gta324

Hi..

Been reading hearing about the problem to connect to the 1227165 ECM and have now exp it for myself...

Started to tune my buddies new 383' engine and having some trouble to connect via ALDL. Tried diffrent cables, restarts and so on and after a while it connects....for a while then it looses the connecting again

10k resistor is in place.
Tried both with the serie and usb port.

So anyone have some hits/tips on how to connect and stay connected.

/N.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I wish that I had the answer.... and feel your pain.
I seem to be able to connect but staying connected continuously seems to be a problem.
I think that the cable is the problem. As mine is the original from Moates APu1 Autoprom.
I've been thinking about getting a replacement for awhile now.....

Hope someone else can chime in....

gta324

Dont think its the cable, since I have a moates, a 2-trans and a max232 cable all have the same problem.

Will continue to tune tha car tomorrow if the weather allows it, will do some more testing.

/N.

malibu2envy

So what is this 10k resistor I keep hearing about? I have tried to connect my ALDL cable so I can actually see whats going on and it NEVER works! I have all new parts from Moates so from statement above I don't think it's your cable. This software in my own opinion is NOT user friendly and everything that goes with it! Going from other software such as AEM, Hondata, K Pro, etc with everything built into the software to TunerPro just shows you get what you pay for. Or I am wrong and it's just because it's OBD1 old and must be this way.
I am pretty upset having $4,000 invested in just parts and not being able to get it tuned for my new daily driver.

Craig Moates

Hi Niklas,

Long time no chat, hope all is well!

If you are able to establish communications with the 165 at 8192 with the 10k and then it locks up after a period of time (could be 15 seconds or 15 minutes), welcome to the joy of the 165. Shut the key off for 15 seconds and turn it back on. The data will begin to flow again.

Regardless of cable or software, this seems to be a persistent issue for the 165. Some units 'clam up' more frequently than others. If you have a spare 165, try it and you will likely find it behaves either better or worse. Is it a UART on the ECM itself that locks up or gets hot? We don't know. A bug in the GM code for the bimodal 160/8192 protocols? Perhaps. The 165 is the only ECU this has been seen on as far as I know.

You won't be able to initiate logging at 8192 on the 165 without the 10k resistance applied between pins A and B. Data should flow through pin M or E. Once communications are established, the 10k can be de-exerted. However, it will be needed again if communication is lost or ECM power is cycled (keyoff).

To recap, if your 165 clams up at 8192, turn the key off for a few seconds and back on. It should reset. No need to restart PC, hardware, software, etc. Just power cycle the key/ECU to kick it back off. Or try a spare ECU.

If you can NOT get datalogging started (not what we're talking about here), the most common issues I see folks having are related to (read as checklist):
- Driver installation and configuration
- ADS/X definition file selection
- Setting up the software (TPRT, WinALDL, TTSDatamaster) to match up with the USB Serial (or other) port # settings as well as HW mode (MAX232 or APU).
- Getting the switch positions (10k, passthrough, APU, etc) all correct and matching SW settings and ECU need.

If anyone knows anything different, I'm happy to learn of it.

-Craig

Mangus

Here's another tidbit about the 8192 communications with the '165 (for those of you running $32B or $6E).

Executive summary: You might find that it takes a couple of connection attempts to get data flowing at 8192 baud.

Details: Even when you have everything properly in place regarding the 10K resistor and whatnot, connection can take a couple of attempts. This is because the '165 continuously streams data at 160 baud. In between 160 baud packets, the ECM listens at 8192 baud for around 50 milliseconds for a command to come in from the scanner (PC software in our case). If no command comes in, it returns to streaming data at 160 baud. If a command is detected at 8192 baud, the ECM responds to that message and ceases all communication at 160 baud.

With the properly created definition, TunerPro version 5 supports this connection scheme much better than version 4. With version 4, you may find tha tyou'll need to try connection a few times before successful data transfer is established. This could be exacerbated when running in AutoProm mode as well, since the AutoProm introduces a slight delay in the communication.

