kevm14

My god. If he's going static at 2000 rpm, then I have so many questions...

Cflick

Depends on many things I don't know, which is why that would be one of the first things I'd be looking at.
Maybe he's not. Maybe his BPC ( or other things ) is off that far. Or, maybe he's running out of fuel, in which case any other tweek won't matter anyway.

kevm14

I wasn't disagreeing with your diagnostic approach. Just exclaiming that I hope he's not going static at 2000 rpm.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

IFK I'll look at the log that day and my bpc is calculated from the ebl utility only thing I can think is that cfm tech sent me the wrong (smslker ) size injectors ... And the way I got a learn at 2000rpm 90 map was with my foot on the brake pedal

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow 175 cc heads, 4.10 gears, lots of suspension upgrades......... 24mpg @ 2300rpm hwy 65mph ........ 8.63@ 85mph 1/8th on street tires... 8.000's soon

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

How much power is a acdelco factory TPI pump good for ? And how much psi ? I'm set at 30osi WOT with areomotive 13301 vrfpr .. Running a autometer electronic FP gauge with transducer right before the fuel enters the TBI .... Supposed to b 68# flow matched injectors ... Fuel pump, gauge, injectors , tb, regulator, fuel filter all about a year old

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow 175 cc heads, 4.10 gears, lots of suspension upgrades......... 24mpg @ 2300rpm hwy 65mph ........ 8.63@ 85mph 1/8th on street tires... 8.000's soon

ownor

iTrader: (5)

if i'm not mistaken the TPI pump tops out somewhere around 350 horses? what's your electronic FP gauge/transducer reporting then, i assume you checked the reading already to make sure it's not the pump? what's the actual p/n on the injectors?

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Well I don't think it matters for awhile something is wrong with it ... Aing for the time right now to figure out what yet as I have a lot of work to do on a customers K5 blazer 400 SB

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow 175 cc heads, 4.10 gears, lots of suspension upgrades......... 24mpg @ 2300rpm hwy 65mph ........ 8.63@ 85mph 1/8th on street tires... 8.000's soon

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Your fuel transducer should be installed in one of the 3 inlet ports on the 13301. Not before the injectors.

kevm14

Speaking of, does this look to be any good?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pressure-transducer-or-sender-100-psi-stainless-steel-for-oil-fuel-air-water-/261260635816?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cd458eea8&vxp=mtr
Linear 0.5-4.5V over 100psi...price is right.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Not sure how accurate other sensors and in specific other pressure transducers are reading, but 2% over the whole range is not that exact imho, that's +-1 psi.. might be still close enough tho? anyways the voltage range sounds good as all other fuel pressure transducers are typically 0.5-4.5V as well.

Cflick

Depends if it'll give you the resolution you want at your operating pressure.
Personally, I like a sensor that's good for about 10% more than the max I could ever see, even if something broke. As such, a 50 PSI oil pressure sender works just fine for me, albeit it's a good deal more than the +10% I like on my rig. Because I run 24PSI fuel, a 30 PSI sensor would be my "off the shelf" ideal.
The closer to the limit of the sensor you run, the higher resolution you get, though not necessarily accuracy. If the precision is there, I don't care about accuracy. I'll calibrate it myself anyway. OTOH, if the precision and resolution are there, that's really all that's important.

kevm14

The 292 w/ turbo will probably need well into the 30s and maybe even 40s, so 50 psi COULD work. Does anyone know of a gauge that reads 0-5V linear?

We're going to try the eBay transducer, connected to EBL, to see what it does. For $18, it's easier just to try it.

whatif3387

Earlier today I was doing some idle tuning. I decided I wanted to try tuning the idle in closed loop again. I set the closed loop CTS threshold where it should be and tried checking and unchecking the opidle Flag and for some reason it wouldn't idle in closed loop. CL would enable if I gave it any gas but as soon as It dropped back to idle it went to open loop again. Any suggestions on what could be causing this? I'm running a 3 wire heated NB to btw..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

O2 sensor is inactive, may need a heated one (AFS-74).

