added e-fans today, quick job thanks to Rbob. Works great!!! Most of you F-body guys already have fans, but us truck nuts don't. Running dual 14 inchers now... I've noticed pretty good gains. impressed once again by EBL

SA-Initial SA. The text says to set this to the distributors base setting. My LO5 engine truck should be set to 0d with the ecm wire disco'd.
I've just noticed that the .bin I've been using has this set to 5.98d.
Is this right or should I have the scaler set to 0d and therefor add 5.98d (6d) to all my tables?
I've noticed that the WUD shows more spark than in my tables at any given point. Is this why? Setting the Initial SA to zero and adding 6d to the tables should make the WUD and tables show the same?
Thanks for any pointers!

The tune assumes you have your dist set to 6 deg advance. Yet you have physically the dist at 0 deg advance. So I would think the engine sees 6 deg less advance that what is in the tables. I would set the initial SA to 0 in .bin. Then the engine will see what is in the main SA tables cept for any adders like PE.

roger that

Base setting of the dist has to do with TWO things.
1. The ECM failing, and the engine running strictly off the module in the dist.
2. Starting the engine.
My sticker says zero, but the truck likes 10. I've deliberately failed the ECM to make sure. Yours is probably different. Regardless of where it is, you pretty much have to have the bin match the dist, else nothing works quite right, since the ECM doesn't know where the dist really is, and is making decisions based on wrong information. On top of that, YOU won't know what it really is, since WhatsUp is reporting based on the info it's been given, which is wrong. EBL, unlike some others, reports and has tables for crank degrees, as long as the base agrees with the dist. so it's important they agree. If they do, your tables will be right.

The truck runs fine, so if I now set the initial SA scaler to 0d to match my distributor, should I had 6d across the board on the main SA table? I understand about the dizzy and ebl having to match, just not sure whether to alter the tables when I alter the Initial SA value.
Thanks for the replies so rapidly!

this is all you need to change. set it to what your dizzy is set to for base timing. don't go adding or reducing the main SA tables to try to compensate somehow for base timing. you want 2 base, put 2 here and set dizzy to 2. you want 10, put 10 in and set dizzy to 10. then leave it

Yeah I understand that thanks, what I'm trying (badly) to say is that I've done all my tuning with the Dizzy at 0d and the Initial SA set at 6d. If I want to keep the tune I have ('cause I've put a lot of work into it and I'm quite happy with it) surely I need to alter the main SA table if I put the Initial SA to zero now?
The way I'm looking at it is, if the main SA table reads 15d at a certain point, I'm actually getting 21d advance at that point because of the 6d Initial. So if I put the Initial to 0d, surely I will now only be getting 15d at that same point? So in my poor old Limey brain, I'm thinking I should add 6d across the SA table to keep the same tune.
Also......on the WUD, is the SA shown as the 'all in' value? Initial, main, PE etc, whatever is going on at the time?

Thanks .....my head hurts!

While I understand your confusion, without going down to the garage, and doing what I'm about to suggest, I don't know. It seems it would go the other way off hand. If you're commanding 15, and have the base set at 6, then the ECM should be doing something like...
OK, he wants 15, and he already has 6 mechanical at the dist, so he needs 9 more. Send 9 to the module, because 9+6=15.
Therefore, if you have 15 in the table, and the dist is actually at zero, you're only getting the 9, because there is no 6 at the dist, but I've been known to get turned around before....
I'd put a timing light on it. Change the base setting, and put the timing light on it. Which way did it go ?

I believe ( there is one participant who can answer definitively ) that the same logic as above applies.
After all the calculations are done, Main+PE+whatever-base, and a value is derived, we want WUD to display what will appear at the crank, so add back in the base, and display that number.
The ONLY time I've found the WUD to not agree with the crank within a tenth of a degree or so, is under acceleration, or rapid TPS change, something where engine conditions are changing faster than the data stream rate.

SO, if you put a light on it, it should be real obvious, as the light should be off your timing map by exactly that 6 degrees base, across the board, meaning you don't have to drive it anywhere, or even goose it, just see that the light is off by 6 degrees as compared to the WUD with the engine running, and which way.

Is this making sense, or just confusing the issue, and I should just shut up and sit down ?

