JPrevost

Quote: Originally posted by BMmonteSS From the sound of things, the 747 hack won't do you much good. Rbob has changed so much their isn't much stock code left. Rbob, do you plan on releasing a commented hack? I completely understand if you don't, it would suck big ones if Brian at TBI chips started offering Super ultimate tbi kits. I'm about 100.00001% sure he isn't going to release for that exact reason. The ecu/xdf/tdf files will have EVERYTHING you could possibly need and then some. If you wanted to go through everything it would take you a good years worth of weekends... in other words, no need for a commented hack . There is also a copyright. Lessons have been learned since the DIY-WB debacle.

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BMmonteSS

If everything worth changing is in the ecu/xdf/tdf then there is no reason for the hack. A copy right is deffinately the way to go! Good work guys I would really hate to see your hard work make some one else a buck.

Dominic Sorresso

Never said it was useless. Maybe you could send me some of your useless pieces of paper in return. Like the ones with Ben Franklin on them.

dimented24x7

I dont know about all those those ben franklins. Im pretty attached to those. I was thinking about maybe a couple of lincolns or a few jacksons, or some mix of the two. J/K

http://www.moates.net/files/6)%20Mis.../%24OD_DIS.ASM

Heres a partial that I posted for others to download and work on. Its getting dated day by day as I continue with it but its got some useful info in it none the less. Im almost done with the fuel loop. After the PID loop most of the stuff youd likely use (w/o a 4L60-E) would be documented. Not likely to use the 4L60-E stuff as I have a stick.

Dont want to derail the thread too much further but maybe Ill see if I can update it every so often. Dont want to detract or compete with the UTBI, but lots of options are always nice

Grumpy

I'd about put money on no one seeing a commented hac of it.
With whatever he winds up charging for it, it'll be a gift. There's no way, he can begin to recover the years, he's worked on it.

DM91RS

I'm sure that most of us will never know how much time. It sounds pretty complete listening to JP and Rbob.

As far as the hac. I'd rather pay the copyright owner/software writer to do any changes. Sometimes it's more cost effective to pay to have things done.

I've got plenty of other diy projects to do where I actually have a clue of what I'm doing

ben73

I have a question..
When Bill/Ken were involved, there was talk of some code to spit out the MPG info to the milage display in 84 vettes..
Is this still gonna be available?
This is probably the one thing that would get me to ditch the '8625 PCM.

__________________
Red/Red 84 Vette. 383 Crossfire 12.48 111.6mph

RBob

Sure is. I spent a bunch of time investigating the data stream and coding it. Didn't see any reason to take it out

Ben, I think that you will like this setup.

RBob.

7Point4

Was waiting on the speedreader. Wanted to goto a '7060, until i heard about the speedreader. Running a '8747 now.

Now I wait on the whole package.

Dominic Sorresso

I can hardly wait. My hero.

justlearning

now whos the lucky SOBs that get to beta test this thing?

Fast355

I volunteer. I need the VAFPR correction coding(a little rough without it), fan output(Intrepid Fans), A/C clutch control(DA6 sucks HP), the PE output(for the electric cutouts I am getting) and the MPG display(Gotta know what I am getting). Also need the IAC parameters to get rid of my 1,000 rpm with the A/C on idle that I have yet to fix, after trying everything I gave up. Oh and the self-tune for the 383 that is going in, in the spring.

Speaking of which, RBob do you think it will run the Caddy MPG display I have laying in my garage(DFI era, circa early 80s think Modulated 6.0).

__________________
350 Vortec shortblock, balanced, blueprinted, 18cc dished pistons, total seal rings, ported 906 Vortecs, Edelbrock TPI Vortec base, Custom Reed Grind Hydraulic Roller Cam, Doug Thorley Tri-Ys, 2 1/2" exhaust, Stock TPI runners and plenum, stock 48mm TB, 24# LT1 injectors, AFPR @ 46 psi, 7730 ECM, DIY Tuning, stock 1,600 rpm stalled 700r4, 3.08 gears, P295/50/R17 tires.

Soon- 4L60E and 7427 TBI PCM in MPFI mode

ben73

Sheez, now I am in a bind!! I am part way thru building a 4L60e to go with the 8625, so I have to decide if I want the MPG display with your box'o'tricks, or an electronic trans with the PCM.. You could solve all my probs if you just slapped together a bit of code to control the tranny and squeezed it in there somewhere ;-)
I'm going to have to have a really good think about this..
You guys are very clever.
Is there a shift light output (or any rpm triggered output) also??
How about WB input, even if only for logging in the lockers output datastream?
One more thing, does the graphing section of the logging software have the ability to graph any of the i/o?