J_D_

Dont blame the hardware or the software. I use Datamaster and Tunerpro, the ECM doesnt care. I communicates when it feels like it. Pisses you off when it doesnt.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Craig & Magnus!
I thought that I was doing something wrong or had faulty equipment. I don't doubt your info for a second....

When you think that our ECMs' are 20+ years old and in the very infancy of GM's computer controlled fuel injection it doesn't surprise me that it has quirks..... Let alone work as well as it does!!!

Thanks guys for giving us the opportunity to dive into this stuff in the first place!!!

gta324

Amen to that remembering ECM852/winbin and then GMECM edit.....
Tuning now is soo much easier now!

All well Craig! Been busy with alot of other stuff(house/kids) but car is starting to run really strong now



Thx for the info! Will test TP5 and see if it connects better and I now know why it always connect in 160baud and not in 8192.....

Last time I tuned the car it seemd like it would always connect if I uploaded a new bin to emulator ( with disable checksum ) but could also just be a coincidence......

robertf

could it be the program? I've noticed on '730s and '427s that you don't need to handle ECM reply checksums or worry about chatter. Its lazy and sloppy, but it does seem to work. I don't know how everyone else handles comms in their programs, but maybe thats the problem?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I've found a swift kick does the job for me when it stops communicating. It doesn't reconnect, but I feel better!

Craig Moates

That's pretty funny!

Many times it seems that when I give a stern look toward a misbehaving bit, it straightens up. Other times, I've got to go so far as to raise my hand in a fist.

Cursing loudly seems to help as well. No substitute for the BFH, though.

juanillox8

iTrader: (7)

sorry to jump in all of a sudden but does anybody has a driver for the connector i wanna use it via usb but i dont have communication between aldl and pc... pm please.

88formula305tpi

My 165' locks up after about 10 seconds with 8192 baud.
How is anyone tuning if they cant record data?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Playing with the 165 again tonight on a friends car. Nice running heads/cam L98 with Stealth ram.

One day I had a datalog of maybe 15 min before it disconnected on me and I couldnt reconnect.

Tonight it connected first try for 2 min and then shut off..... would not connect again for the next 2 hrs no matter what we did. Shut car off several times while we tuned, reburned the chips as necessary and I restarted tuner pro several times, restarted my computer 1 time.

Would not connect. BIG PITA when trying to tune WOT and dont know if its going to like the timing curve or not. Cant see what the MAF is doing, but I know its maxing out from last logs. Just would be nice to see it again here tonight.

Best thing I did was buy wideband o2 sensor and tune OPEN loop. However, even doing that you need to see the MAF grams/sec for idle and part throttle, or else you are tuning blind and just guessing. After that, for WOT tuning, I just used PE mode enrichment vs RPM. Change that and watch air fuel gauge. Fairly easy to do.

J_D_

Larety, with Datamaster, Ive been switching COM ports. Yesterday it hooked up fine and ran 5 minutes before it quit. I turned off the car, switched the COM port to 3 and then back to 5. Restarted and logged another 10 minutes or so till I was done. Last few logs, playing with Com ports seem to get it going.

MikeT 88IROC350

Here is my experience with this. Just got TP RT ver 5 going, on newer (but still old) laptop with XP on it. Tried two datalogs, (road tests), and it stopped com just under 5 minutes into the record. It does seem to connect up ok at 8192 baud, shortly after I attempt it. I do recall the same problem with TP ver 4.xx. Actually I havent done alot of logging with TP, beleive it or not. Since it wasn't working reliably, I went back to my old scan tool from EASE Diagnostics. It is a commerical tool for GM OBDI. I have it since 1999. Can scan any GM from 82-95. It connects up fine, records and logs data. I use it for all my part throttle tuning. Now there is no adjustabilitiy with EASE, so you get what you get. But it does have a nice averaging feature when looking at recordings, to see what the BLM/INT comes out.
I would actually prefer to use TP, since you get LOTs of adjustibility, and the big plus is having my LM1 WB AFR readings right there to gaze out. So I try to use that more for WOT tuning. So I am not giving up on TP RT at all, just dealing with it. Now I know others having same problem. But you can't just turn the key off/on, wait a few secs, then scan when you are cruising on down the highway at 65........