RBob.

88_GTA_TA

I have been trying to do VE learns for a while now (off and on due to working away from home) and I have done some 35 learns and flashes. But the learns constantly over correct. Some times it will come close. Where corrections are only 3-5. But when flashed to the ecm the next learn off in the other direction by quite a bit. The AFR goes from rich on one run. Then once corrections are flashed in, it will run lean. Then rich after the next flash, and on it goes.

I am wondering if the bpc is wrong. I have it set at 127 bpc.

The engines specs are:
350 TPI
36lb injectors
Stock fuel pressure (which I believe to be 36psi)
Running a ProCharger
LC1 WB

The ProCharger is irrelevant as I have not done any driving under boost. I will wait till I have the vacuum area under control.

Anyone have any suggestions ?

CORV3TT3

Being new to EBL myself... one thing I have noticed is the importance of the car being warm during the VE session. Are your VE learn sessions when the car would be able to enter closed loop or already in closed loop?

I usually let my car warm up in the driveway and then drive it down the road a bit. It runs fairly cold anyway- so it needs the warm up and a short run before my sessions are the best for tuning.

Also- how big are the changes between your rich and lean learns- a little or a lot? What is your cAFR? Is it between high 13s-and low 15s or is it lower or higher? Low 13s are more on the rich side and 15s are more on the lean side- and the closer you get to mid 14 the more on target you are. I know that is something you probably already know... but I personally second guess myself sometimes and really small changes "seem" huge in my head.


FWI... I started with a massively rich of VE table and have been working my way to a good tune myself. I also have a bigger cam, larger injectors, different intake, etc over stock. I have maybe 15 VE sessions into my tune and I have added in fuel once.

88_GTA_TA

Haven't taken to much notice of the cAFR, only WB. I mainly look at the AFR gauge I have mounted in the car. One run it will sit around 10-13 AFR. Then after flashing it will go to around 14-16. Sometimes it get as high as 19.? and low as 10.? .
Then are times it gets close (hovering around 13.5-14.9) then after flashing it will be way out again.

I just seem to be going around in circles.

I have it at operating temp and in open loop. Have done very long runs (80km) and short (5km). Even at idle the AFR changes from lean to rich between flashes.

CORV3TT3

Is that WB a stand alone or connected to the WUD? Are you using the NB for the VE learns?

My experience with aftermarket guages is that depending on the manufacturer, the harness, etc that it could be off. I have also heard horror stories about WB sensors that weren't very good.

Back to the device- if it is hooked to the WUD... is it supported and is it configured properly?


When last time you checked it?

Something seems like it isn't operating properly and the ECM is trying to compensate for things... problems with fuel pressure could do this.

False air with a MAF could do that too. Or a vacuum leak. Bad IAC too- had that happen to me very recently.

88_GTA_TA

Yes, the WB is connected to the EBL and the in car gauge. Both the WUD and the in car gauge display the same reading (+/-0.2). The EBL is configured to learn from the WB.
Corrections range from +/-12 to +/-2.

Have never checked FP. Just got the pressure from the workshop manual.
I do have a FP gauge but have never connected it up. Might have to hook it up and check it tomorrow.

I use MAP and the IAT looks to read good. IAC opens and closes with temp and kicks in as stall saver when running lean at idol.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

What exactly are your coolant temps reading when the corrections are that far apart? You can't program the EBL to correct between 160 and 220 degrees, the corrections will constantly change substantially when the engine and air temps increase too much. You need to target a window based on your thermostat and fan settings, and keep your air temps as close to ambient as possible. My correction was set between 160 and 190 degrees because the engine never see's beyond that. To give you an example, once the engine reaches close to 220 degrees from 190, the O2 correction will be extremely substantial due to the increasingly less dense air,and if you flash and save that based on 220 degrees, then you will be lean at 190 degrees...

