Nomar116

I didnt at all appreciate having my topic closed. I was not "prom begging" I was simply hoping I could get some sort of starting ground for comparison from my stock chip, to a successful chip on my motor. I feel my numbers are WAY off and was hoping that someone would be willing to help in a simple way, sharing a custom bin. Honestly, I have found this forum to be relatively difficult to use. I am a huge fan or the Corvette Forum, where the people are able to give answers to any question asked, whether it could be looked up in a buried text file somewhere on the net or not.
The fact is guys, Ive invested nearly $300 in software and hardware alone to tune this equipment, and although for many of you thats not alot, for a HS student and part time salesperson it can be. Not to mention the fact that I just finished my first engine rebuild and am trying to get the car running correctly. I have been sent through so many loops, and been forced to read so many articles its ridiculous. Now Im sure a moderator could close this thread, they could even ban my name. However, Im not trying to insult the forum, just tring to make a point. I have recieved the "Read Traxions Intro" More times than I could count. I have read anything I can get my hands on. But sometimes it requires a person to person conversation, discussing unique situations and settings and variables to come to a working conclusion. Otherwise only headache and frustration will result. I didn't intend to prom beg, simply was looking for help I was unable to recieve. If I have a question as to just what is causing my BLMs to go to 108, I get referred to an article, or worse yet just plain no response. Sure others have asked that, but maybe not, "what harm could this cause in daily driving around town, stop and go, for a thousand miles? Am I at risk?" I just want to point this out, in the hopes that in the near future Im going to be able to get productive info from this forum, with out being accused of prom begging or lack of research. Don't assume that just because someone can't figure something out, they havn't researched enough. Sometimes they've looked in all the wrong places, or more often than not they've found AN answer, but its not really what they're looking for. Again I dont want a flame, I dont want to upset those that I am counting on 110% to guide me in tuning my car, all I want to do is explain my side of the story.

As for the "piracy" I suppose not the place, nor the people. I am dropping yet another $100+ tomorrow to purchase everything from tunercat in the hopes that with this, the pocket programmer, the Datamaster, the AKM cable, the blank proms, the eraser and so much more, Im going to be able to get my problems solved and move on.

------------------
90 Red Convertible
100k running great
ZAINO!!!
383 Stroked.... LT4 Hot Cam... Forged Elgen Pistons Scat 9000 Crank Elgen 5.7" rods New Lifters w/ 1.6 Rockers and hardened Pushrods Super Ram Intake Hooker Headers and Y pipe into Gutted Cat with Monza Mufflers (WAY TO LOUD!!) Adj Regulator K&N Shift Kit High stall converter 160 termo, ZR1 Rims.... Red Calipers....Alpine head unit, Kenwood 6x9 4 ways, Polk DX 6 1/2 compnents, MTX 240 amp, Viper 550 alarm,


www.corvetteforum.net/c4/nomar116/

Nomar116

Ahhh... Im beginning to wish I hadnt posted this or maybe that I could delte it (it wont let me ). I really dont want a flame and really dont mean to be pissing any members off. It is how Ive fealt as of late, but at the same time Ive gotten help from the board and am really counting on everyones help in the future... I dont want anyone to feel this is directed at them, just that Im a voice I think is commonly silenced throughout this DIY Prom forum... Ive heard it before and figured I wanted to say something I hope no one holds anything against me tho............