__________________
Red/Red 84 Vette. 383 Crossfire 12.48 111.6mph

BMmonteSS

Yes, Yes, and Yes, your on your own for the tranny control. It might be worth running the 8625 as a tranny only ecm.

ben73

WOW! Any chance at a sneaky peak at the software?

__________________
Red/Red 84 Vette. 383 Crossfire 12.48 111.6mph

Dominic Sorresso

Ben,

Looks like RBob has us in a "headlocker"

dimented24x7

That PCM is a really nice piece. The more I look at it the more I drool over it. Theres stuff like derivative spark and fuel control for controlling the engines idle, the aformentioned trans control. True 100% speed density system that uses actual air density, AFR, etc. to calculate the fueling (bit leery of using speed desity with TBI). Multiple and seperate VE and spark tables, PID control for a linear EGR, PID control for just about everything else, and too much other stuff to name.

dimented24x7

Like I said before, Ill probably have both the PCM and the romless lockers setup.

JPrevost

Same. Only the PCM will be there as the trans controller . Well heck, I could easily make it as the backup ecm incase anything happens to the romless!

RBob

The fueling is still the same basic method. It is true SD with gas law being used. Many other masks even in P4's use the same technique: $58, $88, $8F to name a few. It is just using lookup tables instead of complex math.

Dimented, as you surmised the ability to blend the IAT and CTS is key. This allows the intake temperature to vary (such as using a true cold air induction and/or cool manifolds) and still be able to calculate the proper PW.

Combined with the expanded VE tables and it really works out nice. The addition of fuel in the intake manifold affects the volumetric efficiency of the engine. Which is then adjusted in the VE table.

RBob.

RBob

I don't know if it will work with the Caddy dash. The current U-TBI digital dash data stream is for the early Crossfire C4's. Popular upgrade is going to a '7747 in place of the stock ECM.

If you have any information on the Caddy data stream PM me and I'll see if it is the same. Or can be easily added to the code.

RBob.

RBob

Well, tonight I am taking a break from the Embedded Lockers project. This Monday the board house will be making PCB's! It took a little longer then I wanted, but as long as I expected. I have the list of parts with industrial temperature range or better along with suppliers. The right parts for a reliable system.

The board form factor is still the same as the picture I previously posted. One change is the use of a standard RJ-11 jack for the serial RS-232 output. I moved some parts around and fit the jack so that it points straight out the end of the case. And in a position that allows the EPROM to be R&R'd (isn't layout work fun ).

To the right of that is the 12 position terminal bus for the ADC inputs. Eight ADC inputs, three grounds, and a +5 volt serial output. This 5 volt serial output is the same data stream as the RS-232 output. This is for future uses.

By using an RJ-11 jack regular phone cords can be used for the serial cable. There are DB-9's available with an RJ-11 jack in the back of them. Makes it easy to hook up (of course these items will be provided with the Embedded Lockers unit).

Ben73, you asked about some I/O. There are eight 10-bit ADC channels on board. These are sent with the rest of the ECM data. A WB can surely be connected. So can temperature probes, EGT probes, fuel pressure transducers, basically any 0-5v (max) analog device.

For digital I/O we have:

Inputs:

VATS
VSS
Cranking
A/C request
N2O armed (on PSPS)
Park./Neutral
Hi Gear
Knock

Outputs:

TCC
SES (duh)
N2O enable (on EGR out)
A/C clutch enable
Shift light (on CCP out)
PE mode active (on Divert out, air stuff)
Fan (on Select out, air stuff)

The shift light is RPM based and is available for both stick and auto tranny's. It is a separate output from the TCC output.

In closing I think that someone asked about installation. Looking at the inside of a '7747 or '8746 ECM (among others) there is a small board tha the EPROM and CALPAK is mounted on. There are two 25 position ribbon cables going to it.

The two ribbon cables need to be de-soldered from the little board, and re-soldered to the Embedded Lockers board. This isn't as hard as it sounds. If anyone doesn't want to do that or does not have the toools to do it, for small charge I will do the install on an ECM you send to me.

The ECM will be tested prior to install and after install (no sense doing an install on a bad ECM). It will then be shipped back.

One last thing before I post this post: the rev-limiter. It is a soft limiter. At first it reduces SA (pulls timing), if the RPM continues to increase it will turn off the fuel. I used the term 2-stage in a previous post. Not sure if that is the correct term.

Both the SA reduction and fuel cut parameters along with the resume parameters are user programmable.