Cflick

First thing I'd do, is reconnect the narrow band, ( in the stock location ) and run a BLM learn.
Why ?
Because the two major things you need to narrow down first, is the O2 sensor wrong, or is the fueling not what the EBL thinks it is.
If the NB shows the same wild over-corrections, then your WB is probably OK. Start looking to injector settings. Re-calc the BPC, measure fuel pressure, look at injector compensations, proportional gains, etc.
If the NB does not show the same over-corrections, then look at the WB hard. Exhaust leaks can ruin your whole day !

As I think about it.....
Run a learn, over some distance. DO NOT FLASH IT ! ( or go ahead and flash it in one of the other bin spaces, but don't run it )
Re-run the same course, under pretty much the same conditions.
Are the two learns roughly the same, or do they show wild differences ? ( they should be roughly the same. If not, then you can't trust either one )
Consistency is your friend !

Dominic Sorresso

If you've covered this, please ignore, but what about your ground for the EBL and the WB? When I was using EBL sometime ago, I finally separated the ECM ground from the sensor ground. My TPS readings were becoming erratic. Like a dope, I had thought a ground was a ground RIGHT??
isn't it?

Cflick

"That there bolt connects to the engine, and it's ground !"
Oh, really ? Any paint under that bolt ? How about a gasket somewhere ?

Dominic makes a really good point, especially in a vehicle with so many plastic parts, painted connections, corrosion, and other nasties to get in the way.

There are only two rules about ground.
1. The only ground is the ground under your feet !
2. If one ground is good, two is not necessarily better.
The corollary for #2 is that if one ground is not good, then two *might* be better.

88_GTA_TA

This morning I installed the FP gauge and found that the pressure was no where near what I thought it was. At 0 vac it was 55 psi and at idle it was around 40 psi.
So I have adjusted the BPC vs VAC table to suit the corresponding fuel pressures according to EBL Utility and now a 12% correction to the VE table doesn't make it go way past ideal AFR as it was doing. Now learns are going well.

Thank you all for the support and ideas I have received.

Another question about FP. Would I be better off to disconnect the vac line from the FP regulator to have a constant FP regardless of MAP?

Cflick

The purpose of variable fuel pressure is to overcome range limitations of the injectors.
If they stay below about 85% at the highest fuel demand, yet remain above zero or 1% at idle, then it's whatever suits you.
Out of control at the high end, all sorts of bad things can happen.
Out of control at the low end, you stall, either from flooding, or no fuel at all.

88_GTA_TA

Ok then, I will leave it as is for now.
Thanks.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Those readings are impossible, something is wrong. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is about 14.7 psi, so unless that engine is pulling an absolute vacuum, the fuel pressure can't drop 15 psi when the vacuum line is reconnected.

RBob.

88_GTA_TA

I rechecked with the PF gauge today and found that when at idle, WUD showed 35kpa and reading was 43-44psi. Then disconnected vacuum line and reading was 55psi.
The previous post I had to estimate idle psi as the engine was surging at idle (due to idling very lean) and revs were bouncing up and down. Therefore making the reading bounce up and down.

Idles smooth now and learns are going great!

kevm14

I was going to say to consider IAT flucuation (and to consider an IAT) but I see you had an FPR problem.

Cflick

deleted

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Street Lethal posts:
Than just seems to be a good idea. I think I go CL at 155dF and that may be too low but may save gas.

Does EBL afford the ability to narrow this window? If so what is the table called?

Also what is the table called that modifies BPW based on coolant temp(not IAT) in CL?

kevm14

Depending on state of tune, you could go CL a lot sooner than 155°F. I go in the 124 range on my L05 (AFS-74).

The window you are referring to, do you mean while VE learning? If so, the Preferences window of the WUD has what you need.

As far as I know, there is no BPC vs CTS table for closed loop. Your control over fueling in CL as a function of CTS is really in the IAT/CTS blend table, which I believe is using speed density math based on your selected blend of CTS and IAT (which should theoretically mimic the influence of IAT on actual intake manifold temps across the airflow range). You can't arbitrarily skew the formula to say more or less BPC for a given CTS, if that's what you're asking.