JPrevost

Do what I do, I dove right in head first. I got my stuff, had a plan, tought myself basically. If you post GOOD questions that haven't been answered a thousand times you will get more replies.
Grumpy is way helpful but you have to understand that these guys have been doing this stuff and helping people for SUCH a long time and have gotten little in return. This is a help forum so I agree, there should be more help but maybe there just isn't enough members that know the correct answers.
Don't get frustrated, get even. Do yourself a big favor and do NOT use somebody else bin file on your computer. Reason your BLM is 108 is one of two things. Either you have somehow managed to accidently lock your BLM to 108 OR you're running too rich. Once you've adjusted your VE tables until you get ~128, then play with timing and keep watching those BLMs. Take in all the information you can. Start with idle, go to light throttle and then WOT. I made a major mistake and tried tuning for WOT and idle...my light throttle was way off. I was running lean all over the place and couldn't figure out why. If I had taken some more time to just sit down and do my VE tables I would have been MUCH better off and wouldn't have wasted so much time.
I hope this helps you. Oh yeah, adjusting VE tables, note: The total of the 2 tables at a certain rpm can not be over 100 or they'll just be looked at as 100%. Most guys that do a burn from scratch start with a OEM bin file anyways!
I found that the ANLU (cop car) bin works best as a base eprom. Then I adjusted according like like modify tcc tables to match my f-body stock tables. Then played with a few of the constants until I liked the way it ran. I'm still adjusting the VE tables but that's just because I've been so bogged down with this forum moderating and school. I just have the feeling of "good" everytime I help somebody on the forums, I guess that's what keeps me coming back.
I think I speak for most of the moderators on thirdgen when I say that.
Good luck with the custom eprom and don't expect people to drop what they're doing to help. I read all the posts on the diy_eprom board and I learn something new everyday, helps me piece together this nasty jigsaw puzzle of a car. Just remember, BLM less than 128, the ecm is taking away fuel from the tables, higher than 128 and it's adding because the o2 sensor tells it too.
Good luck

Matt87GTA

Well I don't know if anyone else is catching this or not but here is my take on this issue. This PROM tuning just is not for everyone out there. Not every single owner of an EFI engine wants/is able to tune their own PROMs. The tone of 'voice' that I get from your posts is that of someone who honestly wants to get into this but just doesn't have the ability to for one reason or another (in your case it sounds like time). So I think you should have thought about what you were getting into in the beginning. Just because you spent the money on the equipment doesn't mean you are going to be a pro PROM tuner... It takes a long time with each setup to get it right. That is where I sense that you just aren't cut out for this task. That is not to say that you are stupid or an idiot or we don't respect you, because, I think I can speak for the other (better than me) PROM tuners, that we know and understand that not everyone can spend the time/money/patience on PROM tuning. Families, jobs, school and other more serious obligations come first and that sometimes means you just plain won't be able to tune your own PROM. In that case you are just going to have to accept the idea that you are leaving a few horsepower and a few miles per gallon on the table in your tuning by going with a PROM that is programmed by someone else. There is nothing wrong with that. It is like Glenn said on his post before he locked it, you can likely get a PROM from Ed Wright or Formato that will get your engine running good (not perfect, but good). And I get the vibe from you that that is all you are after. If that is true, then hey, by all means get it done!! You will sleep better at night. And if someone cracks on you for doing it that way, who gives a $hit!! You know why you did it and that is all that matters.

If you intend to, and do, end up sticking with the PROM tuning, just chill out a bit and take it one step at a time. I know it is frustrating. $hit, we (people that tune our own PROMs) all have been in the exact same spot you were in. Remember that. Like JPrevost is saying, that also means that some of us don't appreciate explaining things over and over and over and over when there is a search function on this board.

Now as for sharing a bin, I really don't care if I share my bin with someone. I am not looking to profit (monitarily) from this adventure in PROM tuning. And I also like looking at other bins to get ideas where to start with. Unfortunately there is a serious issue with being liable for other peoples engines. The internet does not protect us from getting sued if we give someone our bin and they blow up their engine as a result of it (or maybe make it look like it because of that - how do you prove it either way?). Maybe if you really know the other person well enough to trust them, but still it is not a good idea. The bottom line is it is just too risky to be handing out a bin that is tuned directly for a certain setup and is right at the limits of that setup before things go wrong (ie it runs lean enough to burn a piston or detonates from too much spark and blows up a piston...etc.). The deal is that once you get to where we are and can tune your own PROM, you start to get that PROM to be tuned to your exact setup so you can get every ounce of performance out of it which essentially marries that bin to that engine which = bad idea giving it away. Am I saying this right? Well, I think you get the idea. If not, someone else will explain it better than me...

I hope you make whatever decision works best for you. And I, for one, will not have any disrespect for you if you have a PROM made for your car. Like I said, sometimes that is just the best solution for that person's particular situation.....

Good Luck

------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

hectorsn

I couldn't agree more with you Matt. You said it 100%. Nomar, looking at the date you registered, it seems you've been with us for a month. IMO, that is nowhere near enough time to take it all in. Be patient. No one here is going to flame you. Matter of fact flame wars suck and don't teach us anything and is probably the main reason they get closed right away. Right now though, you just have to take your time.