Mangus

I appreciate your expressed loyalty, but as mentioned, this is not a software problem. This is a 1227165 problem. My car runs a 1227165, and I've been through numerous ECMs and have helped at least two local people with precisely the same problem. It's the ECM.

Mangus

Most likely switching off the car (and then back on again) is what got it going.

J_D_

Did it again today. Switched COM port to 3 and back to 5. Never even turned the car off. This is Datamaster not Tunerpro. Tunerpro RT is great but I was using Datamaster for quite a while before you released Tunerpro so I still use it. Also using a real old AKM cable with a Belkin USB - Serial adapter.

MikeT 88IROC350

Well thanks, I beleive you on the ECM. Computers arent perfect. I am not giving up on TP RT. Just gotta hope for the best, that it connects and stays connected long enough to get some good data. It doesnt take that long to get some good WOT data logged.

dyeager535

Since I really started delving into tuning my '165-based setup, I see the same issue everyone else does...datalogging freezes at some point (2 minutes to a half hour after starting) and the only way to reconnect is to key off for quite a few seconds, then back on, and it will then connect.

I'm not holding out hope, but this is an "original" '165. I've got a GM replacement ECM that is a different part number, and it has at least some different components on it's board. I'll be swapping it out just to see if it makes any difference.

I swapped it out. No change. I need to go with another ECM, impossible to freeway tune when it keeps locking up.

malibu2envy

I have the same problem however mine will NEVER connect! I have had Craig from Moates on the phone with him controling my own laptop and he can't even get it to connect. All settings are correct, and I have tried a second 165 computer from a friends car that runs fine and it also does not connect in my car. The friends car is stock and he has no software he is trying to tune but the computer is fine, and I may add that my car ran perfect with the factory 305 engine. Anybody have any ideas?

Mangus

Craig has likely already run through it with you, and I'm betting he mentioned that you should check the connections between the ALDL connector and the ECM.

Otherwise, suspect your interface and your PC. Try a handheld scanner to see if it will hook up. That will verify that the connections are OK. Try a different PC. That will verify that the PC is OK. Last, try a different interface cable.

Calderone

Guys,i have the 165 and TP4
ALDL TO USB Moates cable

Its a PITA to connect but i found that the only way that works for me is that
i have to reconfigure ports everytime i need to datalog.
On windows xp driver device and tuner pro itself.
For example i choose Cable and port, and test for a working cable,if it works
i plug it into the ALDL port at my car.
Then turn the key and launch tuner pro and hit connect.
And suddenly its there,but i have to asign the ports everytime i need to datalog.

82_Camaro

bringing this one back from the dead.

i have an issue keeping a connection via aldl. im trying to just show data but then it loses connection. then the rpms start rising. if that doesnt happen it backfires out of one of the throttle bodies and shuts off. do i have 2 seperate problems or are they related. im thinking after seeing this thread that the aldl problem is normal and that maybe i need to set the timimg, i just rebuilt my engine. put a whole new cam kit in it. not sure whats going on. when the car was running it held connection but then when i started the car it lost it after about 15 seconds. that only happened twice

its an 82 z28 with crossfire

TORN

iTrader: (17)

I just ran into this over on Gearhead-efi.com wonder if this fixed alot of the problems people were having with getting the data to stream and to stop random disconnects.

