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hmmm, I saw some setting on there. Just ended up with a problem with it (LC-1) The logworks display's the AFR right, now alll of a sudden the EBL doesn't show the right AFr, have to check my grounds! Thanx RBob, I'll have to try that setting when I get it displaying properly again.
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Well, I checked my grounds and everything and the display in the EBL for the LC-1 is WRONG!!!! The log works works fine. The EBL stays between 15.4 and 15.9 afr no matter what I do. I even too out the WB, recalled it, did the free air cal, and everything. Have the volts at 1 and 2 for 10.0 and 20.0 respectively. I must say, I am VERY disappointed in Innovate stuff right now. Ever since I got this thing I've had nothing but problems!! Anybody have any ideas?? Please!!
Double check the ADC WB channel selected for the What's Up Display. I've done this myself. If you have a data log just do a playback with the proper WB channel selected. The data will still be there.
Well, once again you're right. The surge is diminishing as the values in 20 to 35 areas in the ve are increased, I had logged so much and done so many corrections that I was really sure the whole table must be right, but evidently that part is used so briefly that no corrections were shown.(guessing here) There may have been some carry over from an article that I read suggesting cutting those areas in order to force rpm drop , but it has been a problem since go, even starting with a custom chip, Thanks, once again, Val
I know I asked this before, but about the BPC. I am using the VAFPR. It is the GM one. The BPC is @ 37.5% now. I know this is a filter to compensate for the VAFPR and it's rate of fuel pressure increase/decrease. Question I have is, if my fuel pressure changes fast with the MAP/vacuum, and I actually get the fuel fast, should this number be increased, or decreased??
I guess what I am getting it is when I move the number around, what way does what?? If I increase the percentage, does it slow down the way the ebl uses the VE/AE tables (in reference to the BPC change), or does it speed it up to more real time. Or vice versa?
The reason I ask is because I am having an issue with my AE tables, (or so I think). While driving down the highway I am monitering logworks and when I stab the gas while rolling, the AFR will dip to 9.6 -10.1 afr, then climb to 14.7 or so, unless I am in PE and it'll go to 12.8-12.9(commanded). But..., if I am from a dead stop, I stab it and it'll briefly go to 22.1(quick bog), then drop to 9.1 (sluggish now) and slowly climb to the 12.8(pulls awsome now), And it is a pig till the afr leans out to the 12.8 (PE). I did the wb VE learn before the analog outputs on the LC-1 crapped out, but when I smoothed the VE tables out in the 60-100 KPA areas it runs a little better and has a steadier AFR.
Other than the dead stop this thing is getting faster the more I get the tune straitened out. I would really like to use the n2o. I have it hooked up now. Just hope it Have it hooked the the EBL right. Anybody with the EBL use nitrous yet??
I know I asked this before, but about the BPC. I am using the VAFPR. It is the GM one. The BPC is @ 37.5% now. I know this is a filter to compensate for the VAFPR and it's rate of fuel pressure increase/decrease. Question I have is, if my fuel pressure changes fast with the MAP/vacuum, and I actually get the fuel fast, should this number be increased, or decreased??
I guess what I am getting it is when I move the number around, what way does what?? If I increase the percentage, does it slow down the way the ebl uses the VE/AE tables (in reference to the BPC change), or does it speed it up to more real time. Or vice versa?
The higher the percent, the more quickly the BPC changes with a change in Manifold pressure. A fast acting FPR will require a higher BPC Filter value.
kool, i was kinda thinking that, looking at the logworks display while changing it I can barely tell the difference in the afr.
Any thoughts on the ae?? When I driving down the highway yesterday on the way home from, I kept lowering the AE to lean it up some. It ran better. But this morning when I was doing the neighborhood drive to the highway, there wasn't enough AE, So I had to put it back to where it was. I feel like I am chasing my tail. Maybe I should lower the VE tables in the LOW rpm areas at the high MAP.