Oh yeah, go to the P730 article brought back to our attention. Shopuld explain lots of things. Thanks Glenn!

[This message has been edited by hectorsn (edited October 31, 2001).]

Grim Reaper

I just sent, back to the top, a post called "P730: Part Throttle Tuning (No PE)". This is probably the ONE single best post on how to tune your VE tables for part throttle.

For SD systems, you should start with your VE tables as this is what controls your mixture. This is the table that scares most people about SD cars, but in all honesty, I probably spent far less time on this table than all my other tables. Also, it is very easy to use "aides" such as a scan tool to determine where you are (rich or lean) to make the appropriate changes as outlined in the post I mentioned in the opening.

It is very unlikely that you are going to find ANYONE with a BIN that is exactly like yours. First, most guys here (with SD) have 350s and second, most are F-bodies. You have a 383 Superram for a Corvette. There is no one here with your exact combo; so no one is holding out on you, it's just that none of use have a combo like yours. But, personally, I think if you took a "short-cut" you would be doing yourself a "dis-service" as you would ALSO be accepting all of their tuning mistakes they made in their BIN and wouldn't have an idea of why such things were happening (maybe it's your combo, maybe it's the BIN has a bad setting).

Before you buy a bunch of eproms or a UV Eraser, go with the AT29C256 Flash Prom. If you don't know what they are, do a little searching on them and you'll realize that this is the ONLY way to go with eprom burning if you can use them. And for SD cars, you can....and the easiest of ALL cars on this board.

Second, start with the 90-91 Corvette ANHT BIN. The Corvette BIN, while VERY CLOSE to an F-body BIN, also is different. The Corvette BIN has code to work with the oil temp sensor which the F-body version does not. Also, you don't mention your transmission but you should find a version for the ANHT with a 6-speed for the Corvette if you have a manual tranny. The best place to start is, again, your own Memcal.

Changes to make BEFORE even touching the VE Tables:

1) Set your Cylinder Volume in the constant table to 784cc. This will tell the ECM what size of motor you have to calculate the proper amount of fuel.

2) Set your Injector Flow constant to the "rated flow" of the injector. If you know the "correction factor" for the particular fuel pressure you are running (I recommend around 46-48 psi), use that. But don't get too hung up as whatever you put in here is going to be changed.

3) Set your "Desired Idles Speed Vs Coolant Table". This is assuming you have set your IAC and TPS. If you have not reset your IAC or TPS, go to the "Tech Articles" on this web site and read up on how to adjust the IAC, it is VERY SIMPLE but needs to be adjusted properly before you even begin to tune your eprom.

If your IAC/TPS are adjusted properly, then go into the "Desired Idle Speed vs Coolant Temp" to make the adjustment for the idle speed you want. With your LT-4 Cam, you probably want a higher idle than the stock BIN of 600-650 RPM. Probably more like 750ish at proper operating temp.

4) Now start taking your car for a "little drive" and drive at reasonably light throttle. An interesting observation that I have made is the lower VE Table for low-mid Load (kpa) and low-mid RPM is actually very similar for ALL SD engines, if the Cylinder Constant and Injector Constant are reasonably correct.

If at part throttle (1200-1600 rpm/40-60 Kpa) are all way below BLM 128, then increase the Injector Constant to lean the engine and raise the BLM value. Conversely, if the BLMs are all way above 128, then decrease the Injector Constant to richen the engine and lower the BLM value. Do this adjustment until you are notice that half of your BLMS are above 128 and half are below 128 (best scenario) or reasonably close to somewhere between 115-140. But the closer you can get most of the readings on the 1200-1600 rpm/40-60 kpa to 128ish, the better.

5) Now you are ready to begin tuning your VE table in ernst. In fact, you may find your car is even running reasonably well and fairly close...now you have a BIN close to what someone else would probably have e-mailed you or would have bought from a custom prom writer. Follow the "P730: Part throttle tuning VE (no PE)" and begin tweaking your VE tables. This will get your fuel mixture correct and once done, you will be ready to start tweaking the spark.

