GTA

Hi all,

I have a question. I have a 92 7730 ecm Hard wired Innovate WB and am currently running SAUJP V5. Is this Bin/ECM able to run a boosted application?
I am tossing around the idea of throwing some boost at it but i worry about fuel control...i DO not want to use a fuel management control, i want to be able to control the tune via my ECM is this possible? BTW it would be a Procharger, Stage 2 Intercooled 3 core, on a modded Super Ram 350. Also i have a Racetronix high output fuel system in place...i hope it will flow enough fuel...opinions welcome..thank you. GTA

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

the 730 can run code $58 or $59 which are boost capable with 2-3bar maps. SAUJP stuff, I have yet to see anyone use it with boost in mind. There was a claim of someone here who developed it but never seen results or seen the modifications.

GTA

Thanks Orr,

Has any one done exactly this...run a 7730 ecm and code 58/59? Which is better i know very little about the code 58/59 stuff i am much more familiar with
AUJP/SAUJP....i must do more reading on this 58/59 stuff. what about types of injectors ( bigger #42 ) can the 7730 ecm drive safely?? ....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'm doing that exact thing on my car right now. i was MAF 165 and I converted to 730 and plugged in the code $59 chip and went to town. Runs great. I have 80lb injectors and it idles fine although abit higher than I want (~1000 rpm but the car likes it when I should beable to get down to 800)

The code is abit different than any of the 8D stuff you may be used to but if you can tune MAP you can tune code $59. I never tuned a map car til i started on my 401 twin setup.... There are a few things to change in the base bin file you can get on code $59.org since its designed for a V6. few changes to make it a V8 and go from there.

GTA

Ok, silly question time..

If i want to run 9 psi boost and use SAUJP ( retard spark tables and add fuel via ve ) would this not work as well? I know the VE runs out at 100 KPA and in a boosted application VE will go higher? would it still not work out in the end?
I do have a WB that shows in my data log live info, as long as i use big enough injectors i should be ok..?? am i wrong in thinking this...Code 59 kinda scares me
I dont want to repin or lose my ccp and other options....GTA

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You can run a 1 BAR code with boost, but fueling will not be matched to actual manifold pressure, since you can get to 100 KPA at 4000 RPM, or you can get to 200 KPA at 4000 RPM, depending on conditions and transitions through driving around the same cells.

The only way to really run a 1 BAR code with boost and have fueling pretty close under all manifold pressure conditions would be to use an FMU.

Spark timing will also be effected in a similar fashion.

I have also ran $59 with a '7730. I'm using a '7749 currently, since I plan to run low-Z injectors and need the two injector drivers.

GTA

Thank you for the replies so far,

So what would you folks suggest as my best option, I want to run this procharger on my car...i'm not too crazy about the FMU...I would rather control the fuel in the ecm. What exactly would i need to aquire to run this? Code 59?
Is there rewiring? Or maybe i should just use the supplied FMU? hmmmm...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You will need a 3 BAR MAP sensor (code requires a 3 BAR), and maybe a pin change or two.
I think there was a change for the TCC when going from $8D to $59. Details can be found on the $59 site. www.code59.org

gta324

I also run $59

there are a few options using CCP with code59.



See signature of last years testdrive

Gumby

good info in here about $59 and a Ostrich 2.0 setup with a G1 MEMCAL adapter

-G1 adapter
-Ostrich 2.0
-ALDU1+CABL1 combo
-Tuner Pro RT (There used to be a discount for the registration of Tuner Pro when buying an Ostrich, so you might want to check into that.)


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...347-post6.html

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

I have a '7749 for sale

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...turbo-ecm.html

GTA

Ok, i'm back after some searching...and more questions of course!

1. My current 7730 ECM has the WB wired into pin F14 this can remain there and will work with code 59 correct?

2. I have found 2 conflicting stories re Code 59, One says no pins need to be moved, and another says a few do, which is correct and what pins are they?

3.I have down loaded the XDF/ADS from Code 59.org are these the correct ones for V5?

a. XDF/ Code 59_3bar_1.6_V18.XDF

b. ADS/ Code 59.6 Beta TP5 ONLY.ADX

4. Exactly what options do i lose in going from SAUJP to Code 59?
I am currently all emissions legal and really wish to remain so.

5. I see a lot of the Code 59 users are running in open loop all the time, Does Code 59 use a WB feed back so it can operate in closed loop?

Thank you, that's all for now ....GTA

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yes, there are two pins available that can be selected in the code, F14 is one.

Some of this depends on how you're running the show. To switch to a '779 and P&H injector, there are definitely some pins that need to be changed. Also swapping from a '7730 to a '7749, the ALDL output needs to be swapped, it doesn't need to be if you stay with the '7730, IIRC. The outputs that definitely need to be changed have to to do with TCC/shiftlight. There is a sticky in the FAQ forum on the $59 site that addresses at least some of this.

a. XDF/ Code 59_3bar_1.6_V18.XDF

b. ADS/ Code 59.6 Beta TP5 ONLY.ADX[/quote]

Yeah those will work, though I think there is a non beta version of the ADX now.

