm dreading having to tune it. But I think I'm going to buy an AutoProm and give it a shot.

I was actually at a point a year ago when I could buy all the things I needed for the engine and the computer, but then I realized I wouldn't have any money for the transmission and differential I was about to tear up

Thanks for the help.

If your interested I can call Innovate and see if they will let us do another group buy. It has been a while from the last GB so I would imagine they will if we have 5 people interested.

Let me know, Glad to help

I'm definately interested in a group buy. I didn't know the LM-1 was so cheap now. I have my part throttle tuning dead nuts 128 (22 MPG city on a 350), but my PE and open loop are way off and impossible to do with the stock O2. Plus it'll give me peace of mind when jetting my nitrous.

Good luck finding a cheap NTK sensor these days. I haven't checked lately, but the last time I did the price was almost triple what I paid for mine originally. Unless you find a used sensor, the DIY isn't all that cost-effective, especially when you consider you still have to come up with some sort of display for it. It would be nice if someone came up with a circuit to work with the Bosch sensor.

The NTKs were kinda scarce and expensive for a period of time, but IIRC it's been reported that they're available at more reasonable prices again. I think Grumpy mentioned that a couple of months ago. (I apologize for not doing a search for the exact price, but I've got a plane to catch here in a few minutes)

A bargraph display is an easy addition to a DIY WB. And with $6E, $8D, or $58, the WB datalogging code patches beat any display you'd care to name, IMHO.

But yeah, having a low-cost option for the Bosch O2 in DIY form would be nice too. Shame that some people had to try to cash in on the original DIY design, and ruin the chances of further public-domain improvements for everyone.

Since my car never has had, and more than likely never will have any sort of an ECM, pretty much any display I'd care to name beats your code patch hands down. I built my display out of samples from various vendors I patronize at work, so it didn't cost me anything. The actual AFR is shown on a 4 digit tri-color LED display, as well as logged to a serial port for capture by a laptop.

I'm in.. let me know.

Last couple I bought were $169, from Autozone. And the NTKs are still the standard by which all the WBs are measured. Bruce Roe was selling LED Display boards, that were easy to build. All in all, it's still a way to save money, and learn a little in the process.

Count me in on the GP if Innovative will do the deal.

How about AEM's wideband gauge. Around $400. It uses the Bosch LSU 4.2 sensor. I wanted to use this with Mike Davis' wideband hac'd 730 8D. It says "user programmable 0-5 volt output", but you only get to select from 3 or 4 different outputs. I have the .PDF with the voltage output charts. The Vout doesn't match the NTK sensor so it wouldn't work, unless someone was willing to patch in the LSU 4.2 tables to get it to work. Let me know if someone wants to look at the .PDF and I'll post it (or e-mail it to someone who knows how to post it). http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp

Innovative's WBO2 also does 0-5V output with the 8$ cable (and probably without it if you're someone who can figure out things.)

I just looked at Innovatives web site, and they show a set of cables needed to input and log RPM, and they're $100 and $20. I would use this on my 165/6E vette, but would like to also use it on my carb'd vehicles as well. Has anyone been able to input data to one of these without the use of these expensive cables?

The new TechEdge WB version 2 uses a remote display. It is computer controlled and uses the new Bosch LSU4 sensor. If you connect a PC you can log AFR, RPM, three analog inputs ( TPS, MAP and something else ) and three EGT sensors ( Type-K ). It costs about US$490 with sensor, display and shipping.
http://wbo2.com/

AustinT, it doesnt look like much of a following for a GP on the Innovative WB. Maybe if we get a confirmation from Innovative with a quantity, we should start this as a new topic.

Get it quick! I'm looking to buy one within the next 3 weeks.

Where's the best place to install the sensor on a dual cat system?

And is still the derived work of piracy/ violations of user agreements.

Derived from what? Not the DIY?

I agree that the ver 1.0 is questionable.