When you change the Initial Timing (in the BIN) from 6 BTDC to 0 it will ADD 6 deg of advance across the board. To retain the exact same timing after the Initial Timing is changed to 0, lower the main & extended SA tables by 6 degerees. In TP highlight entire table, toolbox, offset by -6, execute, save.

Think of it this way: when the ECM does the SA lookups and adds/subtracts all of the timing values, the Initial Timing value is subtracted out. This is because the physical location of the distributor adds it back in. As long as the Initial Timing and distributor base timing match it is a wash.

Since you are going to change the Initial Timing from 6 deg, to 0 deg. The ECM will no longer be subtracting out the 6 deg of Initial from the timing value, but 0 degress. So the engine will gain 6 degrees of timing.

RBob.

{edit: forgot about your last question:

Also......on the WUD, is the SA shown as the 'all in' value? Initial, main, PE etc, whatever is going on at the time?

The SA as displayed on the WUD, and in the log output is the actual at crankshaft timing. You can put a light on the damper and check it against the WUD and they will match. If not then either the initial SA (BIN) or the distributor base is not set correctly. }

I think we're reading of the same page here. I'll put a light on it tomorrow and see where it's at. Thanks for the input so now go sit down, put your feet up and have a beer

OK, understood and thanks. So to elaborate a bit, the SA table and the Initial SA is what you supplied with my EBL package. I've done all my tuning with the initial not matching the Dizzy as stated. I've been trying to find the time lately to mess with my spark tables as it's always felt a bit on the flat side on WOT although starts and drives nicely. Could it be that it's sluggish because my dizzy being set at naught means I've actually been running 6d retarded from your recommended (supplied) SA table or am I looking at this from the wrong way?
If I put the initial to 0d and take off 6d across the board, won't I be running 6d less than you intended?

Thanks.

Maybe someone can explain where the SA tables will vary from a base EBL F body 305 auto TBI bin and a .bin from a stock 350 GM Blazer. I assume you have a stock 350 auto in your Blazer?

If that is the case why not use the spark tables from a Blazer, keep the dizzy at 0 deg physical which you state is factory, place 0 deg for initial adv and start fresh from there. Watch for real KC's. It appears your tune is retarded more that you realized. BUT the stock Blazer SA tables may be more retarded than the F body .bin tables so maybe by coincedence you may be OK running retarded SA?

I seem to remember RBob telling me that the EBL tables are very different from stock tables as I originally asked if I could transpose stock onto EBL tables but was told it couldn't be done.

Lets let someone else comment on my thought.

I thought you can cut and paste in TunerPro. Check out the help area in TP as to how to do it. I ran stock EBL SA tables which are the F body and ended up taking out spark but i have a Vette. I left the PE adders.

I'm not too sure about that, since I've done it.
The math is different, and the modifier tables are different, so a straight copy likely isn't possible, ( and likely ill advised ) but working through the values for each cell in the map, and making one ECM have the same result as another is do-able.
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????

TunerPro can copy as long as the definition file is the same. It can't copy from an 8746 to a 7747 or an EBL, because the xdf is different, but that doesn't mean you can't copy to a spreadsheet, and then copy back from there.

Confusing (for me anyway!) that a stock asdz .bin on average 3 or 4 more degree timing per cell than the ebl table that I've just subtracted 6d from.
Maybe RBob can throw some wisdom my way before I start burning gallons of gas at $10 a gallon re doing my tables!!

Yes, you are currently running with 6 degrees less SA timing across the board. By changing the initial SA setting in the BIN to 0 you will be adding this 6 degrees back in.

With that the SA as delivered in the stock EBL calibration will be the same. As long as no other changes have been made to the calibration.

To match what you are currently running while changing the BIN's Initial SA to 0 (to match the distributor) you will then need to remove 6 degrees from the main & extended SA tables.

Please note that in your original post you wanted to change the BIN's initial SA to match the distributors base timing AND retain the same SA as you are currently running.

RBob.

Excellent. Thankyou. All is clear!

