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I have no idea, will have to check later today. All I know is that this code will lock timing at closed throttle which is a neat feature. All i had to do was use close throttle table to kinda lock VE now and ensure no fuel changes. I'm finding these 80lb injectors can really get screwy with minor changes in VE. That was my biggest problem when using the main VE table for closed throttle as well... just way too much change between RPM levels, you need more exact adjustment.
24° advance at idle seems low. Have you tried higher values? I would think low/mid 30's is where you want to be and should help.
Also, I run 24° total timing at 10psi and 11.5:1afr. This is with 8.5:1 comp. and 93 octane. Since I have a street car, I keep the timing conservative and likely could add more. For you, 26° is probably the highest I'd go without a properly behaving knock sensor or dyno tuning. I experience false knock too, but mine is at peak torque and it restores timing in the upper rpms.
24 is low for idle? I ran 28 with my 383 11 to 1 motor with a big cam to help stabilize idle... i didnt think you should go higher than that. Alot of my part throttle loads are in the lower mid 30's. My header temps seem to get pretty hot at idle, hotter than I'd expect but I never had a turbo car before. Maybe its a timing issue. I'll look into bumping timing up.
I havent tried higher values but I believe my idle instability was due to poor VE spacing between cells in the main VE table. I had to enable the closed throttle table which gives more RPM value range so i can dial in the VE settings.
IAC was acting funny and I still think its a problem with it being a new style IAC with code 59's (TPI computers in general) older IAC controls.
I just dont understand how the car was acting just fine for a few days/weeks then the idle would just go to crap. If the VE tables were so bad at closed throttle then why wouldnt the idle be hunting/surging all the time? I dont know, but I think I finally got this thing figured out.
Need to fix another exhaust leak in my exhaust system and hope to start it up today to check for idle again. Yesterday i had it cold starting ok and idle was stable but abit rich. leaned it out some and lowered desired idle speed so hope to check out the new settings today.
Inspection tomorrow so I can finally drive the car on the road legally...
If the IAC is the IAC I think you're using, then $59 works just fine with it, should be the same IAC I'm using in my Datsun, that was originally used on the 3100/3400, which from what I can tell is the same as other engines of the same era.
__________________ If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
what kinda Inspection can you pass with turbo's hanging out of the hood lol. good luck six_ I thought there was something about older iac being 0-128 steps and new being 0-256. or does that not matter? I know its a simpler stepper motor, so maybe not? its how fine the ecm can adjust those steps?
Its from a LS1 fbody thats all i know. I have heard it has more steps to it than older TPI style. Not sure if it matters but I did notice from time to time my IAC counts would either be very high like 170's + or sometimes low like low 30's or so. Varied from time to time and when idle started goin bad i saw high IAC's...so i thought it was an IAC error.
As far as inspection...we'll find out thursday. In PA, you keep the car under 5K miles a year your emissions exempt both visual and sniffer. But as far as stuff out the hood...thats new to me but i've seen tons of cars with air filters/blowers out the hood no problem around here.
Haha forgot to update... the tune was better but was very lean but the car didnt die out. Took it over to inspection and it passed just fine. I was kinda surprised lol.
Driving it around now to keep working the part throttle tune. When i did the closed throttle tune, it was with coolant cool and the car was idling at 14 to 1 or so but never got a chance to heat up. When it did heat up it dropped to high 16's to 17's air fuel ratio.. I should have verified this the day before inspection but the car started up and drove fine enough to pull into the garage and pass inspection
So i bumped those values up abit more and hopefully that will bring idle back around. If the rain holds off tomorrow morning we may be racing Saturday. Else its getting canceled and rescheduled for sunday. I cant wait but I wanna take it somewhat easy to make sure this tune is close enough for a full rpm full boost run. Raining now so I cant take it out. Hopefully I'll get all day tomorrow to tune it and sunday we will race
I have no idea what a code $59 spark table looks like, but are you able to post a pic of it? For comparison, this is my current spark advance:
I idle in the 700rpm/32kpa cell. I don't know if this helps you at all, but when I began tuning, it was hard to figure out what values should go in the spark table. It's not as easy as the fuel map that has O2 feedback, so you know where and how much to adjust.
