XxXChrisGXxX

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Isn't it set to exit DFCO after a certain time period or to keep it engaged? I'm not sure right now because I'm on my chromebook so I can't check the bin. All I know is it does this everytime I release my foot off the throttle in OD. I don't think the clutches are messed up...it says Overdrive status Active on a few of my logs. Any thoughts on my idle? It sits around 900 warm in OD, I bought a 2.8 throttle body that hasn't been punched, wonder why it is so high...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The ECM will stay in DFCO as long as the MPH & RPM are high enough, and the MAP is low enough. The delay before entering again is normal.

As for the idle speed, check the IAC counts. If at zero look for a vacuum leak. If not at zero then the ECM is commanding that speed.

RBob.

XxXChrisGXxX

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IAC counts are at zero warm in OD. I replaced all the vacuum routes in my car though. If I turn the A/C on it goes up 6 counts like it should. I think the screw is just to high, wouldn't the ECM retard the spark to bring the idle down?

I have a scalar in the bin "max time in decel enlean," it is set to 2 seconds is this the same as DFCO? I'm not sure why it kicks out of DFCO, the bin values look fine.

Saar

there is a limit to how much advance can be pulled. if you're that high above target idle for that long, i'm amazed DTC35 isn't getting set(unless it was disabled).

and DE =/= DFCO. two very different functions.

XxXChrisGXxX

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DTC35 is a code? Well, what should I do? Punch the TB and put the screw down? I am almost sure there is no vacuum leak, unless it is the valve covers (leaks abit of oil). My air filter box is cut on the bottom both of them, maybe that could raise the idle to 900 warm OD? Hmm

Saar

valve covers wouldn't be a vacuum leak. PCV causes air to flow through them, but if the valve covers are leaking, it will simply be a "leaner" mix of air/oil/blowby/combustion byproducts. shouldn't be much PCV flow to begin with at idle though. perhaps remove oil fill cap while idling, see if it causes a loping idle? if so, i'd say the PCV is stuck at least partially open.

i would definitely look at closing the throttle blade a bit if you're seeing 0 IAC counts and still not hitting target idle speed and are 100% certain that you don't have any vacuum leaks.

a cut filter box isn't a problem either, it's not under any vacuum(and shouldn't effect the MAF either).

XxXChrisGXxX

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I'll put my old TB on and mess with the idle screw. I bought this 2.8 TB because it was unpunched (you know it has the metal cap on), it's weird that it is so high. Far as DFCO goes, I'm not sure why it kicks out.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

At low speeds this is exactly how DFCO has always acted on my car. Above 40 the trans keeps the motor spinning like Rbob said so if this is happening above 40 that's not normal. Like they said 0 IAC usually indicates a vac leak.

XxXChrisGXxX

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Above 40 the car does not do this. It is only below 40 so I guess it's normal?

I checked for vacuum leaks, there is none. Literally, just about everything on my car has been replaced. This includes all new vacuum hoses except the molded EGR ones but those have been checked both on and off the car. Intake has new gaskets and RTV.

I think maybe the TB varied by year? Mine isn't punched but for some reason it just can't get lower than 850-875 in OD warm. My older intake was punched so I adjusted it to 650 in drive warm, IAC disconnected and EST disconnected. Guess I will do that again and see what happens.

The car stumbles sometimes in Drive when warm at idle, I 'm wondering if this is because it is trying to reach that target idle.

XxXChrisGXxX

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In park the IAC steps are lower than in drive, is that normal? I adjusted the idle stop screw now the ECM commands idle. It fluctuates between 675-725 is that normal?

Check out the attached log. This is fresh (ECM reset prior to this)

bl85c

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It should be lower because there's less load on the motor in park. In drive it has to open the IAC more to maintain the same speed. Will look at the idle when I get home.

XxXChrisGXxX

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I still have that stumble around 1000-1500 RPMs but it isn't all the time, so I am trying to figure it out. I tried to do the constant state thing, it was burbling around that range. If you look at this log at 1:30ish the Intergrator values start to drop, what does that mean? Could the MAF tables cause this or do you think it could be the MAF?

I did steady state for 1,000 RPMs, idle if that counts?, and I tried to do 1250 RPMs.

