Timmie

ok, I have a 91 V6 camaro with 3.1 in it and stock chip.
problem is the car is modified ( headers, intake, camshaft, etc etc )
and I need to reprogram my car to let it run right.

so the last 2 weeks I tried to edit some bins just to get the feeling of playing with the values.


so, yesterday my moates burn 2 and 2 27sf512 chips arrived and ti was time to start the chip reading / writing.

I took out my original chip 27C256 , put it in the prom reader, and read the chip.
and I got the bin. ( named it stock91camaro.bin
loaded it up in tunerpro RT with XDF $88.xdf and $88V2.1.adx ( I can also use the standard $88.adx )


I changed some values to start with.
lowered van turn on temp to 100 degrees and turn of to 95 degrees.
disabled the knock sensor atm ( different story altogether )

and I saved this bin under knocksensor.bin


now I put in a 27sf512 chip, I erased the chip completely ( from 000000 to 00FFFF

then I do a blank check.


then I load my new bin to the buffer and write the chip.
chip addressing
start adress HEX 008000
end adres HEX 00FFFF

buffer addressing
start address in hex 000000
end address HEX 007FFF


then I program the chip.
and when I check, the chip is indeed programmed.

but when I put it in my car, the car goes into limb home mode.
I put the original chip back in the car, and it fires back up like normal.


so what am I doing wrong here ?

in the attachement the files that I use and created.


does anybody know why my ecm wouldnt see my chip or inmediatly goes into limb home mode ?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Try programming the EEPROM with the stock bin, get that to work first then try to modify a bin. You may be modifying something that is causing a LHM situation.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I've looked at your bins and they look fine.

Why did you disable the knock sensor? Nothing that you have mentioned that you have done with your car would require that, nor desensitizing it.

What program are you using to interface with the BURN2? I have found that sometimes I need to use the Flash 'n' Burn software instead of Tuner Pro in order to get proper communications and programming solutions.

The offsets should be set automatically when you select the proper EEPROM and when loading the bin file, which it seems like they are. http://support.moates.net/programmin...using-offsets/

I still suggest program an EEPROM with the stock bin and get that to work first, then you know the programming side, hardware wise is good.

Timmie

ok, update,
I wrote a stock bin, nothing edited and uploaded it to chip.
and the car ran, eraticly but it ran.

then I wrote another chip where I edited 1 flag where I put the knock sensor ( code 43 check ) off.

put the chip into the car, put contact on, and my fan inmediatly kicked in == Limb home mode.


WTF, is wrong with this and why cant I get this ****ing chip to work.

I use flash&burn to write the chips. and I edit them in tunerpro.

I played with the offset myself writing it in the first part and in the last part of the chip, but nothing helps.
I even made a stacked bin with 2 times the same program in it.
really non of these things helps.




this whole car is a disaster for a couple of years now and im thinking of just cutting the thing to bits.


the reason I want to disable the knock sensor is because my car pics up a false knock in the engine. pulling my timing away and making my car undrivable.

Ive been throwing money at this piece of **** for 3 years and I cant seem the get it to work correctly.


so can sombody please look at this what Im doing wrong because else im going to cut this thing into pieces and never look back.

Timmie

im now using these adx and XDF files.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-tunerpro.html

Timmie

now i even used the stock $88 files from tunerpro itself

http://www.tunerpro.net/downloadBinDefs.htm

still no lock, the second I change 1 flag in min, the car goes in limb home mode.
dont een need to start it, I hear the fan kick in and I know where I am.


I really dont know how thi can be......
peeps im desperate here.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Are you placing the EEPROM in the socket correctly? Pin #1 towards the handle, but moved away from the handle so that there are a few rows of open contacts between the EEPROM and the handle end of the ZIF socket?

Are you placing the EEPROM in the G1 adapter correctly? Pin #1 closest to the edge of the G1 adapter?

Timmie

yes, notch in chip is facing the handle and the 2 top rowes are open.

and when I place the prom in the mempack, the notch is facing away from the memcall.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Remove that blue socket when programming. That has the potential to cause read/write problems.