The above procedure is how I start ALL my bins.

Lionsden

Nomar116
You are were I was about six months ago. It does get frustrating at times. When I finally made the plunge, purchased "all" the equipment needed to prom burn and started using them then things started falling into place. Traxion's and other articles will start making sense.

You see that I don't have a high post count. I have had a million questions. Most of the questions have been answered through searches on this forum. Specific questions or questions for clarity for the most part have been answered through posting.

I'm tuning a 7747 ecm. There are tons of bin files on the web for the 7747. I downloaded some of them just for comparison to what I have. You should be able to find bin files for your ecm.

Others have sent me bin files which I have used as a learning tool. I can understand the hesitancy of giving others my (or their) custom bins. Not that they are a secret but rather because of misapplication they could damage your engine.

Hang in there. It was fustrating at first now it is becoming fun.




------------------
Dan

Grim Reaper

One last hint, before I go, if your scan tool does not display the MAP in metric, set the scan tool to display in metric. You need the KPA readings for the MAP sensor. In English, In Hg, just doesn't work. Make sure your MAP is displayed in KPA.

TRAXION

Matt's comment about not everyone being able to do PROM burning is quite accurate. A long time ago I originally thought that anyone could do this ... probably because I found it pretty easy. But, there are stupid people in the world. Stupid people can't do PROM burning. Now I am not saying that anyone on this board is stupid. I am just making a point that not everyone can do PROM burning.

Now - on to a different subject. Normar - you are upset because you haven't recieved the help that you wanted. Ask yourself the question why you didn't get help. All of the posts that I saw by you were simple questions that could be answered via searches on this board or by doing a real in-depth reading of the tech article. Slow down dude. You are trying to move too fast. Take your time. You can't learn to do this in a week or two (well - maybe ). Start slow and then take your time. Do little changes first. While you are doing these little changes conduct A LOT of on-line research. Also, buy some books ... books related to EFI are a great resource for beginners.

Tim



------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Grim Reaper

I should add as to "why I locked your post". First, the RULE on this board (read the link to "READ THIS FIRST BEFORE YOU POST") clearly states that "Anyone requesting a BIN or having an eprom burned will be deleted without warning or explanation". And I generally DO delete those type of posts WITHOUT warning or explanation.

The reason I left your post "alive, but locked" was you were already getting the "flames" but I wanted you to more importantly understand why "grabbing" someone's BIN just doesn't cut it. And if you are not so interested in trying to improve performance just go Ed Wright or Formato.

I am going to say that while this eprom burning may be "easier to grasp for others", I also believe that ANYONE who can operate a computer, has a basic understanding of engines and how to tune them SHOULD be able to write their own eprom if they get the appropriate equipment. Some grasp it quickly, others take a little time.

I personally think what you are REALLY trying to saying is: "Okay, I got all the equipment what would be the first steps I should take to get an eprom working for me". And if you follow the steps I have lined out and follow the "P730: Tuning for Part Throttle (NO PE)", you will be well on your way.

As you start to "play with it", you will have questions. Do a quick search on this Board first, and if you find a relevant post in the history, bring the post back to the top and post your question there. This will give us a good idea of what you have tried and not tried, so we can best advise you.

If you do not find any old posts related to your question, then by all means post it.

The real problen that does occur is the "Where do I start posts", or posts that are so broad and encompassing that none of us have either the knowledge or the time (if we know it) to answer the question fully.

I have no problem writing a quick paragraph or two to explain a specific question, but I can't be writting "essays or reports" every day.

I hated writing essays when I was in school, and I still hate them.

Ed Maher

Just to give you some perspective on the time issue, as well as the experience/comfort level, take me as an example.