Ver 2.0 is a compleatly new desing and as far as I can tell it does not share anything with the DIY unit.

Other then all the conceptual ideas.
One is just a progression of the other. If he hadn't had access to the first one, and made the money he did, I doubt he'd have been able to figure the second one out, or fund it.

If he was clever enough to do the Bosch, on his own, why didn't he just do it first, the Bosch WBs have been around for at least as long as the NTKs.

Close examination of his replies in other Boards reveals what he's good at.

Version 1.0 is a direct copy of the DIY-WB. Version 1.5 is a direct copy of the DIY-WB with a different heater circuit that he lifted from someone else.

V2.x has elements of which that have been lifted directly from the DIY-WB.

If it were not for folks like him (and his supporters) there would have been newer, better, and cheaper DIY-WB designs available for hobbiest.

RBob.

Sounds like a couple people need to send out some copyright infringement papers from a friendly lawyer or two :-)

Would really be funny to hear them whine when others who made it and designed them for our use basically for free, would stick it to them for it :-) The clincher would be , they wouldnt want money lol :-)

Its pretty sad state of affairs that I have learned of since being a heavy prom board guy and eventually a mod here. I understand why some brilliant folks here who design and make stuff for free use and distribution(not for profit) copyright every single thing they do, whether for profit or not. Too many folks have basically ripped us off(meaning better newer designs and more efficient devices)

I know the LT and LS1 edit stuff is highly questionable where exactly it all came from.. Some of the marketable widebands are as well, as previously mentioned...

Best thing I can think of is, we need a wizard who could make something work just as well for 1/2 the price and go whoops I thought this up, there goes your market :-)

Rant of now
Jeremy
PS Huge thanks to all who contribute with their ideas and designs to keep us on the cutting edge of tuning technology

^^^^ thats all that matters.

I've got something to say here, perhaps out of line, certainly opinionated, but pertinent to these boards nonetheless.

Speaking for myself, I'm not working under the dillusion that I'm the first guy to ever write software for tuning cars. I'm not even going to lie and say every element of my software was all my own thinking and ideas. And, importantly, I'm not kidding myself that people aren't making a profit from my software and that people aren't taking my ideas. Lets face it, if we all had to re-invent the wheel, progress would never be made.

Now, I only know the partial story behind the Oz WB guy. I'm sure he took the ideas and outright profited on them. But really, the DIY-WB group was not the first people to come up with circuitry to power and monitor a WBO2. Yes, he took the ideas for his early models directly from the group. Yes, that sucks and I don't condone it (maybe offer the early model as a built version of the DIY-WB unit and offer later re-designs as his own). But get over it and move on. DIY-WBs are *still* available and viable.

Certainly there's no reason to blame any kind of lack of progression (which I don't even believe to be the case) on the fact that someone else has commercialized one of our ideas. I'm not even sure that can be qualified (I'd like to see that).

If I stopped making progress with my software it would be my own fault. Not because the next guy took my ideas. Hopefully he took them to the next level! That wouldn't be any reason to stop working. If I'm not profiting, what have I lost?

Where does the line get drawn, really? If someone offers the straight DIY-WB unit *built* out of their garage for the cost of parts and some time, would that be crossing the line? I'd thnk, based on what I've seen in this TGO community, that it wouldn't, even though he's profiting. And I agree with that - he's not crossing the line. I suppose because it comes down to credit(?). Maybe its the lack of credit that makes everyone mad?

When the next guy comes out with tuning software that uses features that are exclusive to my software, I'm not going to get mad and become threatening. I'm not going to call him a pirate. I did it for free in the first place! Not only that, he still had to go through the trouble of coding it up all on his own. The DIY community is *still* going to be the DIY community.

We are not referring to a 'taking' of ideas. We are speaking of the direct 'taking' of a design and selling it for profit.

How would you feel if someone 'took' your source code and renamed the OZ-TunerPro and sold it for Dollars?

Quite the difference, isn't it.