So I take the current BLMs and divide that by 128 (Current BLM/BLM or BLM/Current BLM?), then I add this to the MAF table with the current value found in that table that corresponds with that airflow?

So if at 1.00 volts I find 7.15 I would add say the product 0.85 to it? to make 8.00.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

It runs nicely on the highway and with daily use especially after it is warm. The only problems thus far is when you first start it and go into reverse or to drive it "chugs," when you first press the throttle for a bit usually in the 1,000 - 1,500 RPM range. Also if I try to hold it in this range it will "chug" even after its warm until I either press the gas more or release to idle. Could this be the physical MAF, the tables, or the AE and PE tables?

You can view the log of the chugs in the log above.

bl85c

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Sorry I've been sidetracked lately. I will look at it when I get a chance.

bl85c

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Sorry it took so long to get back to you. On your 7/17 log, when this happens it enters closed loop and the int/blm drops then it kicks out of closed loop and the O2 status goes to not ready. On your 7/4 log the O2 sensor is running in very long lazy loops which usually means it's old and carbon caked or bad. How old is your O2 sensor?

XxXChrisGXxX

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It's new...actually bought it because I heard bad things about Bosch...so I got the NGK sensor.

It only does the burbling between idle and 2,000 RPMs, and it only does it really bad when you first start in and while in open loop...and it is bin related, I bought a second FORD MAF sensor. I think it may be related to AE or PE?

Otherwise, it runs good...MPG seems to be good, response is amazing...only problem I have is occasional stalling when first starting after a very short trip (1 mile or less) and the burbling when in open loop..

I will record a new fresh log with my new MAF and when I first start my car in the morning. I will sit idle for 2 or so minutes going between 1,000-2,000 RPMs and maybe we can figure it out.

bl85c

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Alright, but it shouldn't kick out of closed loop. Once it enters closed loop the only thing that should interrupt it is power enrichment.

XxXChrisGXxX

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Here is another log. I purposely rev it to between 1,000-2,000 RPMs in the beginning and end of the log. I also drive it on the highway for a bit.

It does still burble when in closed loop warm and open loop cold as well...I am thinking it has to do with one of the values in the bin.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

At 4.39 it goes open loop then enters closed loop at 4.58 corresponding roughly to the time you spent at idle. There's nothing in the calibration that will do this, the only things that will cause it to exit closed loop are power enrichment, highway mode and sensor inactivity and the entire time you are idling it's lean drifting between 250-350 mvolts. Perhaps you have a small exhaust leak that's negligible at higher speeds, or if you have an unheated sensor (1 wire) it's simply getting too cool after initial startup. Otherwise I'd say you can add a bit of fuel to the startup enrich vs coolant table if you feel it's too lean on startup.

Saar

if it were cooling down too much, i would expect it to drift back towards 450mV and sit there until it heats up again.

XxXChrisGXxX

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My sensor is one wire.

So, you don't think the PE values are to high? or the MAF sensor values need to be tuned out?

You're saying it's actually lean, I thought the opposite...as the log says rich most of the time while idle.

At 4:39 I was at a stop light, just about to go on the highway that was about 1-2 miles down the road from my house. The end and begining of the log is when I try to emulate the "burble." by raising the RPMs past 1,000 and holding it.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Power enrich has nothing to do with it and although the MAF tables need a bit of adjusting (134 BLM in some places) it's likely related to it dropping out of closed loop. Still not sure why it's doing this. You are using the NTRPMX bin right? Because PA6E has an open loop idle option.

XxXChrisGXxX

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I am using the NTRPMX Dist bin. Maybe it will help if I have someone video record what the car does at x RPMs and post it.

What would happen if I made the other values in the PE vs Coolant Temp 21.14 as well?
It burbles alot more cold and in open loop than in closed.

bl85c

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Nothing. The power enrich tables are only used when you have your foot down. A vid would help.

XxXChrisGXxX

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See if this helps, usually around 1500 it struggles to get above unless I put the pedal down further...and it burbles if I hold it. You could see the needle shake. This is while parked.

XxXChrisGXxX

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I think this log should help, I believe my values where being thrown off by my modified connector for the MAF, I bought the right connector and it seems to stay in closed loop. My BLM at idle is 133 I believe.

It seems to only do this while not moving and revving the engine and especially is noticible at and a little before 1500 RPMs or while pressing the throttle really slow. So it has something to do with the air/fuel ratio it seems.