You mentioned ASDZ as the original BCC. Here is the SA timing pulled from that BIN and manipulated to fit the EBL BIN. This takes into account the main SA bias and SA slope (neither exists in the EBL). This is why I mentioned that the SA from a '7747 can't be taken directly and dropped into an EBL calibration. To match the asdz calibration in an EBL calibration use the values shown. It is in both tab delimited (for cut & paste into TP), and as a jpeg (for clarity).

Note that there isn't a lot of timing. The asdz cal is for trucks such as C1500's, C2500's, G10 - G25 Van's (2WD, 1/2 & 3/4 ton with a 5.7L LO5 and auto).

There is another degree of PE SA then the stock EBL cal: 4.9 deg vs 3.9 deg.

RBob.

Thankyou I'll give that a try too as well as the EBL supplied one with my initial set to 0d.
Really appreciate your help.

Well I cut and pasted the ASDZ bin into my EBL tables today. A compare to the supplied EBL main SA table shows a degree , give or take, less timing for the ASDZ set. With my Initial now set to zero I went for a 60 mile run. All was well apart from some light knock around 1800 rpm, 80 map out of PE. I took .50d out of the cells immediately around that area and that seemed to cure that.
The truck felt much more responsive and smoother. I 'think' I'm running slightly leaner. The WB readout seemed generally .2 higher but I need to go over the data logs to check that.
I'm tempted to try the supplied EBL SA tables but with slight knock with the ASDZ table I may be asking for trouble!
Am I right in thinking that it's best to reduce spark, rather than add fuel to combat knock?
The knock was so short that the SArt on the WUD moved but didn't register a value, however, after 40+ miles I'd clocked up 229 knock counts.

Every start up registers 40 to 60 knocks. Normal?

Thanks again for everyones input and help.

In my opinion, adding fuel isn't a good way to combat knock, most of the time.
( like every rule.... )

In my experience, the SA screen registers 40-60 counts in the cell the cursor is in at key-off just about every time.

Every start up registers 40 to 60 knocks. Normal?

Yes, normal. Usually from the starter engaging. Counts are counts, where retard is when the timing is actually backed off. Can have counts but no retard. Note that at key-off both counts and retard can be recorded. This is false and needs to be noted as false. So that you don't back off SA thinking it is real knock.

The reason it happens at key-off is that the ESC module is powered down immediately. This causes false counts to be sent to the ECM, which is still running.

If your engine is stock it most likely has swirl port heads (an LO5). With these heads and even the LO3 with swirl ports require less spark timing then the timing in the stock EBL BIN.

Don't add fuel for knock, backing off the timing is the correct way. The AFR is reporting leaner as the engine is more efficiently. Less combustionable products are going out the exhaust.

RBob.

Many thanks. I'll play with the VE tables to bring down the WB a touch when I'm happy I'm not getting anymore Knock under all conditions.

Hi Bob-

I recently received my EBL Flash system, thanks for getting it out fast. I'm doing some maintenence on the car ('91 L03 wagon with 16136965 ECM) so it will be a few weeks before I start running the EBL, but during the downtime I figured I'd get the initial EBL bin at a good starting point.

My starting point is a commercial chip I bought for the L03, I know these are pretty hit or miss (ok, mostly miss) but this chip actually did really improve the drivability of the car, which is a California smog engine. The only changes from the stock chip are a lot more AE (which the car really needed) and some more spark advance a little more fuel, but since the car does run better on the chip I'm going to use it as my starting point, and I got a few questions about moving the chip tables and settings to my EBL system.

I think I did the VE tables ok, I used Excel to make a combined single table from the main and adder tables in the stock ECM, then interpolated the extra rows and columns needed to fill in the higher resolution EBL high and low speed VE tables and pasted it into the EBL tables. Did I miss any other settings or tables that need to be moved to get my original VE info?

I'm trying to do the spark tables next, so I copied the orig table into Excel, it stops at 3600 RPM. It also had a SA slope constant of 7.69 deg/1K and a 4600 RPM Extended RPM Limit. From what I understand, the effect of this slope and limit is about the same as adding one more row at 4600 RPM with 7.69 degrees added to all the 3600 RPM values, is that correct?

I then interpolated the extra rows needed for the EBL tables and copied the values in. After all that the table doesn't look that much different than the original SA table you supplied, but what the heck, it seemed to be running pretty well in the engine as long as I used premium, so I guess I'll use it as my starting point.