Then even claimed that any and all improvements would be given freely back to the community, and were not.

RBob.

Now that's some clever wording.

The DIY-WB group was the first, and to date the only group that I know of that's public domained how to do it. If you know of another group that's PD'd the info., please let post a link to them.

There was/is nothing trivia about the original undertaking. IMO, it's a real shame so many have taken it for granted.

F**K lawyers, F**k infringement. Sorry, feeling ornery.

By the way, is anyone thinking that there's a need for a reasonably-priced WideBand interface? Maybe something sub-$100? Just let me know.

In terms of what I think, guess it doesn't matter. BUT, it is that the OZDIY was a total rip on the DIY-WB thing.

That being said, I have both units. I can see where the OZ profited (no pun intended) from the $ toward extra functionality etc. So, the argument is as has been told: two-sided.

RBob, perhaps there can be newer, better, and cheaper units available despite what has happened. I know that some folks got burned in terms of trusting that their ideas would not be monetized once publicly disclosed, but my thought is that such an expectation is unreasonable considering the nature of the world. Should I see what I can do?

HELL YES.

That's pretty much the whole reason I started this thread; I need to know ALL the options before I actually fork over all that money. I want one as bad as the next guy, but I can't afford it as much....it would definitely be a financial risk for me, as a college student. If all of a sudden my transmission goes out....WHOOPS!....where did that extra $400 go?

I can justify buying an AutoProm, and am about to take that plunge and I probably won't regret that in any circumstance, but it sure as hell would be nice to have a cheap alternative to the WB choices.

Problem is, I'm not sure it's possible. The DIY kit is $200 or so, so I don't see where you'd cut the cost. I figure, though, if anybody could figure it out, it'd be you Craig!

No difference at all. Truth is, if I decided to distribute source code, the fact that it would be taken by some with less than honest intentions would be part of the equation I balance when making the decision, and though I may bitch about it, the bitching would be limited. I would eventually get past it, move on, be quiet about it, and continue progress. This would be simple because I didn't kid myself about the possibility from the beginning. We're all adults here (most of us, anyway), and none of us are innocent to the world.

And that, my friends, is why TunerPro is not open-source. I am more than willing to give portions of source and direction on implementation to anyone who asks.

And let me make it clear that in my original post above I did state that I disagree with the practice of the Oz WB guy.

Actually, after looking more closely, $170 of the freaking $212 is for the sensor. Isn't the Bosch one like much cheaper? Has NO ONE designed a circuit to use that one instead? Now that I've seen that, I really think it IS possible.

Why is the Bosch one so much cheaper at $60? Is it a poor product? Considering the brand, I would doubt it, but you never really know. Unless it IS poor, I'm amazed someone hasn't used it yet besides the commercial companies.

I hate being such a freeloader, but I honestly don't have the skills to do it myself, or I totally would. Maybe I should switch to EE instead of ME so I can learn

Seems like you'd be able to put together a board for less than $30, and with the $60 sensor, you should be able to hit around the $100 area and still make some money for your time. I bet a TON of guys would jump at the opportunity for a cheaper one. I bet Mark would be able whip up a program to use with it. Craig, you interested in this?

I'm also looking to invest in a WB.
Either the group buy or alternative.
I perfer to not line the pockets of others who have unrightfully abused/profited from the public knowledge freely handed to them.(Stated as nicly as I could)
The idea of taking the information, producing the product at a small profit for labor time, etc, seems ok to me provided the disclosure of the technical source or developer is stated completely. Everything out in the open.
IMHO This is not a rip off of technology but a service provided for another without the time or skills need for the job. To me the DIY would be difficult for me to build without purchasing the right equipment and hoping I don't make too many mistakes.
The Innovate looks "easier" in my position.
If Craig or someone else has better plans or whatever, let me know.
JP

going back 7+ years ago, when the DIY was started, the Honda was $90 and the Bosch $250. Inflation, and popularity of the Honda has raised it's price, just one of the evils of supply and demand. The Bosch is now being used in a oem application, whre the manufacurers are having to cover it under warranty. In order to keep a somewhat cap on warranty costs, they're being sold at a cost plus level. Once they're not in the warranty useage or at a low enough useage level, the prices will probably go back to the old price of ~$250. So while the Bosch is *now* cheaper then the Honda, don't expect it to stay that way long term.