It sounds and feels normal when your actually driving it.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I'm not sure what to make of this. I can't see anything related to your jumpy RPM in the datalogs and I've not seen anything like it before. It looks like it still kicks out of closed loop at idle occasionally. I can only speculate at this point, Rbob will probably have a better idea of what's going on with this than I do. If it's not a nuisance I might be tempted to call it good but you can always ask him about it.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

I have disc injectors Bosch gen II, flows at 15 lbs or 15.2 I believe.

I am trying to adjust the MAF values and see if that helps but the BLMs are never the same at idle all the time...so it's tricky and it doesn't "burble," when driving so I believe it has to do with load? This is weird. Should I try to keep RPMs constant in Park or Drive so I can adjust the airflow of MAF. It's hard keeping it constant with the burble though.

Is the cold start injector suppose to be disconnected?

bl85c

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It should be disconnected. Adjusting the MAF tables should always be done under load driving down the street as usual.

XxXChrisGXxX

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I disconnected it. I rechecked all my vacuum lines and replaced some even though I know there all new. The car didn't have this stumble with the 302'. It occurs most at 1250-1500 and struggles to get past 1500 while in park revving the engine. If I drive in overdrive it runs as normal unless driving REALLY slow then you can feel the burble a little bit. There is also some slight jerk when initially throttling (actual driving). I adjusted the first MAF table a little bit and it did seem to help.

I can't really adjust it any higher though with the scalar at 15 and keep a smooth curve. The question is, is it the MAF values causing this or, hmm.. Maybe I should adjust the injector constant?

I purchased an AC Delco oxygen sensor and I am going to replace my exhaust donuts since I had some spare new ones, see if that helps my closed - open loop problem.

I am going to try to add to the PE table. I wont touch the AE table, I am a bit confused on what that does. Maybe i'll lower the injector constant and also adjust the MAF table...ummm hmmm.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The PE table is only used above 75% throttle, messing with it isn't going to help your problem. The AE (accel enrich) is like the pump shot on a carb but since your problem is a constant stumble AE isn't likely to help either. As long as your injectors flow 15 lb/hr it matches the conntant in the bin and you don't need to mess with it. If you run out of room in the MAF tables adjust your scalar to the highest value in your table. Do some more research before you go changing things without a good idea of what does what.

XxXChrisGXxX

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I figured it out. I disconnected the EGR valve vacuum line and walaaaa no more burble. How can we go about fixing this now? Wasn't the MAF tables after all.

Either the bin is enabling it too soon or the solenoid is leaking? Not sure but I want to fix it.

#1 is how can I disable the EGR completely and not throw codes in the BIN?
#2 will this effect the BLM and INT?

So I can test this out further.

bl85c

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Replace the solenoid or leave the vac line off.

XxXChrisGXxX

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Disable the EGR if MAT < X is -40. This would mean the EGR is on all the time, I think. I changed it to 325 and blocked the line.

RBob

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IIRC, that is about the only thing the MAT is used for, when to allow the EGR to function ($32/$6E). If you want the EGR to function that threshold should be set to a nominal value, such as 140*F.

Apparently, there are EGR tables that will need to be tuned. When EGR is enabled the ECM typically reduces fuel and adds spark advance.

RBob.

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

bl85c is your EGR disabled?

and what injectors were you running with the bin? The Injector offset table is different compared to the 302.

RBob there are two tables, "EGR Duty Cycle Multiplier vs Coolant Temp," and "EGR Duty Cycle vs. LV8 and RPM." These values are similar to those found in a stock 302 V6 bin. I believe the table values should work just fine because it worked great for the stock 302 bin.

bl85c

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It hasn't had EGR since I started tuning. Originally I had the stock injectors with that offset table, should be fine.

XxXChrisGXxX

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Did you tune that offset table? Just trying to figure out why you didn't use the 302 offset vs bat volt table like in the $32B bin.

I disabled CCP, Highway mode, DFCO, and the EGR so I can tune the MAF tables...I think I am on the right track. I just need to figure out why it kicks out of closed loop, the injector constant, and the inj offset tables.