Is there anything else I'm missing in bringing my old SA tables over to EBL?

Thanks,

Paul T.

The VE is straight forward. Get the rows/columns correct for the 3D table, and then add the VE2 table to it. Any values over 100% need to be set to 100%. I mention the row/col as the main 3D table is pivoted from darn near every other table out there.

The VE table rows are by MAP KPa, the columns are by RPM.

For the main SA table it is almost as you posted. The slope is the amount of advance per 1000 RPM. As you understand the SA at 4600 RPM is the 3600 RPM row plus the slope (per 1K rpm). Each RPM row inbetween is a proportion of that slope advance.

The bias value will then need to be subtracted from the entire SA table. In the AYKC BCC the bias is 20 degrees. Note that the EBL doesn't use a bias for the main & extended SA tables. You will probably find that the final SA is less then the stock EBL cal. This is normal for swirl port heads.

It doesn't hurt to check the SA vs CTS compensation table. Sometimes GM will hide extra SA in that table. Note that it too has a bias value.

RBob.

My ZT2 WB controller dash readout shows the WBafr .2 to .3 points lower than the WUD shows. I'm sure they used to be equal though??

Which should I believe and can they set to match eachother?
Thanks.

First check the analog output with a DVM. Making sure that the Zeitronix output is correct. Also check that the grounding for the WB analog side is correct. If possible run an analog reference ground to one of the the EBL ground terminals.

At the moment there isn't any adjustment available in the WUD. Really shouldn't need it. But if it a ground offset error, then maybe an adjustable user setting should be added. The issue I see with stuff like this is that it is easy for a user to mis-adjust it. Then get false readings.

RBob.

My original 305/L03 .bin file has the following settings:

Min Async Injector Pulse Width 0.69 ms
Min Async Injector Pulse Width 12.74 ms
Async to Sync Inj. Pulse Width Threshold 0.99 ms
Sync to Async Inj. Pulse Width Threshold 0.69 ms

while the starting point EBL settings are

Min Async Pulse Width 503.58us (0.5 ms)
Max Async Pulse Width 11994.36us (11.9 ms)
Async Transition Hi 701.96us (.70 ms)
Async Transition Lo 503.58us (.50 ms)

Bob, should I change the EBL settings to match my original settings, and out of curiosity, what does this effect?

Thanks,

Paul T.

Thanks, that's an interesting point actually because I originally didn't run a ground to the EBL board until it was suggested a year or so ago here. When I ran the earth it altered the reading slightly. I'm ,at present , having some weird power supply problems which could well be earthing issues so I'll look into that.
Thanks as always.

My stock Cal emission L03/305 .bin has the following EGR settings:

Base Pulse Constant Vs. Vacuum (EGR On)
Kpa BPC
(null)
50.0 125.00
40.0 121.00
30.0 120.00
20.0 120.00
17.5 120.00
15.0 120.00
12.5 120.00
10.0 120.00
7.5 121.00
5.0 123.00
2.5 125.00
0.0 125.00

This looks strange to me as the base BPC setting is 134, so my bin was making the car go substantially leaner at all vac settings when in EGR.

Looking around at some other L03 bins I found a L03AMXR bin, which also has a base BPC of 134 and has EGR table settings more like I would expect them to be:

Base Pulse Constant Vs. Vacuum (EGR On)
Kpa BPC
(null)
50.0 121.00
40.0 121.00
30.0 121.00
20.0 121.00
17.5 121.00
15.0 122.00
12.5 128.00
10.0 134.00
7.5 134.00
5.0 134.00
2.5 134.00
0.0 134.00

The starting point EBL EGR-Vac table, shown below with equivalent BPC's, ends up being closer to what the AMXR bin implements, although a little more aggressive:

EGR - BPC Multiplier vs VAC
KPa Mult%
(null)
60 88.63 119
55 88.63 119
50 88.63 119
45 89.02 119
40 89.02 119
35 89.02 119
30 89.80 120
25 89.80 120
20 90.98 122
15 93.33 125
10 96.47 129
5 98.43 132
0 100.00 134

And just to totally twist my brain, here's what the commercial chip I bought for the engine implements, it actually goes richer at low vacs in EGR:

Base Pulse Constant Vs. Vacuum (EGR On)
Kpa BPC
(null)
50.0 114.00
40.0 114.00
30.0 114.00
20.0 114.00
17.5 115.00
15.0 118.00
12.5 122.00
10.0 127.00
7.5 132.00
5.0 136.00
2.5 136.00
0.0 136.00

Any opinions on why my stock bin is so lean at low vac settings, is this a California smog issue? Also, any opinions on which EGR-Vac table would be the best one to implement in EBL?