I never have problems with getting my autoprom to connect but it does disconnect at random times and I have to reconnect to start data logging again.

http://forum.tunerpro.net/viewtopic.php?t=2215

IROZINCO

iTrader: (1)

i just got an ALDL cable and some software. Mine isn't pausing, it just wont connect AT ALL. Testing says port is fine, but hardware is not connected. I bet i've installed 3 different drivers sets (the one that cable with the ALDL cable, and the one that came with the OBD1 software) and still NADA. I've even tried testing with hyperterm, and it SEES stuff coming across the link (the character depends on the baud rate) But i cant get tunerpro, scanmaster, or anything else i've tried to connect. It all says same thing, cannot detect hardware. Its win XP, usb-ALDL cable (ordered from aldlcable.com) on a 1987 IROC 5.7TPI/auto, with the 165 ECU. I've tried no jumper, jumper normal, jumper as a 10k resistor, nada. If i didn't get SOMETHING across hyperterm i'd guess it was a bad cable, but at this point i'm thinking something with the drivers. So for those of you who have done ALDL, is there some magic you have to do to get it to actually SEE the cable???

RJMcEachern

IROZINOCO,

I have the same cable from the same vendor, it works like a champ on my 91 K3500 truck with TBI, but the 87 GTA I spent 2 hours trying it last night to no avail, finally pulled the ECU and will crack it open tonight to see if it has the correct prom, it is marked on the outside with a GM sticker 1227165, if you can get yours to connect let me know please

Tuner Pro RT 5.0 can test the cable and when I try to connect it just sits there connecting... never connects

Thanks
RJMcEachern

Calderone

it should connect , no matter which prom is there

RJMcEachern

yea, the operative word being "should", lol...connects great to the 91 K3500 truck, but couldn't get it to connect to the 87 GTA, in all fairness, i used version 4.0 to do the work on the truck and just switched to the verison 5 software last night before trying it on the GTA so I might not have some communication setting in the new version set correctly

RJMcEachern

Calderone

Yes , you can try again , what annoys me the most is that sometimes
i'm datalogging and cuts of for no reason ...i got a new laptop and will have to check
if that was the problem. Hope you solve your issue soon !

RJMcEachern

any tips or hints on communication settings? at this point I can't even get the stupid thing to connect once, let alone datalog...

Calderone

it take a while to communicate , suddenly it connects
but its a big fight to do it

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

are you using a 10K resister to start data flow out of pin E of the aldl 160 baud.

RJMcEachern

I believe I am, but am not 100% sure, I am still learning and researching and reading, at this point I am only trying to datalog and check readings from sensors to ensure they are in the correct value range...here is a link to the cable I am using, I have tried the jumper in all various possible configurations with no success, the PO could have replaced the chip with an aftermarket chip so that is why I pulled the ECU from the car, so I can visually check and ensure that it is the correct chip and I am using the correct XDf and ADS files.

http://www.aldlcable.com/sc/details.asp?item=aldlobd1u

RJMcEachern

P.S.,

I hope I am not jumping this thread, I do greatly appreciate any insight or advice given.

EDIT: I just found the PDF for the cable and according to this no I am not jumpering it in 10k resistance mode, thanks tunedperformanc for the lead on this.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

what is the broadcast code on the memcal ? The three too four letters on the silver sticker ? if it is the original memcal it is $32b

RJMcEachern

I will find out tonight when I get home and get the cover off, I will post a reply then, I will also (DOH!) try the (correct) jumper setting for the 10k resistance...

RJMcEachern

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

the 10k goes from the mode sense B on the aldl connector to A ground.

RJMcEachern

got it to connect, failed a few times, then all of a sudden just worked, was able to capture a quick log while it idled and just revved, TPS was at .55 and IAC was at 145 position, dont know if this is normal, but i did replace the IAC and have not set minimum air yet, tomorrow i plan on setting the TPS if necessary and setting minimum air on the IAC, I still need to put the new plug wires on before i make any other adjustments, the rectangular cover for the memcal is like stuck to the housing and I wasnt comfortable prying the cover off, i did take the duracrap battery that was in it to the electronic shop and of course it tested bad so i got a new Interstate battery for it.

thanks for the input and hint, it was what I needed
EDIT: the prom ID in Tuner Pro RT is identified as 8201, is the cover for the memcal usually stuck on there?
RJMcEachern

Blade09

Just throwing this out there, I don't know if it is your problem though. My issue was that my laptop decided to set the com3 and com4 ports in the device mgr to other random components of my laptop (lenovo W520). That being said, the Moates info states the usb bus needs to be connected to com3 or com4 for it to work properly. I set it to overlap with whatever else was set to com3 (or 4 I don't recall). This could be an issue if both items were running at the same time but I doubt I will ever be datalogging and doing something else at the same time.