Are you trying to influence BLMs at a certain CTS? If so, I'm not sure what to really suggest, other than tune VE for warmed up conditions. Then I'd use CTS/IAT blending vs airflow to tweak further, particularly to get the BLMs closer to 128 under different CTS/IAT conditions. If BLMs are way off at cold CTS, I suppose the advice would be to delay CL until warmer CTS. Or maybe there's a way to adjust O2 swing thresholds vs CTS (or at least cold vs hot). I don't know of anything though.

Cflick

For me, the engine normally runs 194-198F, so for running a VELearn, I use a temp threshold of 190F.
Otherwise, I set the CL threshold rather low. 105F. Of course, the over-all tune is fairly close, so it works. ( with some pretty wide BLM swings )
Testing, ( OK, playing ) I've set the CL threshold below ambient, so that the ECM goes into CL as soon as choke decays out. Set that way, tip-in is unpredictably rough, and the BLM swings will hit the limits, but otherwise it works OK. Again, with the over-all tune fairly close.
In any case, being cognizant of things like oil flow, I do try to avoid loading the engine until the temp is fairly close to normal operating range.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Yes I was refering to Learns based on a window of coolant temp. So the WU provides that window. I did not recall seeing a window in myxdf so asked the question.Not much time tese days to tune. Fortunately ther car runs pretty smooth.

I have no coolant to my intake. Fortunately it is holley projection where runners are not that long and TB is rather close due to heads(RPM) to intake. I am going to a port fuel World single plane with large runners and 4B TB(1000) will be sitting higher now. I am thinking it is possible to be CL on coolant(155d-170d) yet a cold intake so IAT/Coolant table blend change in values may be a good idea. Or maybe the IAT temps will control nicely? I am using stock L03 values now. Does anyone see a value in doing this and if so which way to move tables?

kevm14

If your intake runs rather cold, I'd think a pretty heavy bias toward IAT would be exactly what you need. The thing is, you can find out experimentally. Just look at BLM swings under different IAT and CTS conditions and tweak accordingly. The logic would be something like:
- If lean when cold, increase IAT bias at those airflow ranges, which means you'll want data at different airflow ranges, which comes from the log
- If rich when cold, decrease IAT bias
- If IAT gets heat soaked, and you go rich, increase IAT bias again
- If IAT gets heat soaked and you go lean, decrease IAT bias

Generally these should not be conflicting but if BLM swings during warmup, I don't see a problem with that if drivability is acceptable, and as long as it's not at the rich/lean limits.

My preference is to use the bias tables to ensure stable BLMs on a fully warmed up engine, but across a variety of IAT conditions (from winter to traffic heat soak). Whatever happens when colder is mostly out of your hands and you hope that the amount of IAT bias you added to do what I just mentioned pushes your warmup BLMs in the right direction.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Increase bias means increase the value in table? IE. move to a higher decimal value say from .80 (current value) to .85 (new value) to achieve as a %(.85/.90=1.06) for entire table?

My car is a warm weather car but here in WI that means 40dF to 90dF ambinet.

kevm14

No, from memory the represents % CTS contribution. The rest is IAT contribution. So 0.85 would mean the air density is calculated using 85% CTS temp and 15% IAT temp, blended together in a weighted fashion. Therefore, to increase the IAT bias, you'd decrease the number. Going by 5% (0.05) at a time is probably acceptable. Take note of the airflow ranges when doing it (check logs).

All it really means is if you have hot coolant, the calculation would normally suggest less air density and give you less fuel. But if your IATs are low, the air may be more dense than the computer expects. So if you've tuned your VE, then it gets colder out, and suddenly your BLMs are rising, you would increase the IAT influence (by decreasing the value in the table) because, clearly, IAT has more influence on the air density. That is assuming no other variables changed...