Looking at part numbers a little, it turns out that Cal L03's do have a different EGR valve, so I guess its possible that is why the table is different, anyone know any more about what's different on the Cal EGR valves?

Thinking about this issue some more, when the engine goes into EGR mode, its still in closed loop, correct? So it will keep making BLM adjustments to keep the mixture at 14.7, correct? If so, it would seem that if these EGR table settings are off, the engine will be retuning itself everytime it goes in and out of EGR mode, is that true? That would seem to mean that these table settings need to be pretty close.

Thanks,

Paul T.

You can use your stock values. Probably match your setup a little better. The min/max async PW is the lowest and highest values that can be programmed to the injectors. Anything lower or higher is saveed for the next loop and accumulated over time.

The async lo/hi transition values are the sync PW set points where the ECM will switch in and out of async injection mode.

Can also grab the injector bias value (a single constant) and enter it into the "INJ - Injector Correction offset" table, all locations.

RBob.

EGR valves come in three varieties: negative backpressure, positive backpressure, and regular (no pressure). They each open a different amount relative to the applied vacuum and exhaust back pressure. That is why the large differences in the tables.

Yes, as the EGR opens and closes the INT/BLM's will adjust. They will always adjust some. Too many variables involved to have the EGR/BPC dead on all of the time.

For initial VE table tuning, disable the EGR & CCP. Once the VE tables are good enable the EGR. Now do VE Learns but DO NOT USE THE BIN. Look at the corrections display and adjust the "EGR - BPC Multiplier vs VAC" table to suit.

Remember to convert the MAP in KPa on the display to VAC in KPa for the BPC multiplier table. Will need to grab the key-on, engine-off MAP for barometric to do this.

Once the EGR is tuned in re-enable the CCP. No tuning required for it.

RBob.

Bob, thanks for the help on both issues, that all makes sense to me now. I'm itching to get tuning but I have to wait a couple of weeks to put the car back on the road so for now its just "desk chair" tuning to get the .bin as close as I can before first fire up.

Being an old carb guy this EFI stuff is fun to learn, I'm happy I won't be messing around with pump shot cams and shooter nozzles any more.

Paul T.

Rbob-
Any tips on tuning the TCC function? I'm trying to milk the stock converter for all it's worth, plus, I would like some pointers on how to tune the TCC for optimum performance. Next converter will stall at 2000.

Well, TCC's tend to be fragile. So it is best to lock & unlock them when the load is light. And to keep the locking/unlocking to a minimum.

For go performance keep the TCC unlocked. Let the convertor do it's job

For mileage performance, lock the TCC, don't let the convertor slip.

Also note that the transmission temperature can increase substantially while the TCC is unlocked.

With the above in mind setup the lock/unlock points the way you like them. TCC setup is mostly user preference.

Note that if the low-gear/high-gear tables are reversed, flip the HiGrH polarity option bit. This reversing of the tables is that the low gear table is used when the trans is in OD and vice-versa.

RBob.

Can you explain that again? I have the TCC stuff all stock EBL right now.
I thought Logr stuff was 1,2,3 and higr was OD.
Rbob, can you break it down just a little more? really appreciate you explaining this stuff!!!!

You are correct about LoGear being 1, 2 & 3, with HiGear being 4th (OD). There are two sets of lock/unlock tables (TPS% required vs MPH). One set for lo gear, the other set for hi gear. There is a switch in the transmission that tells the ECM whether it is in hi gear or not.

However, GM used both NC & NO switches. So in some transmissions the switch output is high for hi gear, other tranmissions have the output low for hi gear.

The HiGrH option bit in the calibration defines which switch is which.