But your timing looks much more aggressive than mine but maybe I can add more.
I idle in the 975-1050 range at 46-50kpa or so. I got 26 degrees timing now i think at idle. As i free rev, my timing doesnt go over 38-40 degrees and i see you have 46-50.
Most of my part throttle cells i'm not running more than 35-38 degrees.
At full boost at 170 kpa I got about 25 degrees timing now. At 101 kpa I have it set to 34 degrees. From 101kpa to 170 it ramps down slowly. Computer says its pulling timing up to 4 degrees at my current but i had it as low as 22 and its still pulling timing at max boost. So I may desensitize the knock sensor. I dont hear any pings and I dont think 24 degrees or so at 170kpa is too much. I want to be aggressive with it but at the same time dont want to hurt anything.
But your timing looks much more aggressive than mine but maybe I can add more.
I idle in the 975-1050 range at 46-50kpa or so. I got 26 degrees timing now i think at idle. As i free rev, my timing doesnt go over 38-40 degrees and i see you have 46-50.
Most of my part throttle cells i'm not running more than 35-38 degrees.
At full boost at 170 kpa I got about 25 degrees timing now. At 101 kpa I have it set to 34 degrees. From 101kpa to 170 it ramps down slowly. Computer says its pulling timing up to 4 degrees at my current but i had it as low as 22 and its still pulling timing at max boost. So I may desensitize the knock sensor. I dont hear any pings and I dont think 24 degrees or so at 170kpa is too much. I want to be aggressive with it but at the same time dont want to hurt anything.
running really rich can make it pull timing too, if at max boost your like richer than say 11 to 1. you may be able to pull a bit of timing, then lean it up and retard go away, so you can put more timing back into it. i've read you can shoot for 12.2s at max TQ and 12.7s at max HP. sounds lean to me, but you see what i mean.
in theory anyways.... i've never been able to get a tune nailed down to that point. but if your making a few trips to the track, you may be able to.
I've always heard and read people run nitrous and boost richer than N/A to keep combustion chamber temps down. Makes sense to me, boosted chambers are hotter than NA motors, just the way the gas properties work.
I plan on leaning out to 11.5 to 1 on 10 psi and leaving timing where it is, maybe back down 2 degrees since I didnt pick up anything at the track with 2 more added but it was pulling 4 total anyway in both situations so null point i guess.
I plan to tune this thing tomorrow on the street, some high 2nd or 3rd gear pulls if it hooks and try to get air fuel down a touch before adjusting boost controller to get 12-13psi
here is my timing table, i realize i'm way low on timing in alotof part throttle areas. I should be seeing 36-40 degrees right? i got like 28-33.... maybe thats why the pipes glow abit after a long cruise and this car runs so hot coolant temp wise
I did not do any more adjustments above 178kpa. It drops from 22 to 17 and i may try add a degree or 2 to all of those
i've read some really nicely written papers about why adding extra fuel to cool the chambers isn't really whats going on. but then from what guys are doing in the real world it seems to work.
but as said, your playing with more power than i've even tuned with.
here's some link i enjoyed reading, incase your bored.
well i'm gonna add in some timing and then try leaning it out some. Rework my part throttle tune tomorrow and then work into the boost. Lots to do in little time
here is my timing table, i realize i'm way low on timing in a lot of part throttle areas. I should be seeing 36-40 degrees right? i got like 28-33.... maybe that's why the pipes glow a bit after a long cruise and this car runs so hot coolant temp wise
Yes, you are very low for cruise timing. Try to picture a carb setup. You have initial, mechanical, and vacuum advance. The initial is constant. Mechanical advance increases with rpms and is usually all in before 3000rpm. Vacuum advance adds timing to the idle and cruise and reduces to zero at WOT. You are neglecting to add the extra advance that a vacuum advance distributor would normally add.
