Quote: Originally Posted by Duts87ss I just got all my wiring done for the EBL swap and the ECM finally back in the kick panel. I hope to load and bin and fire it up on EBL power for the first time tomorrow afternoon; assuming all my wiring is correct. Bob, above on this page you mention taking the LC-1 ground off the ECM. I have my LC-1 grounded to the engine indirectly (a location under dash that's tied to the firewall ground, that's connected to the engine via ground strap), and a ground from the same location (under the dash) connected to the ECM. Should I still remove the ground at the ECM? The LC-1 should only be grounded to the engine block, not at the EBL. RBob.

It's more of a redundant ground. The ground wire I have running to the ECM and the ground wire for the LC-1 just happen to be on the same lug/bolt. Is this still an issue?

That is sorta what I did. I used 2 relays and wired them so the ground output from the ebl turned on low speed, and the a/c turned on high speed through another relay.

I went out driving my car Monday and got the VE tables nearly perfect except for and area of over flow at 4800. I upped the BPC again and did another few learns yesterday, but the car wanted to stumble after idling a bit. Even when I used the previous "close" tune, I have the issue; the RPM drops as the MAP value increases. I checked for vacuum leaks, but was unable find anything that looked out of place. I can't hear any audible leaks either.

Any other things I should check for that would cause this?

I believe you can use an unlit propane torch and spray its gas around potential vacuum leak areas while the engine is running. If there are any leaks, the propane will get in and you'll hear it affect the rpms

Also, make sure your MAP sensor's vacuum reading is good - try a replacement sensor out if you have one handy, and make sure the vacuum line connection there is good. I'm a novice with this stuff but I figure this is good advice for your issue.

The MAP sensor in new so it "should" be good. Also the hose is probably a total of 2" long including what is over the barbs. I'll try the torch method when I get a chance.

I just realized I should probably mention this as well:

I had an idle problem come up out of nowhere a few weeks ago. I have the EBL Flash installed (thanks RBob), and recently a WB O2 sensor. I had been working on getting the tune really nice but my car developed a serious idle problem one day.
It would stall if I let it idle at all. When it was cold and the rpms were high it wouldn't stall, but once it would settle down below 800 the problem was there.

After a lot of looking around for standard problems including testing with a propane torch, I found a post on WB tuning with the EBL Flash mention setting Option Word 1 - Bit 2 - OpIdl. <- use Open Loop on Idle.

I set that bit and it solved my idle problem! Maybe it will help yours? Worth a try I guess.

I'd like to here Rbob's thoughts on that idea as I'm running OL all the time while tuning with WBO2.

There could be any number of issues causing an idle stumble. One thought is that an exhaust leak is causing the lean WB readings which forces the VE table higher. I mention this as you are max'ing out the VE at times. This can cause the plugs to foul at low speeds (idle) which in turn will cause stumbling.

With a cam'd engine the idle speed needs to be high enough that stumbling won't occur.

There is an idle spark advance compensation routine to help maintain the idle speed. Too much compensation can cause the idle to change.

RBob.

I've done about 50 tunes to get my VE tables to this state. I'm perplexed with the extreme high and low points in the VElow graph - should I flatten this area out and let the tune evolve from there? I do get knocks, but mainly around the 3000 rpm range.
I'm in the middle of a bunch of open loop tunes.

My car:
stack 305 tpi, new hi-flow cat, your recommended WBO2

I would use smoothing factor and keep logging. At what RPM/MAP is that spiked peak? Did you actually get corrections in that cell? I might manually reduce fuel in that VE cell and see if it reappears in logs.

You're right. The spike is at about 800rpm and 45MAP. Here's a more exact look at the graph, and a spark knock readout.

I will assume that is an area that is not at idle as I expect idle at <40MAP <800rpms. That would possibly first gear at 5-10 mph to see that cell. In the graph it is 1000 rpms. I would pull it down by doing a drag on the graph at spike.

I just remembered something that I changed. I set the idle down to around 700rpm (from the 850 I had set in the MAF .bin); I've got it set to 750 (idle) in the .bin. After dropping the idle manually, I never adjusted the TPS. Is there a minimum voltage the ECM needs to see from the TPS at closed throttle?