So EBL allows you to say, at a given airflow, that your IAT has "15%" influence on the actual air density/temp as it enters the cylinder. The airflow matters because higher airflow usually means less temp increase inside the intake tract itself. I ended up with something like 80% CTS at low airflows and 85% everywhere else, but I think I documented that either in this thread or elsewhere. I can check. That was on an inline 6, non-heated manifold. Your mileage may vary.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Makes sense. thanks.

My observation at low rpms minmal load with higher coolant temps 195+ and driving I often see my A/F go lean on WB and most likely high BLM and VE adds fuel when I am in L.
Possible reasons are:

1. intake tract heated and less dense air not being sufficiently biased in IAT vs coolant table.
2. my cam specs are 224/230 .05 114 LSA so possible lack of vac and fuel falls out of atomization. No fix for that other than OL at lower speeds.

Seem plausible?

kevm14

If your intake was heating the air more than the ECM knew about, that would cause less dense air than the ECM knew about, which should show up as a rich condition (or low BLM). That could be too much IAT biasing at that airflow range, assuming your IATs are low under these conditions. What is it set to now, and what are your IATs under those conditions?

It's just a weighted average as far as I've read, so any IAT under your CTS temp will cause the calculated air density to increase, which becomes an increasing influence the more you bias to the IAT. That leads to enriched fueling.

A real simple example as I understand it would be: say you had a CTS of 200°F and an IAT of 100°F. At 100% CTS in that table, the speed density fueling calc takes 200°F air. At a 0% CTS in that table, which translates to 100% IAT bias, the speed density calc would use 100°F air. Likewise, 50% CTS would use 150°F air in the calcs. We have no idea what's happening inside so we have to guess from the BLM behavior under varying IAT conditions (set everything else constant if possible).

The bottom line is you want the ECM to be as smart as possible calculating air density, and how much your IAT influences your air density in the cylinder is dependent upon your individual configuration. The goal is to do the best we can at A) IAT placement and B) filling out that table.

whatif3387

I decided to try doing some closed loop ve learns today and also see how well it would idle in closed loop. While it cruised very smoothly once the engine was fully warmed up from driving upon returning to my home it wouldnt idle it would stall instantly and upon restarting it would instantly stall again. When I switched back to open loop it would idle fine with the exception of my IAC counts which were around 30. I don't understand this since when I set it last week it idled at 5-10 counts in openloop when warm. It's much cooler today then a few weeks ago I know that the temp can mess with things. How much of an improvement would I see by adding an IAT sensor. Is it something that would help me stop chasing my tail with idle and cold idle?

CORV3TT3

TT-1 install...

Four out of the five seems pretty obvious in terms of what to do with them.

The orange wire... how have you guys connected this?

ownor

iTrader: (5)

that one would typically go to one of EBL's ADC ports. also not sure if you'd want to use the simulated NB wire or just use your existing standard NB O2.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

Any chances of a ebl flash. Group buy for 2014

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This, except it is best to retain the stock NB for the ECM's closed loop function. Here is more info on setting up the ADC Channels:

http://www.dynamicefi.com/ADC_Connect.php

I tend toward using channel 0 for a WB, makes it easy to remember.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Knew it was just a matter of time before the wideband O2 sensor would essentially go again running this much overlap in the camshaft as well as being in its' closer than normal location. I stopped doing VE Learns, mainly because of the camshaft, just did enough Learns to give me a base from which to work with and went from there. IAC steps are finally down to 50, and that's the lowest I think I will see with a stock throttle body and enormous cam. Had the car out this past weekend and the engine has been running like a freaking top, extremely crisp, off idle is excellent, but the data from the WUD looked a little weird so I did a quick Learn just to see what it wanted to do on its' own. It started pulling a lot of fuel throughout, and after the Learn, the engine was now shuttering and popping in the exhaust very badly. Looked over at the wideband gauge, held the throttle, and the gauge continously read 14.7, which is the default, so O2 is clearly shot. Next cam will have hardly any overlap. Gotta love those $150.00 replacement wideband sensors (just the sensor) from autometer, too, sigh...