At one point ther ewas CCP or AIR diverter valve that was lost, but I think this has been enabled again in later versions of $59, some earching on the $59 site, should get you the information you need.

Yes, there are some flags that can be set to use the WBO2 in closed loop. I tried it for a bit, but my tune wasn't close enough to leave it that way. I mostly use OL to get a very lean cruise going for economy reasons.

GTA

Six, thanks for the reply.

I am planning on just uploading the Code 59 into my 7730 ecm, This is the reason for all the questions....I think this may be the best soultion to running boost on my car. Has any one here run a combo like this and retained all of their emissions equipment and functions? With Code 59

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Staying with all emissions is not going to be easy with $58 or $59. More so with $58 as it won't run EGR on an 8-cylinder, there is no CCP, and I don't see any A.I.R. control in it either.

As for $59, I know that the EGR has been patched so it works with an 8-cylinder engine. However, I don't believe that CCP or dual solenoid A.I.R. has been added.

The most straight forward approach is to use an EBL P4 Flash. This will run all emissions equipment (EGR, CCP, & A.I.R.), plus it is set up for the dual fans and A/C control. No swapping of wires required. And provides for a 1-bar, 2-bar or 3-bar MAP sensor.

RBob.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I cant comment on the emissions stuff or the pin swap for the 700r4. I dont use any of those things anymore.
I also havent tried wideband closed loop as I dont think my tune is close enough yet either.

Hmm thts newer than the one I got. Think its time I get back on code59.org

GTA

RBOB, hi

With this EBL P4 Flash I would be able to retain all of my SAUJP functions and run a boosted application? How exactly does this work? Do i just purchase one of your your ECM's replace my 7730 with this upload the SAUJP bin and go? Is it that simple? I really like the SAUJP stuff, but i kinda want to look at going boosted in the near future, so is this a direct plug and play set up ? My car is a 1992 7730 ecm and i am currently running a moates adapter Ostrich 2.0 and a wireless BT, i like what i see....please tell me more?

oh and i also have a innovate WB that is already hardwired into F14 and it works perfectly with TP/RT V5...which is what i am running with a windows 7 lappy......GTA

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL systems are provided with their own ECM firmware. Along with the ECU/XDF files, documentation, base calibrations, and the What's Up Display (WUD). The WUD is used for flashing calibrations, data logging, display of engine/ECM variables (RPM, MPH, CTS, ...), and data analysis.

Tuner Pro is used to make changes to the calibration, which is then flashed in with the WUD. Can also read calibrations out via the WUD.

You can purchase a ready-to-go ECM with the EBL P4 already installed. Can send in your ECM to have us do the install, or do the install yourself. The install guide is on our web site.

The EBL P4 Flash system supports all of the factory emissions equipment. I'm not sure which features of SAUJP you like, but the EBL has VE and fueling boost tables to 8,000 RPM, will display the WB reported AFR via the WUD, has a trip display that shows miles/Km traveled and fuel consumption.

RBob.

GTA

I think, I have found my answer There is going to be some tuning equip for sale soon. Thanks GTA

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I ran the 2-bar $8D that Junkcltr modified a couple of years ago. It worked.

I'm not sure if he ever released it to public domain.

One day I'll probably try either an EBL or a Megasquirt. I used to think the MS was lame, but the newer software is just absolutely amazing and light years ahead of even the super expensive aftermarket stuff.

Some, like a younger me, will argue that OEM code is better for street cars and that is probably true, but the last few combos I build won't even run feedback/closed loop fueling so a lot of that stuff is 'out the window'.

The next car I build, will probably be a first gen with a stupid twin turbo small block, so really all we care about is cold starts and keeping the rings from sticking to the cylinder walls


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I agree... i only need 4 things from my EFI car.... Must cold start and hot start, must idle smooth, must provide proper fueling at all conditions, and must provide proper timing at all conditions


Everything else really isnt needed . I dont run closed loop either.

But I'm sure the little functions all help to create a great driving experience..IAC/TPS control and the AE functions all help with driveability.

I'd like to try the $8D code for boost tho, even tho $59 does everything I need so far.

funstick

Fixing up $8d for use with boost is as simple as locking down the Baro update so that it cannot change while the engine is being run, only during key up should it record Baro. Once you accomplish that, the map sensor in use is irrelevant and adressing the XDF to reflect the map sensor is all thats is required.

I never got all the hoopla around this. Maybe I'll post up a binary later.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You need to make sure you don't miss every single condition that references MAP voltage, and half them all. Without a darn perfect commented decompile, I'd be too weary of missing something.