This same limiter can also be MPH activated.

With a separate set of parameters for Valet mode vs. 'normal' mode.

RBob.

Bones232

Are the 25pin ribbon cables soldered on both sides of the board like the eprom socket?

Are there provisions for egr & a.i.r. for those who need emmission control?

You have really done your homework on this project. I am in awe

ben73

RBob, it might be easier if you tell us what it can't do!!!

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Red/Red 84 Vette. 383 Crossfire 12.48 111.6mph

Gladstoneiroc

I think that I once saw that the speedometers on tpi cars could be atleast tuned if not altered though the ecm. Will that be possible on tbi now?

7Point4

Sounds absolutely excellent. Good Job.

Dominic Sorresso

Rbob,

Does this mean we should install an IAT if we don't have one today?

RBob

Yes, the ribbon cable is soldered into plated through holes. The difference being that you can destroy the PCB while unsoldering the ribbon cables. The board is no longer required.

I'll have instructions on methods to do this. In short, I like to use a old tooth brush and something like BrakeKleen/Goof-Off/finger-nail-polish-remover to remove the conformal coating. This is done from the top of the board along where the ribbon cable meets the board.

Then wrap the ECM in newspaper or such to protect it. Leaving the little board hanging out on it's own.

Now this part gets crazy: I use a small plumbers propane torch, on a low setting, along the bottom of the little board. Wave it along the solder joints. They will let loose and the ribbon cable comes out (wear eye protection as sometimes the hot solder will fly).

I have also used a hot iron and solder wick and hit each pad. Wick the solder out and out comes the ribbon cable. Again, it doesn't matter if pads or traces are lifted as the little board is no longer required.

And, the ribbon cable is tough. The wires are large and the insulation holds up.

The current U-TBI code does not support AIR and EGR. CCP is supported by using a charcoal cannister without a purge valve. Many mid-70's through 90's GM vehicles used this type of CCP unit. This is what I used on the '78 ElCamino.

RBob.

RBob

It would be nice, but no. The C3 TBI ECMs do not have speedometer and cruise outputs. Or the hardware to really support that.

RBob.

swerve-driver

This package will be such a leap forward for ALL level of tuners- it is unreal.

We are so fortunate to have these guys focusing their attention on TBI.

Cash is ready and waiting for finished product!!

Thanks again for your efforts-

S-D

RBob

Highly recommended. The only time I would say an IAT is not required is if the intake air and manifold temperature is controlled. This is along the lines of an aircleaner with pre-heat and thermovac valve and a water jacketed intake manifold.

On the Firebird which I have the aircleaner ducted to the cowl, along with coolant plumbed to the intake manifold exhaust crossover (head exhaust crossover ports are not present), I placed the IAT behind the front grill.

This actually works out nicely. When moving it is very close to the actual intake air. When stopped it picks up a little heat from the radiator. But at the same time the intake air is also picking up some heat (off the hood, through the duct work, etc.).

At first I tried the IAT mounted into the base of the aircleaner, wihich is on top of the TBI. It would pick up heat from the engine and not be representative of the actual intake air temperature.

Now, if the engine has a fully jacketed intake manifold, such as a stock TBI unit, then placing the IAT in the aircleaner may be better.

RBob.

dimented24x7

IMO the only ingrediant still missing from the SD calcs. is compensation for the change in temp when the fuel evaporates. What ive noticed is that at low kPa's the fuel evaporates and drops the intake charge down to around 40 deg. F or less, increasing its density, even when its hot out. I would imagine compensation for that would make things bang on. Although Im unsure of the best way to implement it.

Dominic Sorresso

RBob,

I was thinking of putting one screwed into the hood duct work found on the C4 Xfire Vettes. There are channels running down the length of the hood ducting to the aircleaner air intake snorkels.

ben73

RBob,
How complex is the 84 vette MPG code?? I'm thinking about how difficult it would be to patch other ECM/PCM's to do the same??
Ben.

__________________
Red/Red 84 Vette. 383 Crossfire 12.48 111.6mph

Gladstoneiroc

What if we are using EGR? What will we need to do?

BMmonteSS

You'll have to ditch it, or at least leave it on the intake to pass a visual inspection. This code isn't meant to be emmisions compliant. With the right cam you could probably still pass a sniffer test without it. You could also just swap a stock ECM back in whenever testing time comes around.

RBob

I have been considering several possibilities for folks that require emissions control. This would be a future addition to the Embedded Lockers setup. And depend upon demand.