I'm thinking that you need you modify the AE vs Coolant table. The reason is that during the highway time the engine was up to temperature. Where this morning the engine was cold.
Look at the datalog from this morning and increase the AE vs CTS table in those areas. Then set whatever AE you had been changing back to leaner.
I think I'll try that out, ( AE-CTS Multiplier % correct) But I may have pulled too much TPS AE. Looking at an old log I think I should have been taking away some MAP AE during the highway driving. Seems that there is no tps AE used, just MAP when I am rolling? If I stap it from a dead stop it'll use more TPS AE?
I thought that I'd show how well things are going. Accidently tried out the 5800 rev limit in second gear today. Sure hit it fast. HAVE got to hook up the shift light. This run was earlier in the week. Knock counts are not on WOT run. I didn't fasten my seat belt and was jumping up and down.
Thanks to Rbob for his GREAT project and all the support.
Wow, your injector DC% is up there. I know mine doesn't get that high for sustained periods of time, just spikes with the initial slamming open of the throttle, then they go down in the 70's, so far.
Wow, your injector DC% is up there. I know mine doesn't get that high for sustained periods of time, just spikes with the initial slamming open of the throttle, then they go down in the 70's, so far.
You should have seen the DC before larger injectors and more fuel pressure. I still have to get the pressure up about 6-7 more psi to have it where Rbob said it would have to be. This was one of the better spots LOL. But overall much much better than when I started. The whole project has been a positive learning tool for me.
I second the whole learning tool.. Today I am changeing my torque converter to a 2200 stall, so after that is done I can get my AE close, I have to send back my LC-1 though, so more tuning will wait on the AE.
Wow, your injector DC% is up there. I know mine doesn't get that high for sustained periods of time, just spikes with the initial slamming open of the throttle, then they go down in the 70's, so far.
Thats nothing, when I first started tuning my 350 crate engine with 68# injectors and 12 psi pressure, this is what happened with mine. Static is the reason I was not accelerating.
I am having some low speed issues with my present tune.
At idle I am having to feather the throttle to keep it from stalling. Really anoying at red lights. (This comes and goes)
When I am on the highway and lift the gas there is a surge and it seems to hunt for a steady rpm. Almost rear ended a car in front of me.
This condition has gotten worse as the Learn VE is used to update the tables. Any where you guys would go with this?
Thanks
I am having some low speed issues with my present tune.
At idle I am having to feather the throttle to keep it from stalling. Really anoying at red lights. (This comes and goes)
When I am on the highway and lift the gas there is a surge and it seems to hunt for a steady rpm. Almost rear ended a car in front of me.
This condition has gotten worse as the Learn VE is used to update the tables. Any where you guys would go with this?
Thanks
Sounds like you possibly are using the IAC too much. Check the minimum air rate screw on the TBI, adjust it to about 50 RPM under your commanded idle speed with the engine hot, the IAC closed/plugged and disconnected. You want about 5-10 counts MAX on a cammed engine at idle in park/neutral.
As far as VE learn, it seems to be pretty accurate, if used on a long drive 100+ miles. Around town with 3-5 mile jumps it is not very good.
On a side note, I had the mindset from WinALDL before I started using the EBL. I found that I was using VE tables to cover inadequacies in my AE/DE.
For the highway lift issue, try disabling the DFCO. Set the temperature enable at a high value. Once things settle down and the VE is better you can try re-enabling it.
Thanks Fast355 I reset the IAC and adjusted idle, seems to have resolved the Idle issue, Why didn't I think of doing this before I don't know.
I will try the DFCO disable on the next bin RBob. Again thanks
for the help.
Would you care to elaborate on the PE controls in EBL. If I understand correctly, these controls will richen commanded AFR when in PE mode. So if I went a particular AFR, these controls will modify that AFR unless I set them to zero. Correct?