My approach would be to run the 2bar on a different input, read the value in, spit a multiplied value to the memory address 99.9% of the $8D code looks at, and just create a bpw multiplier table when the map is > 100kpa.


Too bad nobody has a mask written in C.


-- Joe

funstick

I just got done doing another one, I'll post up the binary and XDF. Its not a big deal to do this.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Interested to see that.
Can you throw some logs in as well.
thx,
Jp

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So you absolutely got every single stupid condition that references MAP ?

Did they remove the BPW adder in the $59 code and just run a 3-bar VE ?


-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You mean F77? No, it's still there, and expanded.

I'm also interested in seeing a boost enabled $8D.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I had thought at one point they expanded the VE table, and disabled the BPW boost multiplier.

$58 had great spark control under boost, but it's boost fueling was ultimately an FMU

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Glad to see your back....

funstick

Ok, lets make this simple. It takes a bit of screwing around and a good working knowledge of the airflow term, you also have to repurpose a few fuel tables to get the adjustment you need. It'll take me a few days to edit the XDF files and the ads as I just do this from sight. I don't worry to much about absolute numbers. If the car runs good at the end of the day, its better then a fmu/btm and all the other penaltys that come with the $58 code base of which there are more then a few.

I am only currently using a 2bar sensor, but I geuss one could use a 3bar, but the airflow terms get even screwier. But the point is, this does work, I have done it many times and the customer is always happy. that siad the fueling gets a little grainy with some .25 point deviations at low airflow amounts, but there becuase the airflow term is limited to 255grs/sec and without doing serious coding work , read not worth the effort, its as good as most after market ecu's and its extremly budget.

So its not the holy grail, but its also a workable solution. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

They did expand the VE table, with fueling points up to 300 KPA, much better than the FMU effect of $58. F77/F71x is still enabled, and it too has been expanded. By all rights, F77x could be set to a multiplier of 1.00 all the way through and use just F29x table to control all fueling.
That reminds me, I need to see where my F77x table is set in the higher boost that I'm hitting now, could explain a few things... lol

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yeah. I spent a lot of years with $58 and Bruces (RIP) $60, and it just wasnt worth all the hassles and weirdness surrounding $58 to have just a BPW multiplier. I had no use for any of the turbo related control.

$8D with a 2-bar VE table could be quite useful if I get bored of my 412 SBC and decide to put big pig chamber heads on it, a smaller cam, and a stupid big blower.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep i run just the VE table all the way to 230 KPA so far..

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Sorry to bring this back but I had to ask.

How exactly does that 'work' ??

Like, under boost what is the ve values? Since the second you enter boost you are > 100% VE.


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

For some reason with the one table called "egr vs base pulsewidth" or whatever it is, thats suppose to be like your "injector" constant. I left it as it came from the base code$59 bin. For the new setup i lowered it abit but it does not match my injectors value.

So with that i just scaled the v6 bin which was set for 60lb injectors. Initially i multiplied everything by .75 since 60/80 is .75. Eventually i got the car to fire and i got an idea what idle map was and what ve it needed to be. The steps between cells sucked from the v6 bin so i took a 730 tpi l98 ve table and copied it in the scaled it down til the idle ve matched about what i found from the v6 bin.

My new setup idles at 1000 rpm and 64 kpa. Ve value is only 23-24. By 101 kpa its only in the 40's or so by 4000 rpm. 60 at 140 kpa and 4000 rpm so far but its rich! So i am not exceeding 100 yet.
My old setup even at 215 kpa never saw over 70 ve for whatever reason

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

"VE" is really a misnomer, it's not really a representation of actual engine volumetric efficiency, it's just what the tables were called.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is an acceptable answer.

The problem here, is years of trying to accept that $8D has a cylinder volume constant, an injector size, then a table that tries to represent actual VE. It's quite a reasonable theory, but then when you say $59 has an 'expanded' VE table to 300kpa, it's only possible if the VE number can exceed 100%.

Since it appears you use 0-100 over the whole table, I guess naming it "Fuel value" would be more appropriate, although I think at this point I'd prefer "INJ duty cycle" like some of the aftermarket.

Off hand, if you have a handle on the CFM requirements of a motor/cam combo, can you calculate boost from compressor CFM ? I'm curious exactly *how much* boost a P1SC would add to my 412, and if using $59 is worth it over modified $8D.

-- Joe

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That isn't entirely correct either. It is the volumetric efficiency of the engine. Just not to barometric pressure, but to the intake manifold pressure. Which is why the induction side of the ECM fueling calculation is immune to changes in barometric pressure.

RBob.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't get what you are saying. If the pressure is anything other than baro, than isn't VE out the window?

I have 843cc per cylinder, so at 100KPA manifold pressure am I not at 100% VE?