If you feel like playing around with timing maps, I made a spreadsheet that fills in your spark table based on initial, mechanical, and vacuum advance. To use the attachment, download it and before you open it, change the .doc extension back to an .xls extension and open in Excel.
well i went through my timing table and added more. I'm used to my MAF setup but its based on LV8 vs rpm. kpa is new to me... but based on what i see now, i think i can get away with adding a bunch more for cruise. I moved from 28-34 to 36-37 in most of the cells i'll be driving in. Start there and add more as i get fueling closer.
also remember, the st/ty run 0* dizzy, where we run 6*. so the max timing in the bin is set lower than it is in a 8d bin. something like 41*. its too keep the dizzy from cross arcing to the next pole. our 6* reference allows up to run more timing, like say in highway mode and stuff. so if your want to run a bunch of timing in cruise. you need to move your max timing up.
See i think i have my base timing set to something like 11-12 degrees just because at the time, thats where the motor fired up at and i left it there. I have to reverify that but do i reallly want/need to go over 41 degrees of timing for cruise? Is it that much more beneficial? Seems like a lot of timing advance, but i guess it couldnt hurt to try?
See i think i have my base timing set to something like 11-12 degrees just because at the time, thats where the motor fired up at and i left it there. I have to reverify that but do i reallly want/need to go over 41 degrees of timing for cruise? Is it that much more beneficial? Seems like a lot of timing advance, but i guess it couldnt hurt to try?
nah, you don't have to run any more timing than you want. and the lean cruise thing, is for cars that cruise alot on the highway. maybe not so big a deal for a 700hp car? lol
only reason i posted it was this "my timing doesnt go over 38-40 degrees and i see you have 46-50." just a reminder that you ecm will clip the timing at the max limit, no matter what you put in any tables.
as for the base timing. i guess that doesn't really matter either, as long as it fires up fine and doesn't crank like it has to much timing when hot. but its also a turbo car, so the low comp should help that. but i would make sure what you have in the reference field matches what your running at the dizzy with the bypass unplugged. if those two numbers don't match. then your real timing won't match what you type in the timing table. i'd also check your data log to make sure it running what you type in the main table. there's a few temp tables that can pull timing based on air temp and stuff.
Orr: I also think your car will feel better with more timing in cruise area, some says bigger bore will need more timing ? I'm running about 42 in my latest tune, tried to increase it to get my EGT down some but didnt help much so I left it there, will continue tuning next year........
In code 59 there is also a PE adder, I have set it to "0" to make things easier. Also the SA vs IAT I've set to 0 until the IAT gets hot, normally this is set to -2 deg and will subtract 2deg all the time from main SA table.
My dizzy is set to 10deg, car dont want to idle with 6deg .......
__________________ GTA -89:415cui 749ECM+$59code+ p/h injectors+Procharger F1
as for the base timing. i guess that doesn't really matter either, as long as it fires up fine and doesn't crank like it has to much timing when hot. but its also a turbo car, so the low comp should help that. but i would make sure what you have in the reference field matches what your running at the dizzy with the bypass unplugged. if those two numbers don't match. then your real timing won't match what you type in the timing table. i'd also check your data log to make sure it running what you type in the main table. there's a few temp tables that can pull timing based on air temp and stuff.
Yeah, it matches the dizzy i made sure of that. My first time it didnt match my dizzy because i set it wrong... :doh, but now its good.
I dont have any crank problems, just battery voltage problems at night mainly. I need a higher output alternator, i think this stock one is on its way to death lol
I zero'd out my coolant advance table and zero'd out my PE mode advance to work strickly with F1 table.
I'll try my hand at cruise tuning abit tonight.. dont want to waste too much time with that since boost tuning is much more fun and I got my controller now
Ok, that's it, I WILL get my test bench running this weekend, to test a few things...
But I think that if you "zero out" the F2 table, you will actually be removing about 20 degrees from overall timing. I had to add 1.6* to the F2 table, then subtract the same from the F1 table to have my timing relative to TDC match the F1 table.
Check to see what your timing relative to TDC is, and actual timing at the crank.
__________________ If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Logs show the same timing as F1 table, but actual timing at the balancer has not been confirmed... i'll have to look into that to make sure. Based on how this car performed at the track, I cant imagine the timing is incorrect. If I was severely down on timing, I'd notice it I'm sure.