Would you care to elaborate on the PE controls in EBL. If I understand correctly, these controls will richen commanded AFR when in PE mode. So if I went a particular AFR, these controls will modify that AFR unless I set them to zero. Correct?
I do know that you can set the PE a little leaner than normal and after a set period of time, it decays richer. I think mine decays 1 full point from 13.5 down to 12.5. Can't remember how long it takes to get there.
On a side note, I miss the command air/fuel ratio displayed in the first dataloging program vs. wideband.
The PE AFR is a set value. The table is by RPM, and is the commanded AFR while in PE mode. Then the AFR decay over time. That can be adjusted by the amount of AFR change along with how long it takes.
The intent of the PE AFR decay is to help in cooling the engine during prolonged acceleration.
Sorry for straying from the PE guys, but just had a quick question. The EBL has the provisions for a valet mode, but how does one utilize it?? Do I have to rig a switch somehow into the EBL, or on the PROM, to get it to work?? Or Do I have to burn a VALET chip, and use that when i want to use the VALET mode?
The EBL has the provisions for a valet mode, but how does one utilize it??
It's a secret, otherwise all the Valets would know how to bypass it
{edit: flip the option bit to enable valet mode. Default is now the valet mode with the rpm & mph spark retard and fuel cut. To bypass it hold the pedal to the metal and then key on, once you start to crank lift foot off the pedal. There is an ADC count for the TPS that needs to be exceeded to bypass the valet mode. This may need to be adjusted.}
The PE AFR is a set value. The table is by RPM, and is the commanded AFR while in PE mode. Then the AFR decay over time. That can be adjusted by the amount of AFR change along with how long it takes.
The intent of the PE AFR decay is to help in cooling the engine during prolonged acceleration.
RBob.
RBob,
So should we set it up for acceleration aside from WOT and 1/4 runs?
So should we set it up for acceleration aside from WOT and 1/4 runs?
I would. A nice aspect of this feature is that the richer AFR is slowly decayed back out. When not in PE mode it is decayed in the opposite direction. This way a quick lift and stomp back down doesn't clear the enrichment.
And the enrichment doesn't stick. After enough no-PE time the enrichment starts new.
I finally worked up the nerve to install an LC 1,and of course have some lingering confusion(large surprise to all, I'm sure). The LC 1 has two analog outputs, a brown #2 that Innovate says is programed to 1v-2v, indicating 7.35-22.39 AFR. And a yellow, #1. I gather that either can be programed to read as needed, which would be prefered to hook to the EBL? There is some hinting that a person could send one output to the ecm, taking the place of the narrow band, I guess that it would go in on the old o2 wire. Is there a better or prefered route to take here? How should a person attempt to program the outputs to read? I currently have #1 connected to #7 on the EBl, white and green connected to the EBL ground,have not yet started vehicle, but have done free air calibration... does this make sense?Thanks, Val
Connecting the white & green grounds to the EBL is correct. With the blue ground going to the chassis or engine block.
As for which analog out to use for the EBL and stock NB input. Set the programming to the factory defaults. Then check to see which one resembles the NB voltage (the document shows that one in the programming pic). Use that to go to the ECM. Personally, I'd rather use a stock NB for the ECM. If you only have one location for an O2, then use the simulated output. From the LC-1 manual this appears to be analog out 1, which is the yellow wire.
For the EBL WB input it doesn't matter which channel is used. Just be sure to select the correct one in the What's Up Display preferences.
Then select the Innovate 0-5V output (preferences) and reprogram the LC-1 output. From the programming display select analog 2 output, check 'use AFR', then in the boxes place:
Thanks for your info, I did weld in another bung, so I think what your prefered method is to retain the NB to feed the ECM, and use WB analog out #2 to connect to EBL? ( or change the #1 program and use it) The outcome being to run from the NB output, log and learn from the WB? Got the update disc after I asked the last set of questions and wonder if the reprogram mentioned on the disc for improved WB is the same, that is 0v= 10 AFR, 5v=20AFR. Thanks again, and my compliments to you on a job well done and your continuing efforts.Val
Last edited by Val Snyder; 06-25-2006 at 09:51 PM.