I'm a computer engineer by trade, and have been working on my cars for years. I've been involved in these boards for years. I first looked into PROM burning (for our cars that is) probably 3 years ago and started looking at the basics. I completely followed the explosion that took place that made PROM burning so relatively big here today. I've actually owned TC and a burner for months now and have made many basic changes to this point. I finally got a hold of a laptop (thanks tim) so i can run diacom, and even though i've read everything a million times, i still find myself asking the same questions as you and have to get used to doing everything at this deeper level. And the biggest impediment is time to do it. Even for a guy who could write his own motorola assembly for the ECM and who knws the ins and outs of these cars by rote, i still need time to get rid of the green feeling i have now about everything.
If i don't expect to be able to just drop right into it, i sure as hell wouldn't expect anybody else. Least of all a vette owner. j/k


------------------
Ed Maher - Moderator @ The TPI & Carb Boards
92 Z28 Convertible - Quasar blue / Tan top
305 TPI A4 2.73 - 14.7 @ 93.6
Stock except ported plenum and dual cats
-=ICON Motorsports=-

- Definitely prototypes, high powered mutants of some kind. Too weird to live, too cool to die

Nomar116

OK... Well frustration boils over I suppose at times. We're all human and I guess it bothered me that I seemed seculed for what was a relatively harmless question. I was trying to ASK wether I could even use someone elses bin, which I now is obviouslly unadvised (And I definately wont do because of that) However, I wasnt really looking to just get a bin, burn it, and be done. I really thought seeing two bins, and two chips and reading how they reacted, I would better understand how a given change effected the computer. I dont think this is correct at all, I know it simply requires the TIME.

I guess whats particularly difficult is I have EVERYTHING except that tdf file. I just mailed the check for that (credit fraud recently over the net.... ) But Im waiting for what is probably one of the most important purchases. I have pulled data on the car (Read and tried to make sense of with a bit of luck) But cant really see what makes changes without the tdf file.

Thats what makes what Glenn said so useless to me for the next couple days. And thats whats frustrating. That said Glenn and all others I wish I could thank you guys more. It sheds some light on what is now a very dark and mysterious area... The sincerity and time you guys took, although maybe only 5 minutes, really means alot. I am not a person that gives up. I finished this car mechanically despite huge obstacles, this tuning wont defeat me now I know I could buy a chip, but I do want the car to run at its best, I just want it to run safely soon... And I think from reading what has been said, once everything is in line, it shouldnt take EXTREMELY long to make the adjustments necessary to run OK then I can start thinking about perfect. Also, Glenn what you said was repetitive, I have read that before, and I understand how frustrating that can get. I suppose since I dont have a VE table in front of me, or a RPM to Coolant Temp table or anything for that matter in front of me, it just doesnt stick. Ill slow down and wait it out, the car seems to run very well for a stock chip on this setup. It runs very rich at idle, runs relatively lean under throttle and will really really want to die after first firing the car up and changing of gears. Aside from that the knock count is in the single digits most of the few runs Ive made and not setting any codes (Minus code 32... which Ill work on. So in conclusion, thanx and hopefully time will iron everything out...I wish I could put in words how GLAD I am this wasnt taken out of light and turned into an unproductive flame. Ill also bookmark this and the post you brought up Glenn for future reference.
Paul

------------------
90 Red Convertible
100k running great
ZAINO!!!
383 Stroked.... LT4 Hot Cam... Forged Elgen Pistons Scat 9000 Crank Elgen 5.7" rods New Lifters w/ 1.6 Rockers and hardened Pushrods Super Ram Intake Hooker Headers and Y pipe into Gutted Cat with Monza Mufflers (WAY TO LOUD!!) Adj Regulator K&N Shift Kit High stall converter 160 termo, ZR1 Rims.... Red Calipers....Alpine head unit, Kenwood 6x9 4 ways, Polk DX 6 1/2 compnents, MTX 240 amp, Viper 550 alarm,


www.corvetteforum.net/c4/nomar116/

Nomar116

I actually already have that post bookmarked... Suppose I just need the darn equipment

davidjon_99

There's not much I can add that hasn't already been said, but here goes.

First, the longer you hang around here the more you'll see new people asking the same questions over and over. "What equipment should I use?", "Where do I get such and such". I asked the same questions and got the same responses..."Go read Traxion's article". Some people just don't realize there is an article that answers many of the equipment questions. I'm probably one of the most easy going people, and I get frustrated with those questions. I can't imagine the frustration of the old timers. I used to spend time answering them, but I realized they just never stop. I'm still asking myself why I'm responding to your post. It's not the first "I'm pissed because no one answers my questions" post, nor will it be the last. If no one answers my question, I go out and find the answer myself. Then I respond to my own post with the answer.