I know with the '165 TPI setup I've swapped from that there is a procedure to set the IAC and TPS for idle. Does any of this relate to the EBL procedures?

Remembering now that the problem started happening at the next startup after the idle change, it seems like an obvious place to start. After backing out on the idle screw with the engine running, it idled super smooth. I think I remember reading that the EBL has some sort of idle reset after a start.

I all so you EBL. I think there is less chance of error if you ground directly to the engine block. Just my opinion.

For a MPFI set up, at idle the IAC steps should be about 25. This is with no load on the engine (A/C off, fan off, lights off, etc.).

The IAC will do a reset at key-off after the engine has been running.

The TPS auto zeros in the ECM code. At idle the voltage can be anywhere between 0.3 volts to 0.8 volts.

RBob.

I'll check my datalog to see where the IAC was at idle and then check my TPS voltage. I doubt the voltage dropped below .3V, but double check.

Thanks for the help.

I shoot for the standard 5-15 steps on a Hotrod MPFI engine. It keeps the IAC from wanting to over-correct while coasting and stalling the engine.

I got my idle back in line today but with 0 IAC steps. I'll back down just a touch to get the steps up a tad. I also did a Learn today with no overflow. The overflow was only occurring at the 90-100 kpa areas where peak torque is being made (4400-4800). A couple more VE Learns and I should have the VE tables pretty close (for now).

Now I can spend some time on timing.

Seems like I'm the only one with problems lately. Everything has seemed to be working out pretty well. The air-fuel raitios were starting to get lined up with what was in the commanded table and WOT is even falling into line.

Today I had a car club meet to make and decided I'd enable closed loop again to see how things acted. While cruising down the interstate at ~75mph and ~2800rpm the AFR was high 16's. It seemed to do this everytime I got to a steady cruise. Even in third gear (Drive), at ~40mph cruise the AFR was hitting high 15s to low 16s. I used the same bin on the way home, but with closed loop disabled, and the AFRs were right back in line. What am I missing?

just a thought, did you have the HiWy lean cruise mode or EGR enabled?

EGR is definately disabled. I'll have to look into HiWy cruise.

Rbob,
Hey, I just got my EBL Flash box and haven't even moved a pin yet but I already have a question.....
I have tuner pro RT, when I start the software I have no Constants/scalars, Flags/Switches or tables/functions panes open.
Do you know what is wrong (I know it isn't your software )

Need to depress the tool bar icon shown in the picture. It is near the center with the left arrow in it. Be sure to read in the XDF file supplied with the EBL (EBL_V24.XDF), along with a BIN.

RBob.

Nevermind.....If I'd spent another 10 seconds on it I'd have figured it out

Having a problem. I have a 89 firebird 350 with EBL flash and in closed loop everything is fine. While warming up in open loop the car stumbles and pings on any type of acceleration and after 3 or 4 pings it takes off. I looked at the open loop rpm vs map vs afr and it all seems to be in line. Wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction.

Thanks
Bill

Check and maybe reduce the after start (choke) SA along with the CTS compensation SA. The after start SA decays out rather quickly. So would only affect a cold engine during the first minute or so.

RBob.

Does initial spark timing in .bin match the actual distributor setting? With ESC plug disconnected they need to match.

I have been tuning about a year and have never changed my bpc. It has been at a stock 134, and with stock tbi350 injectors flowing 91# per hour it needs to be at about 96. I found the % of change between 96 and 134, then multiplied my VE tables and my AE PW tables. My truck is still running completly rich on startup, and on idle. I have not even attempted to try to drive it.Am I doing this the right way by finding percent of change and then applying it to the bin? If so, what else should i change?

96/134= .72 Yes I would reduce VE 28% and see how car runs. If that is too much reduction then globally add back in 5% in VE. Were you over 100 in any cells in VE? I suspect you would be. With that large a BPC you were telling ECU you have smaller injectors so it will overfuel in all areas except CL. And possibly pushing VE over 100 disalowing futher removal of fuel in CL.

I run the truck in completely in open loop right now, The wb was showing a constant 17-18 and surging like crazy

you say you would reduce VE by 28 %? wouldent I want to multiply the VE by 1.28 to make it richer?