bphage

Okay finally back to some tuning; thanks to Rbob. So I have the same 350 tpi auto that i now have a new FPR in place and replaced the fuel injectors with siemens deka 60lb injectors - I did adjust the battery voltage table (I attached the spreadsheet I used if anyone else wants to use it)

Anyhow, clearly the injectors were crap as the car now runs a ton better but I am confused by some of the things i am seeing. FYI, I could not find my fuel pressure gauge and I am intentionally trying to set the fuel pressure as low as possible to keep the flow from the aeromotive pump in its sweet spot. Though I suspect my FPR has the fuel pressure slightly higher than where it was because I had to put the screw lower as I found it was about to fall out as set on my last FPR. At my previous FP the 60lb injectors would act as 61lbs so that is what I entered into the EBL.

Interestingly the car was running lean with the last good tune, so today I did a bunch of WB VE learns increasing the VE and at about 3000 RPM in 1st gear the WB is still reading about 15.5:1 or so with the VE table in those cells at 100% and with a 7% DC???? (I posted a WUD Snap shot during the VE learn prior to increasing to 100% VE) I suspect it has something to do with the fuel injector pressure and how much fuel the computer thinks it is giving but I certainly should not be able to max out my VE and be lean with 60lb injectors and no turbo. So now what?

My second Q: Think I answered this: They more or less agree, the car wouldn't go CL with the hood up but with the hood down it reached temp and I was reading the graph wrong. over ~450 is rich and less is lean so wb and NB both say rich. Did a NB tune after and it seems to want to pull more fuel out than the WB last time this gave me some lean surg so I will play it out some but I might just need a heated O2

Okay I also noticed the huge difference in WB vs NB voltage; I changed the NB O2 sensor with my tear down of the TPI... I searched posts and found that plenty of people had no problems with a particular Bosch sensor and the Edelbrock TES headers I have. I also know I have a small exhaust leak in the passenger header which is where the WB sensor is; whereas the NB is in the drivers side. I suspect I need a heated NB O2 sensor... what do you guys think? I believe the WB as I was getting lean surge and as it brought the AFR down the car ran better.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Change the 0 volt entry of the offset table to the same value that is at 12.8 volts. This is done to cover the case of a missing voltage reading to the ECM.

As for the VE% hitting 100, go back to the BIN before you did any VE Learns. Then adjust the fuel injector flow rate in the BIN until the BLMs fall into place. They won't be perfect, just need them in the ball park.

Then do VE Learns to round it out.

RBob.

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

hi guys my car seems to be running pretty good...but im having issues when cold starts...when I let the car sit for few days...I have to crank it several times before it starts....I think it needs lil more fuel when cold...what table should I increase?

bphage

Brilliant, change made.

Sweet, I looked at the old bin at idle vs the new bin and noted a 20% difference in VE so I lowered the injector by that amount to 49lb which would suggest I only have like 30 psi behind my injectors... I really need to find that pressure gauge as I doubt it is really that low. Anyhow, It fired right up and I did a good VE learn using the WB. It is idling great right now - I might even see if I can lower the idle speed some.

I was hoping anyone would take a look at how the VE curve is turning out - I highlighted the points that were learned in. I think I can flatten the lower part of the VE curve now - I wasn't sure if you guys just change the VE to "0" in those cells to flatten it out or do you take the lowest VE and change all those points to match the lowest VE. Alson, I am not sure what you guys would due with the unlearned area under high load and low RPM. I eventually need to find some steep hills but would anyone try and rough that area in some? There also seems to be a bit of a wave in the center of the curve... is that normal or suggest a problem? Anyhow I think I am look for reassurance at this point that it is going the right direction from someone who knows more about it than I do. Thanks all.

Cflick

Pressure is pressure.
Stick a tire gauge on the shrader valve somewhere on the fuel rail.
It'll be as accurate as your tire gauge is / can be.
Obviously, you can't leave it there.
Point being, if your tire gauge says 20, it's lower than you think, but if it says about what you think it ought to be, there's a high likelihood that it really is what you think.