Say you have the transmssion gear select lever in D (3rd) , and are working on the TCC lo gear lock/unlock tables/values. And nothing changes. The changes you make in the cal are not causing the TCC to lock/unlock at the values you are setting them to.

Most likely the HiGrH switch polarity is incorrect. The ECM is actually using the hi gear tables. Flip the HiGrH option bit and the lo gear stuff will then be using the lo gear tables.


On another note, did you receive the WUD update? Gmail won't allow a .zip attachment, so I renamed it as a .jpg and then sent it.

RBob.

yah, got it. thanks man

I think it's my laptop, but I can't open datalogs with the new WUD. I can make them, but I need to analyze them in the older version. It happens on my laptop and desktop

That's strange. Although if using Vista set the WUD program properties to run it as administrator. If not running Vista what kind of issue is it? Can't find them, can't open them, do you get an error message.

RBob.

Rbob, I did a VE learn today using my Autoprom as an emulator (first time with a learn). When I got home, I used Tunerpro RT to compare the VE low tables because I noticed it going lean under light cruise. The new table actually took fuel away??? For instance, at 45map and 1600 rpm, the value went from 69 to 61. I'm using a LC-1 WB. The reason I did the learn is because I was getting some surging, and noticed the WB reading on the WUD going as high as 18:1 around one specific area.

I installed an aeromotive VAFPR, but did 2 learns a month ago prior to this one and everything seemed to go well then.

Any ideas?

There could be any number of reasons for what you are seeing from the VE Learn. If the LC-1 is reporting correctly, the high AFR can be from lean cruise mode.

Best thing to do is to set up a VE Learn and play back the data log (just delete the new BIN when done). While the playback is occuring slow it down and watch the main display. At the areas of interest hit the pause button, then switch to the VE display. Note what the AFR is and what the VE Learn is doing at that point. Can switch back & forth between the screens and pause/continue.

Also, the commanded AFR will vary in open loop. There are two open loop AFR tables to define the targeted AFR. It may be that the commanded AFR is also high. Can use the anlaysis display to see the commanded vs reported. Or, run a dump of the log and open it in Notepad. Can then use that along with the play back to see more information. The run time on the WUD will correspond with the run time in the dump log.

RBob.

Hello all. I have a question, has anyone hooked up the autometer electric fuel pressure gauge to their EBL? I tried today, and the WUD is reading the pressure a few pounds higher than the gauge. The gauge sender are spot on with a mechanical FP gauge, so what gives?? RBob, any input here? Is there a way to calibrate the display? I would REALLY like to get this working for me, as I a have a VAFPR, and having the FP follow on the dump file would help me make sure I have the BPC vs VAC table good. Especially since the BPC change isn't linear.

The autometer FP gauge and transducer should be grounded to either the engine block or the GND on the EBL. The other thing to do is to check the FP transducer output with a DVM. To be sure that it is correct.

RBob.

HOw do you mean grounded? The trans ducer has 3 wires coming from it, I am guessing power, ground and signal. Being power to and signal. Then there are 2 more wires for the gauge, power and ground to the guage. So the gauge plug has 5 wires, power and ground in, the power/ground/signal out. Should I just run power to the power in, and the ground to the gauge put in the EBL.

I am an idiot today , but I just don't want to mess up the EBL.

Thanks RBob

sorry to interrupt- what's the part number for the Autometer kit that is compatible with the EBL?

thanks guys

Since you are also using a gauge run the gauge ground to the engine block. See how that works out. The power can be any ignition switched source.

Does the gauge have a separate output for a data logger?

RBob.

Ok, I'll try and ground the gauge to the engine block, I guess I shouldn't try grounding the gauge to the EBL?

No, there isn't another wire for a datalog output. I'll have to go to the autometer site and see if there is anymore info. Or pull the gauge out and see if there is another pin coming out of the gauge that just doesn't have a wire to it, and put a meter on it.
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I'll have to look it up, I bought the set-up from my friend after he took it off his blown silverado SS

Here ya go, Was rooting around autometers site to get the p/n of the sender, I have the whole gauge

sender p/n 2246

guage and sender p/n 5763

RBob, I d/led the instuctions, I am a idiot , there are extra pins for a datlogger. It says for and autometer datalogger, but I will stick a meter on it and see. There is a signal out and a ground. Thanks!