After that it worked like a charm. Now I just have to learn how to read my logs lol.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

you dont need to remove the memcal cover you just need too look through the window on the memcal cover. there are two tabs on each side of the memcal cover to remove it but it's not needed unless you needed access to the eprom to uv erase. The 8201 scan id is for a ABWT broadcast code firebird/ trans am l98 5.7L gas 8 cyl mfi, with MD8 auto 4 spd thm 700 R4, with NA5 Federal Requirements. This is a $32b definition .bin , What is the issue with the car high idle ?

RJMcEachern

my box has a rectangular cover with two scrrews on it and the rectangular cover is metal, no window, unless it is under the black mount bracket that bolts to the computer box?

RJMcEachern

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

it the center of the ecm there is a rectangular cover with a 7mm screw on each side. If this is the one you are saying is stuck you can gently pry on the edge with a small screwdriver and the acess cover will come off revealing the memcal.

RJMcEachern

BAM!

Thats it exactly, thanks again tunerperformanc, i now have soooo many things on my to do list this weekend. new plug wires, set minimum air on IAC, set TPS, get the cover off and check memcal, so many things so little time, also learning the Tuner Pro RT, going to setup a custom dash in my panel to use on a notebook to keep in the car.

RJMcEachern

RJMcEachern

ok so i set the base IAC minimum air and the TPS to .22 according to Tuner Pro RT and using this:

https://www.thirdgen.org/tpimod2

the memcal is a
Delco
ABWT
8674

Now just need to cut the new plug wires to length and get them on tomorrow night after work, the exhaust is still POS ghetto but functional (some what anyways)...no power, barely got it to 60 mph, shift is real hard between gears, got it into 4th though so making progress, this is first drive since pulling it off the trailer...idling at 900 though with temp sensor reading 183.4, need to check for vacuum leaks now

RJMcEachern

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

why did you set the tps feedback so low ?

RJMcEachern

the write up says between 0.54 and 0.075 so i picked middle of the road, where should it be set? it was originally reading 0.55 using Tuner Pro RT to measure it, it did go up as high as 3.89 at WOT

EDIT:

DOH!!! I just realized it said at 0.54v, +/- 0.075v...i feel like such an idiot, oh well can reset it back easily enough tomorrow first thing

RJMcEachern

ok, TPS set back to 0.55, could not get it to set to 0.54, so went with that, installed MSD coil Street Fire off dist. coil mount, during the process i noticed the 2 wire connector (pink and white) connector to the coil had one bad wire, someone had cut the wire connector and put a sleeve type connector on but shorted the wire by about 3", so soldered inline a 3" splice (better than it was), not perfect but works better than it did, the wire was only connected by two of the 8 strands with a sleeve crimp connector, cut the wire near the harness and soldered that in, then tried to get as close as possible a cut near the connector (almost impossible), but was able to solder in a ghetto piece, i ordered a replacement connector
http://www.repairconnector.com/produ...M-1985-Up.html

so will be able to replace the shoddy workmanship from the PO to something a little more respectable

still running rich/lean according to Tuner Pro RT 5, but have only driven it on our lot and not even out on road where i can open it up... tomorrow will be the plug wires, first thing and then I think I should probably do a baseline of the timing, IAC and check for any vacuum leaks, something isn't right cause I have no power what so ever, and it takes forever to develop RPM's...

RJMcEachern

syntax terror

I am running a 165 with a different code and once I have the com ports set right and the rs232 echo checked under the edit adx menu i don't have a problem. I am running $12p and don't use the 10k resister.