I am not over 100 anywhere( highest about 80), but i may need to reach 100 to get this thing running right

If you are OL and rich, I would correct the BPC and the VE tables as well created from learns with an incorrect BPC. I assumed when you reduce BPC it will increase your values in VE tables. Do the BPC correction, leave tables alone, and do a VE Learn and see what happens.

When I said the truck is running completely rich, I meant lean, sorry about that. That is why I don't want to drive it. With just a change of the bpc, w.b. shows constant 18 and will not run without constant AE. When changing bpc, and multiplying the ve tables by the % of change, it will barely run, showing 16.5 to 17 constantly on the w.b.

I guess my question is, is there something else i should edit when changing the bpc, or should i just rich en it up and start doing learn Ve's until it is right again?

Also, could you explain the AFR vs RPM & VAC table to me? It seems like it is backwards. At 2000 rpm and 80 kpa, commanded AFR is 14.7. while 2000 rpm at 40-60 kpa where i am cruising on the highway, it is calling for 13.8 to 14.0

Wouldn't I want the rich condition during high kpa, and the 14.7 at about 40-60 kpa where you can save gas while cruising?

I have finally got my car back running, after fixing some electrical demons and now it is time to start tuning. I am wondering however if someone has a good bin to start off with for my current setup. 305 tbi with ZZ4 cam w/113 heads with ebl. I dont have the original bins that came with the ebl and I am not sure which bin to start off with from tunerpro that will get me close. I know prior to laying the car up my AE was off because i got a lean backfire when i stabbed the throttle, but my idle was rich so i am looking to get it set where idle is not rich but my WOT is good. As i said I am brand new to this so any help is appreciated

Let me know how this goes for you, I'm about to do the exact swap myself although slightly different (1.6 on the intake 1.52 on the exhaust. read sig for the rest). I'll follow this closely. I recommend starting off with some VE learns to get the fuel pretty close. Maybe someone has some "stock" ZZ4 timing tables that would work fairly well.

Sweet... Cool new firmware for the EBL v2.2d
See updates page.

does the new flash update work with the ebl classic too?

The Classic and Flash are two separate products. There is a new WUD for the Classic that is worth getting. When a Classic update is requested we send out the full EBL Classic update package. This includes the WUD, ECU/XDF, doc's, and a Window sutility to update the BIN to the latest Classic firmware.

The last firmware release for the classic is: 02/24/07 1.26

RBob.

TY RBob, got the email. I think I already have the firmwar update, I usually keep on top of the updates from you, may just need to use the WUD update.

Hey Rbob, I sent you an email for the new update, can I get it?

Just looked, that was back in mid-late May. Update was sent on the morning of 5/24. Check any spam folders that you may be using. If you can't find it let me know and I'll send it again.

Updates are typically sent out once a day. So should see it within 24 hrs of sending an email.

RBob.

No sir, I didn't see it. Can you send it again?

Sent...

RBob.

Ok Bob I got it but here's a stupid question......how do I set up the WB in the preferences again? I see the whole "user device" and "ADC Channel" set up but I'm not quite understanding the filter aspect of it. Care to explain abit?

The filter is used for smooth the response of the attached device. They are listed by response, fast being very little smoothing for a faster response.

A slow filter response is a greater level of smoothing. Which also lags the response of the device. Best is to use the fastest response that provides the required smoothness in the value.

RBob.

I figured out how to get my WB working with the update but is the filtering issue the reason why is seems that the readings on the EBL and on my WB gauge seem to be off?

It depends. If the readings lag, then yes, the filtering will do that. If during steady state the readings are different, then it is most likely due to ground offsets.

Although not having the LC-1 (or other device) set up to output the proper AFR vs. voltage will also do this.

In the case of ground offset, set up a user device to compensate.

RBob.

So finally got the camaro running pretty well, drove it around all day today, ran well, felt pretty strong. That was until a used a gtech and a made a few runs and came up with a best 7.15 sec 0-60 with a 138 hp and 186 ft lbs torque. Not sure exactly what the problem is but it doesnt feel that slow. I did a few VE learns to get the fueling better. I know there is still some tuning left in it, but what am I missing?

Ok another stupid question......How do I find out what the output is for the ZT-2?