Second, never, ever trust someone elses prom work. Not that they would purposely screw you, but their setup is different and it might be dangerous for your setup. Their fuel and spark tables won't help you at all, it's all just a bunch of numbers that makes sense for their engine, but probably not for your's. It is the theory, the concepts, that makes you better at burning proms. I've even gone as far as learning assembly language for the processor in my ECM and reading through a program hack I found on the Internet. That has given me much more insight into what's going on than anything else.

Third, patience is a virtue, especially when it comes to programming your proms. It took me 6 weeks to get my prom burner. In those 6 weeks, I read everything I could on the concepts behind programming ECMs. This forum is great, but do searches on the Internet and you'll find all kinds of stuff. It's a puzzle, you get a piece here and you get a piece there, then all of the sudden you have answers to your questions. There are very few, if any, quick fixes. Look at each inprovement as a success and then move to your next improvement.

And lastly, prom burning is fairly difficult and farily expensive. You have to be able to use a computer and figure out some fairly complex things. It costs money to buy the software and hardware. The people who write the software bust their *** to do so, and I think they should be rewarded. Pay them for their work. How would you like it if your boss decided not to pay you after you busted your *** ?

Programming proms is not for everyone. However, it is very rewarding. My truck drives like a totally different vehicle. It's no hotrod, but I can finally get on the freeway without having to punch my foot through the floorboard.

Oh, one more thing, if this car is your daily driver, then always have a backout plan in case something goes wrong with the prom you programmed.

Good luck

------------------
1991 Chevy C2500HD 5.7L HD. 16147060 ECM
Mods: Crane PowerMax 2030 cam 204I 214E @ .050 and 423I 446E lift, Jacobs Pro Street Ignition System. Using DataMaster and TunerCat with $85 ECM files.

Grim Reaper

No worries. I only get repetitive when the poster asks the same question a couple of times. This is your third time requesting a BIN.

Grumpy

I've been posting how to's longer then anybody I know of. Talked to thousands of guys over the years. And it always always always, boils down to just getting in and doing it. It will all seem overwelhming for a while, just as anything else really NEW is. Take notes, work slow, measure performance. Learning to read plugs is also a grand idea. If you let it it can be frustrating, but remember frustration is just things getting to you and have little to do with reality. Even when you burn the perfect chip you'll be learning, and all of a sudden perfect is no even close, as you learn, you get better, and what you'll settle for even changes. There is no bin better then what you need to start with then stock. Cruel as that answer is it's the truth.

pandin

This is an old and long read and gives very detailed explanations as to why things are done, the way they are (no prom begging).

It should be a must read for any newbie, just getting started.

It also contains a step by step way to start tuning.

chevyracingrox

I agree, I found this thread very informative.

Jag Guy

Hi Guys,
I have built a Chevy TBI L03 5.0 ltr powered 1984 Jaguar XJ6. The donor car for the ecm, engine, trans, harness, etc (92 Caprice) was free so I went this route. The rear gear of the Jag is 2.88 and the gear of the Caprice was different so I had to figure out how to get the proper VSS ratio to make the thing run right. Long story short, I started researching power improvements for this engine and have to modify shift points by using some trans governor tricks. As the research went on I realized I would have to reprogram the puter if I made any engine mods to get the best efficiency and performance and so I ended up here. This "begging" post and the ensuing responses is really an eye opener and should be "sticky of the highest order"! I can see that I would have also made the same mistakes. Good read. In my case, rather than go thru all the bother of trying to get the L03 5.0 litre to make some torque for my behemoth I will be thinking of just getting an LT1 roller engine and then using the prom from a heavy car that used that engine trans setup. This prom burning looks like fun but I don't think I would have the time to figure it all out. Looks to be way scary. Too bad it has to be soooo complicated, I would love to start with a crate 383 and trick it with a good TBI system for its simplicity and cost. Hint: Thanks guys.

tRixster

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Gearing should be relatively close. Is the donor ECU an 8746? How does it run tranny wise? Upshifting wrong RPM? I drive manual so cant be of help.
tbichips.com(brian harris) may be of assistance.

First step if you wish DIY is datalogging. check out winALDL or TunerproRT.

Here is the tranny help section...https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=319110