Surely I should be > 100% VE under any boost level, since I've filled and exceeded 843cc of air at barometric pressure.

Or maybe I'm looking at this wrong...

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

A little confused with the question, do you mean that you are trying to calculate the Volumetric Efficiency of your engine with the supercharger beforehand, then use that calculation to determine how much boost it would take, or is taking, the supercharger to accomplish this? Are you worried that the smaller P1SC compressor map will hinder performance of the larger engine? There are a number of equations that will help figure this out, but there are also a lot of variables though...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

In the carb days VE is relative to barometric pressure. In the GM EFI ECMs VE is relative to the intake manifold pressure.

The VE will be 100% when the chamber pressure becomes the same as the intake manifold pressure. If the manifold pressure is 50Kpa and the chamber pressure ends up at 50 KPa, then the VE is 100%.

If the chamber pressure ends up at 25 KPa then the VE is 50%.

The key to all of this is that the MAP value is used as part of the PW calculation. That is the part that makes the VE relative to manifold pressure.

There are stock GM TBI calibrations (Caprice L05 engines) where the VE drops off as the manifold pressure goes over 85 KPa. If VE was relative to baro pressure this wouldn't happen.

There is a discussion of this on a thread someplace here on the DIY_PRO board.

Back to S/C'ers, if the manifold pressure is 200 KPa and the chamber ends up at 200 KPa, then the VE is 100%.

This is likely why GM used a PW multiplier table. Just use the 100 KPa column of the VE table which is going to be real close. And add some fuel to drop the AFR via the multiplier for the boost.

RBob.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So we know the airflow requirements at RPM of a given engine because we know the head flow, displacement, stroke, and camshaft timing points.

We also roughly know the CFM of the supercharger at a given pulley speed.

How do you calculate the boost pressure that the manifold will see?

If for example, I knew that the combo would make 8psi I'd probably make different calibration and fuel system decisions than if it showed 15 or 20 psi.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That makes sense. So it's a dynamic (VE) based on MAP value.

So you really can't actually calculate VE since you have no way of knowing what the pressures are actually in the cylinder, so the VE numbers are theoretical based on cyl volume, map value, and target AFR..

Hrmm..

So which method do you prefer? A VE table that stops at 1BAR with a pulsewidth multiplier for > 100kpa, or a VE table that goes 2-3BAR ?


-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

$59 gives you both options depending one which tables you select to use.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A fuel PW multiplier table from 100 Kpa through 200 or 300 KPa along with RPM. This table is used to either add or subtract from the PW.

Need to be able to subtract as some engine set ups have the VE dropping like a rock as the manifold goes into boost.

One thing to remember about boost is that it is a result of restriction to flow.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The only way I can see this being done would be by somehow obtaining an actual mass air flow reading at a given RPM naturally aspirated, then calculating the g/sec into volumetric flow (CFM), then using that figure in the VE formula of (3456 x CFM) / (CID x RPM). Compare this figure with the suggested amount of CFM being provided by the P1SC at that same engine speed and this should give you your actual boost pressure...

Gumby

I was feeling really smart today, after reading the thread updates, I feel dumb as ever.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

And I wasn't feeling too smart, now I have a headache.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Very interested in the second comment about being able to subtract as some engine setups have ve dropping like rock as goes into boost.

I am just experiencing that now and I thought it was odd but figured it was due to 2 things...my new injectors being so much larger than before and the fact that at 4-5psi my second fuel pump kicks on and I think its spiking my fuel pressure, thus increasing fuel amount.

My VE table in $59 is steadily increasing til about 120 KPA then for some reason its too rich after that so it kinda flatlines abit. Then increases a slight amount at 140-150 kpa. Very small steps in VE compared to 90-120 KPA areas.
I was starting to see things get PIG rich at 3500-3600 and 135-140 KPA. Off the charts rich. Pulled so much fuel today I cant believe it and its still rich. Cars feeling stronger with each tune but fuel requirements doesnt seem to line up with what I expected especially compared to the old combo. VE was flat up top on old setup but increased to 150kpa for the most part before leveling out.

The richness is so bad I enabled the boost multiplier table and instead of making everything 1 like before, at 132 KPA I have .98 and at 148 and higher its .92. Its pulling 8% out of the VE table for KPA's above 148, and still my VE table is flat after 120 KPA. If I didnt do this I'd have a VE table nosing downward after 120 KPA column

Its an ODD map to look at but its giving the motor what it wants/needs. Just curious as to why that would be the case, because with my heads/cam/intake, i'd expect peak TRQ to be in the 4500 rpm range and its not looking that way on my graph so far. It went rich there instead of lean

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

From what I have seen, volumetric efficiency is normally inversely proportional to RPM, but will sometimes see it drop as RPM increases depending on the valve events of your camshaft...