I have the Bosch Gen II Disc Injectors, SouthBay stated they flowed at 15.2 lb at 43.5 but the serial on the injector and the data found online states

0-280-150-941
Flow:14.1
CC/MIN:148.2
GRAMS:106.6
PSI:43.5
BAR:3

So I am wondering if I should change the inj offset to the tables found in the 32B bin (stock 302 table), and change the inj constant?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The low pulse width correction and the voltage offset tables are newer updates to reflect better alternator and newer injector sytles. Both tables should be fine. The low pulse width table is only used below ~1msec (rarely gets that low) and the voltage offset is really only important if your alt. goes out.

Saar

if you have some monterously large injectors relative to cylinder volume, you can idle at 1mS.... those are fun to dial in.

stock or close to stock flowrate though, yeah, i wouldn't worry too much about it.

the voltage correction table though.... that can be critical.

bl85c

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LOL yea that's why I added open loop idle and messed with the single fire qualifires on PA6E. Mine was hovering around .9msec at idle on a warm day.

XxXChrisGXxX

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I don't know how we could even put comparison between a 2.8 with an EGR (functioning or not) vs. a 2.8 without an EGR (completely removed) unless I'm missing something. My solenoid was bad but I plugged the vacuum line going to it thus disabling it (EGR still on car though), and I had a brand new EGR on my car...I mean the car idled ok +-50 RPMs and ran alright and everything...no leaks on the base of metal tube...butttt and this is a BIG BUTTT I blocked off the EGR tube hole on the throttle body and the hole on the manifold and got rid of the EGR all together...omg...it's like night and day. It idles so smooth, it accelerates very smooth, and for some reason my brakes work WAY better...weird. Sometimes I can't tell if the car is on...it's that much better.

Saar

sounds like it was still sucking exhaust through it.

XxXChrisGXxX

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I blocked the EGR vacuum line off and the valve is new, I even had my original valve on and it ran like it did before so I don't think that's what it was. The only way for it to suck exhaust into the intake is if my valve was bad...both of them of course this is with the 165 ECM $6E with the thunderbird maf bin. Maybe, it likes no EGR better...lol idk.

bl85c

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X2

XxXChrisGXxX

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I blocked the EGR vacuum supply on a new EGR and my old one so the EGR couldn't have been leaking exhaust into the intake (originally it was because I didn't block the vacuum supply but I am talking about after blocking the vacuum supply and just leaving the EGR hooked up). Either blocking it at the base has caused the vacuum to rise because of less surface area or the metal tube connecting my EGR to the intake might of been leaking...but I doubt that.

Anyway, car is amazing now...just need to tune the MAF tables and figure out why my car stalls cold and wont start until I either wait alittle while...or when I wiggle the MAF connector it will start. I have bought new wire, made clean cuts, and soldiered all the new wire to the existing wires and also soldiered it to new MAF terminals for the connector, so now I am 100% sure the MAF connector is not the problem...maybe it's my MAF.

XxXChrisGXxX

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OK, attached are my new MAF connector and the soldier job I performed on it.

This MAF connector is 100% full-proof tested it with my volts meter and the soldier job is as good as it gets. If it still stalls and I could start it by wiggling the MAF connector it is something else or something in the bin causing it. I personally believe it is the startup enrich or open AFR tables...but I don't really want to mess with it with limited knowledge going to poke around some. I will test this new connector tomorrow morning (it always stalls on a cold morning first start and also a mile or so down the road).

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Have you checked the harness for bad spots? The only thing that would cause it to start when touching the MAF or induction area as you have said is a bad connection somewhere. There's nothing in the program that would do this. If it persists check your harness.

XxXChrisGXxX

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Yes I have. You have to remember also I went from a perfectly working 302 MAF system...it worked everyday all day...nothing was wrong with my car. I just wanted better mileage and a better system overall. After having said that, the wires and the harness were all very good before the new MAF...and further I have moved the harness, hit the MAF, hit the CTS, hit the air intake system, hit the TPS many times while the car is running and it doesn't do anything to my car while it's running. I have also used a volt meter to test the grounds, signal wire, and power.

Also...I didn't leave the wires bare if anyone was wondering...lol I used heat shrink.

I think it's just when I touch the air intake system...I don't know why it works. I will try this new connector tomorrow morning and report back.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Would anyone be interested in having the digital MAF routines added to PA6E so you can use PA6E with the stock MAF? I've been considering it for PA6E v2.0.