F2 table was showing like 2.4 degrees pulled and thats why my readings in my datalogs were always 2.4 degrees less than what i had in the F1 table. Seems to work right now but will verify later today hopefully
I now have decent part throttle all the way to about 2600 rpms or so, dont cruise any faster than that. heavy part throttle above that starts spooling turbo and air fuel is fine up there.
Twaked my tables to get 36-38 degrees timing in the 2000+ rpm range at low maps for cruise, and it seemed to help but my main problem was VE was off. Some rich and some lean spots mixed made the car jumpy/surgey while driving so I smoothed everything out.
Car is pulling 4 deg timing now at cruise but feels just fine so is the knock sensor too sensitive on Code $59? I may take out a degree or so but also may desensitize the knock attack and improve the recovery rate
Got cold start somewhat fixed. Cranks abit more than i want but probly just needs more fuel. Had to increase the VE in the 400 rpm/90-101KPA area to match close to my idle VE and it fires up pretty good now.
Car still runs hot after driving alittle while...so timing alone didnt sold my heat issue. 20 min drive and its up in the 180's and its fairly cold outside here. I think the intercooler is not passing air to the rad and I need to get the secondary fan on. I may put a small fan behind the intercooler to help suck air through the intercooler which should blow back to the radiator...
Pleased to see I set my boost controller correctly.. still seeing 10 psi so i adjusted it right to base setting. Going to crank it up shortly, car felt very strong tonite, my buddy was like holy s....! haha. But I think my rear end is starting to go. Not sure tho, something on turns makes a noise every now and then Hope the rear aint hurt...
I now have decent part throttle all the way to about 2600 rpms or so, dont cruise any faster than that. heavy part throttle above that starts spooling turbo and air fuel is fine up there.
Twaked my tables to get 36-38 degrees timing in the 2000+ rpm range at low maps for cruise, and it seemed to help but my main problem was VE was off. Some rich and some lean spots mixed made the car jumpy/surgey while driving so I smoothed everything out.
Car is pulling 4 deg timing now at cruise but feels just fine so is the knock sensor too sensitive on Code $59? I may take out a degree or so but also may desensitize the knock attack and improve the recovery rate
Got cold start somewhat fixed. Cranks abit more than i want but probly just needs more fuel. Had to increase the VE in the 400 rpm/90-101KPA area to match close to my idle VE and it fires up pretty good now.
Car still runs hot after driving alittle while...so timing alone didnt sold my heat issue. 20 min drive and its up in the 180's and its fairly cold outside here. I think the intercooler is not passing air to the rad and I need to get the secondary fan on. I may put a small fan behind the intercooler to help suck air through the intercooler which should blow back to the radiator...
Pleased to see I set my boost controller correctly.. still seeing 10 psi so i adjusted it right to base setting. Going to crank it up shortly, car felt very strong tonite, my buddy was like holy s....! haha. But I think my rear end is starting to go. Not sure tho, something on turns makes a noise every now and then Hope the rear aint hurt...
thanks for the update. I'm pretty happy to hear that its running good on such big high z injectors. untill you posted, I didn't even know they made 80pounders lol.
good stuff man. I'm hoping to be tuning on either mine or a buddys turbo car soon.
yeah, they seem to work just fine, just took me awhile to get used to tuning MAP stuff and making adjustments to VE in minor increments due to large 80lb injectors
So it can be done on this code, just have to take some time to do all the minor tuning and learn from your mistakes
Going to crank boost up 12-13 psi and see if pump gas likes it
Ok, that's it, I WILL get my test bench running this weekend, to test a few things...
But I think that if you "zero out" the F2 table, you will actually be removing about 20 degrees from overall timing. I had to add 1.6* to the F2 table, then subtract the same from the F1 table to have my timing relative to TDC match the F1 table.
Check to see what your timing relative to TDC is, and actual timing at the crank.
Depends on which $59 XDF you have. If you have the latest one, then the Spark BIAS is already taken into account on the F2 table so 0 in that table is 0 not -20.
__________________ Paul Schwab
93 Black/Black Typhoon #424 www.code59.org - Code Tester and XDF Creator
14psi, street tune 