And while you might call it freaking $212, that's dirt cheap compared to what the market was like prior to the DIY-WB project. Pre DIY-WB, there were only two commonly available, and they were both over $1,300.

Does anyone have the PLX unit? I like the feature of the narrow band out to feed to the ecm while still being able to use the wideband at the same. The price is pretty close to the innovative unit.

Where did you see this? Do you have a link? I'm interested in this.

http://www.plxdevices.com/M-Series_productinfo.htm

$329. I have happy feelings.

It gets even better....

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

$279 with sensor, no display. Does datalogging so you can plug your laptop into it. Outputs 0-1v for stock ECM.

I'm thinking one of mine & Bill's little AFR meters setup to do 0-5v with LM3914's would make a simple fast-reacting display if you need one. I'm really liking this one.....

Hey, that little Zeitronix unit looks just too cool! I'd be willing to try one out!

I was planning my next investment WBO2 and found the “TechEdge” stuff but after digging at DIY PROM I found the experts are against this guy due to the already mention reason, that’s has scare me to put his WBO2 on my wish list, the Innovative’s prices are at the top level, so my WBO2 wish is at the bottom of the list.

If this board can motivate some hardware wiz boy’s and they put a competitive WBO2 on the market it will be the reason that our WBO2 on our wish list will climb.


My observations by reading this thread are:

1- “Progress” is the word. (By Mark) One is just a progression of the other (By Grumpy)
2- “Options” (Read possibilities)
3- “Reasonably-priced”. (By Craig)
4- “After sells” (Missing by the DIY-WB) but you get lots of support from other DIY guys.
5- “Bosch sensor”
6- “$200” is the goal.
7- “Craig, Bill, Ken” You are the hardware guy’s
8- “Grumpy, Rbob, Mangus, 3.8TransAM” You are the moderators (Check that things are transparent)

Schedule:
First issue should be at Q4 of 2004
Start public selling at Q1 of 2005

This are my thoughts please think about.

Regards,
Cobra289

I'm not a moderator (and not sure I'd want the job), my friend. I'm just a peon.

I know that you and Grumpy are not moderators from DIY PROM board but I put you both on “my wish list” as the moderators for the new WDO2 design.
That is your new job for you Mark and it is not a matter of “Want” You just get the job. (Joke)
Regards,
Cobra289

I don't know man, with something like that Zeitronix unit already feature-creeped up, it looks pretty good for the price. Guess it's still a little high though...

Hmm, what would be the desire:
1) Basic unit, just control with a raw WBO2 volt output
2) Something with a little feature creep (linearized / serial outputs, etc)
3) Full on feature bloat (integrated display provisions, multiple analog/digital inputs, data buffering, NB simulation)

How about a vote: 1, 2, or 3. Pricing and timing would vary apportionately.

The perfect WBO2 setup for me (efi guy) would be a wideband that also outputs a narrowband so I don't have to drill holes in the exhaust. And a wire to go to the ECM so I can pick up the WB data with datamaster. A display would be nice, but having it in Datamaster would be better so I can log it with the rest of the data.

Yes the Zeitronix looks great. But YOU guy’s can better. (Not me, I am only the stimulator)

You can think about a modular system.
Like you say:
1- The controller (No sensor) (A digital voltmeter is OK for the first time)
2- Sensor
3- Cable
4- Input options and output options
5- Display option
6- Software option

Other combinations are possible and should be evaluated by the moderators.
Hey guy’s there is plenty work for YOU.

Regards,
Cobra289