One possibility is just stock code, either '8746 or '7747 code. Another would be the enhanced code with EGR, CCP, and AIR added back in. In order to do this some functionality would be lost: N2O, Fan, and PE mode active output. The reason is that these use outputs that are normally used for emissions equipment.

It is dependent upon the level of emissions required. If just EGR is enough that can be added without much loss of other functions. Although, if EGR is required, then CCP and AIR would normally be required. Emissions is usually an all or none deal.

OTOH, CCP can easily be covered with the non-soleniod controlled cannister. These were used in many cars and trucks of the 70's, 80's, and '90s.

Then again, if you can do what BMmonteSS has suggested. That makes it easier all around.

RBob.

DM91RS

Will the LC-1 wide band that Craigs selling now be usable with the Lockers setup?

http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?products_id=88


Thanks,

DM

BMmonteSS

Yep, it'll log any 0-5 volt input. The LC-1 has just that.

DM91RS

KOOL...........It's looking better and better. That's the one thing that I noticed the short time that I got to use Datamaster on a C4 was that it was missing a WB input as far as I could tell. (Did not look for one really)

Gladstoneiroc

Sorry I don't know this, but what would pe mode active be used for? I am only using egr cause it supposed to have some mileage benifits, although it has very mixed reviews. I also still have the CCP.

RBob

I've used it for illuminating an LED and also to increase the vehicle voltage (bump the alternator voltage up). Others like it to operate air intake flaps for cold air while in PE mode.

RBob.

greg0380

Ok, this is relatively new to me, but I want to learn. Would this setup work on my TBI truck with $42 7747? If it will, I'm buying it?

RBob

Yes, it will work in the '747 ECM. One feature of the Embedded Lockers is that it converts several different ECMs to a single ECM with Ultimate TBI code.

You can grab a '8747, '7747, '8746, '8063 ECM (and a couple of others) and install the Embedded Lockers into it. Once that is done they will all be the same. The only difference between the above ECMs is the code, 2/3's of which is in onboard ROM. That is why they have different service numbers.

The Embedded Lockers setup disables the onboard ROM and places all of the code into EPROM. So any number of ECMs may be used for the conversion.

RBob.

RBob

Things are moving along. As I type PC boards are being manufactured and parts are enroute to my shop. Once everything arrives I'll be building boards. I'll do one first and test it out on the bench. From there it will go into the daily driver for final testing.

I have been working on the calibration table document. This describes how the UTBI tables work and interoperate. With this tuning will be much easier.

Another example of code functionality: open loop modes. The code can run as standard closed loop code. I use it as such in the daily driver as it has a CAT. For full open loop it is a simple matter to just set the closed loop enable temperature high. And disable the malf codes 13, 44, and 45.

However, there are option bits to do the same, and then some. For open loop idle just set an option bit. Off idle will stay closed loop mode. For open loop cruise set another option bit. Best part is that the O2 diagnostic routines know that open loop mode is active. And will not throw an error code.

With the two open bits one can have open loop all of the time, or just open loop idle, or just open loop cruise. Nifty stuff.

Another open loop mode is what I call transient open loop. This is nice when closed loop is desired, and one still wants the throttle response of open loop mode. Transient open loop is triggered by a moving TPS. Once enabled there is a timer for when to drop back into closed loop.

Of course the lean cruise highway mode is also available. This is another open loop mode.

RBob.

greg0380

sweet, who do i send the $ to?

RBob

I will be handling the orders and shipping. There may also be a distributor for the Embedded Lockers setup. This is still being worked on.

I am not collecting any funds ahead of time. Once I have the package packaged up I'll let everyone know. It won't be much longer.

Eventually I will set up a Web Site for support, information, software upgrades, and such.

For folks that don't want to convert their ECM themselves that service will also be available. Ship the ECM to me, I'll test it, convert it, and re-test it. Then ship it back.

RBob.

JPrevost

The software is coming along nicely. I'm starting out with a version that doesn't require much video card power. It won't be "as" pretty as the next releases but it has all of the functionality.
The software will be avail to download shortly. Not making any promises as there are still some bugs & needed features that haven't beem implemented yet. As it stands, it is still very functional, just not perfect ... yet.

ben73

Excellent! I'm looking forward to having a play with it..

__________________
Red/Red 84 Vette. 383 Crossfire 12.48 111.6mph

Dewey316

Rbob, since this will be ROMless now, would a ECM with a bad PROM socket be ok? I have a spare ECM laying around, works fine, I replaced it because the chip would not seat well anymore. For this setup would this work? That way I can leave my current ECM in the car, and ship you the spare?

<--- can not solder for his life.