Yes, for the ECM I would use the stock NB. Doesn't matter which LC-1 output is used as the WB. As you noticed the upgrade includes the 0-5V Innovate input. I would use this over the 1 - 2 V Innovate input. Much more accurate. The re-program is the same as I mentioned on the upgrade CD.
The reason Innovate has the 1 - 2 volt output is for people using a DVM to read the output. 1 v being 10:1, 2 v being 20:1, then everything in between. Such as 1.47 v being 14.7:1 Easy to read and understand at a glance. Not good for accurate data logging.
Thanks for your info, I did weld in another bung, so I think what your prefered method is to retain the NB to feed the ECM, and use WB analog out #2 to connect to EBL? ( or change the #1 program and use it) The outcome being to run from the NB output, log and learn from the WB? Got the update disc after I asked the last set of questions and wonder if the reprogram mentioned on the disc for improved WB is the same, that is 0v= 10 AFR, 5v=20AFR. Thanks again, and my compliments to you on a job well done and your continuing efforts.Val
Val,
If you are using the WB output for Learn VE, just a reminder to run O/L setting the BLM/INT min-max to 128. And disable Hiway mode.
First, thanks for the WB logging tips, when using the WB to do a learn are the VE corrections made to 14.7 or the specified AFR in the AFR vs CTS+ VAC table? Man, is there ever a spread between the NB O2 and the reported WB AFR, 637mv from the NB is showing as 14.7 on WB. The tune is progressing, but the VE table is lookin rather weird. Checked the headers to see if they were loose and leaking again, but couldn't get any more on the bolts but will run over the flange area with a piece of tube to see if any leaks can be heard,been awhile since they were pulled and surfaced(looked like JBA had a drunk do it with a belt sander,out .035 between #3 and#5)Thanks, Val
When using the WB to learn, the WB reported AFR is compared to the commanded AFR. The commanded being from the table you mention: AFR vs CTS & VAC. The VE table is adjusted accordingly.
Once the VE table gets close start looking at the AE. Can use the performance graphing function to look at various areas. Check what the WB shows as the throttle is opened. On quick throttle openings it is normal to have a quick lean spike.
After that check how far rich (or lean) the AFR goes. I like to do a file dump (from the Analysis screen) and open that in notepad. Then look at graphs for AE information. The .EBL dump file has the TPS% and MAP rows used during AE (dTPS & dMAP).
With the AE adjusted the VE Learn will create a smoother table.
I have a question on hooking up a shift light to the EBL. I have set the shift point to 2k to be able to check it easier and the WUD shows it working.
However after hooking up an LED as in the EBL information document I am not having any luck with it. I have it hooked up to A3 grn/yel from the ecm and the other side to ground. With zero experience with LED's do they have a certain polarity? Also do they come in different voltage ranges?
Thanks for clearing that up,it is really great to have someone to answer questions like this as I tend to get hung up on the oh hell, what does that use to change this? (dog chasing tail for far too long) don't think AE has come into play yet,(haven't seen it active in the logs) but probably will as the fuel tables continue to refine. Wish I did the WB a year ago. The engine is liking the changes so far, maybe I'll get the pig up to 18 mpg, no valves out the tailpipe yet! Thanks, Val
Has anyone yet requested to have the Knock counts put into the Dump File?
I'd like to see when the Knock is occuring, i.e. on Decel.
Also, for some reason my Commanded AFR in the bin for PE is not agreeing with what is displayed in the Dump File. It used to and I haven't changed ADC Channels, just versions of WUD.
Has anyone yet requested to have the Knock counts put into the Dump File?
I'd like to see when the Knock is occuring, i.e. on Decel.
Also, for some reason my Commanded AFR in the bin for PE is not agreeing with what is displayed in the Dump File. It used to and I haven't changed ADC Channels, just versions of WUD.
I had thought that Knock was in the dump file, but, it isn't. I'll add that in, should have both counts and the SA retard.
The commanded AFR is what the ECM is commanding for the PW calculation. With the addition of the IAT I'll bet the WB reported AFR is a tad richer then before. Just need to work the VE table back in.
RBob.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val Snyder
Thanks for clearing that up,it is really great to have someone to answer questions like this as I tend to get hung up on the oh hell, what does that use to change this? (dog chasing tail for far too long) don't think AE has come into play yet,(haven't seen it active in the logs) but probably will as the fuel tables continue to refine. Wish I did the WB a year ago. The engine is liking the changes so far, maybe I'll get the pig up to 18 mpg, no valves out the tailpipe yet! Thanks, Val
I am thinking that with AE you are thinking of WOT or PE mode. AE is acceleration enrichment or in the carb world: pump shot. This (AE) comes into affect often.
Once tuned up I think that you will be surprised with the MPG. The EBL code does run smoother and better then the stock stuff. Only need to keep the foot out of it (tough to do).
RBob.
Last edited by RBob; 07-06-2006 at 09:11 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
I had thought that Knock was in the dump file, but, it isn't. I'll add that in, should have both counts and the SA retard.
The commanded AFR is what the ECM is commanding for the PW calculation. With the addition of the IAT I'll bet the WB reported AFR is a tad richer then before. Just need to work the VE table back in.
RBob.
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RBob,
The Commanded AFR is also different (richer) than what is in bin. But you are correct. The reported AFR is now richer as well.
PE mode AFR (from your previous to this post) is interesting. When in PE mode the ECM will use the richer of the two values: open loop AFR or the PE AFR. The PE AFR also as the decay over time. As the ECM is in PE mode the AFR will enrich.
The open loop AFR is also adjusted by the startup fuel. This is an AFR reduction based on engine temperature. This enrichment gets decayed out over time.
With this both of these values (Open Loop & PE AFR) can be changing over time. And, the ECM can switch between them while in PE mode.
PE mode AFR (from your previous to this post) is interesting. When in PE mode the ECM will use the richer of the two values: open loop AFR or the PE AFR. The PE AFR also as the decay over time. As the ECM is in PE mode the AFR will enrich.
The open loop AFR is also adjusted by the startup fuel. This is an AFR reduction based on engine temperature. This enrichment gets decayed out over time.
With this both of these values (Open Loop & PE AFR) can be changing over time. And, the ECM can switch between them while in PE mode.
RBob.
RBob,
Should I remove any of the PE adders that are in the bin then? Or modify the VE table to take the adders into account?
If I understand the question: change the VE table so that the WB reported AFR matches the commanded AFR. This testing/adjusting should be done with the engine at normal operating temperature.
Using the IAT in the PW calculation is why the AFR went a little richer.
hmmm, I saw some setting on there. Just ended up with a problem with it (LC-1) The logworks display's the AFR right, now alll of a sudden the EBL doesn't show the right AFr, have to check my grounds!
Thanx RBob, I'll have to try that setting when I get it displaying properly again. 
yepper, done that, I even tried moving it to different channels. no difference. I'm stuck now. Anybody?? thanx rbob
While driving down the highway I am monitering logworks and when I stab the gas while rolling, the AFR will dip to 9.6 -10.1 afr, then climb to 14.7 or so, unless I am in PE and it'll go to 12.8-12.9(commanded). But..., if I am from a dead stop, I stab it and it'll briefly go to 22.1(quick bog), then drop to 9.1 (sluggish now) and slowly climb to the 12.8(pulls awsome now), 
And it is a pig till the afr leans out to the 12.8 (PE). I did the wb VE learn before the analog outputs on the LC-1 crapped out, but when I smoothed the VE tables out in the 60-100 KPA areas it runs a little better and has a steadier AFR. 