If the blue socket is not soldered to the MEMCAL you will likely have connectivity problems there as well.

I find it best to use the G1 adapter that Moates sells, if a removable EEPROM is desired. The only other way I do it is to solder the EEPROM right into the MEMCAL and then use a HDR1 program the EEPROM. I have tried soldering a socket to the MEMCAL with mixed success. Either way the connection at the MEMCAL needs to be soldered, in order to assure a good connection.

Are you do a full erase, and blank chip verify before programming? I have found sometimes that some bytes don't get over written when re-programming if the EEPROM is not initially erased.

Timmie

if I do or do not remove the socket, the result stays the same.....
I know it might help, but atm im going to keep using the socket ( before I damage the chips feet )

and yes I always do a full erase of a chip before I program.
after that I check my chip against my pc to see if it matches

Timmie

can sombody check my stock v6 bin against there stock v6 bin ?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You have to have the socket soldered into the MEMCAL. As for the socket on the chip, I do the same thing. You can solder a socket to the MEMCAL, along with using one on the EPROM.

Here is AZTY, the latest calibration for your car.

RBob.

Timmie

I looked real quick trough both BINs and the only difference I see is that my prom ID is 721.00

and the 730AZTY is 1331.00

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Use the Tuner Pro difference tool. That will show all differences. Note that the prom ID doesn't matter, it isn't used by the ECM.

RBob.

Timmie

jut used the difference tool, and looks like I got
10141 items that are different from eachother, is this normal ?
87 difference when I search for defined items only
all of them ( except prom ID.
are in the tables....

on a side node, I soldered the zif connector to the mempack. and tested all of the solders for good connection.
they are fine now.
I will test tomorrow if it goes any better with it.


all further tips are welcome in between.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

What is the BCC of the original BIN? The one I posted is AZTY.

RBob.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

According to bithoist it is either AUJW or AZRC.

I don't have a copy of either of those bins.

Timmie

And what does that mean ??

Timmie

just loaded the stock 730AZTY into the chip.
same problem.

and how can you see this ?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

On the original EPROM there would have been a sticker with some letters and numbers, this is the BCC (BroadCast Code). It should also be on the lable for the ECM as well.

The BCC is a way of identifying different bins.

Timmie

ok, I got the chip here with me.
it says
Delco ( never guessed that )
AUJW
0976

RBob

iTrader: (1)

AUJW was the BCC for your car when it was sold. AZTY is a replacement that fixes some driveability issues.

To refresh, have you been able to get a decent running ECM with a burned chip? It seems that once it maybe ran OK, but then didn't.

It may be that the ECM is bad. It would explain the issues. Do you have a stock MEMCAL to try?

RBob.

Timmie

yes I have a stock memcall ( if you mean the part where I put the 27C256 chip in)

and my car runs on that stock memcall.

if I put the stock chip back in my memcall, it will also run on that one.
but it looks like it doesnt like any of the chips I burn.
I now installed the USB drivers from moates instead of the windows installed drivers.
tomorrow i can try again. its dark out now, nad the neighbours dont like it if I test my car after 20.00h

let alone 23.30h

MikeT 88IROC350

What is the bin size you are trying to burn on the 27SF512? If you start at address 008000, that would be for a 32k bin. You must erase them chips first. It must be something with your burning method. Verify the chip against the buffer. Maybe you got the wrong bin size for a V6 engine.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The bin size for his application is 32 kb, which both bins he posted in the .zip file are of the same size and look correct in when viewed in Tuner Pro.

I really don't know what would cause this issue, it sounds like he is doing everything correct.

Timmie

ok, checked some of the solderings and it looks like I had bad contacts, so I fixed those first and measered them all out just to be on the safe side. ( this way we are shure we dont have a fysical error )

I tried again with the stock chip in place and everything works as it should.
then I tried it again with my own chip with the stock bin on it. ......Limb Home

then I tried to read the original chip again, but load the buffer inmediatly into the new chip.......limb home again.


this time I uninstalled the drivers. including the USB drivers.
and installed the moates usb driver instead of the windowsXP driver.

havent checked it yet, 2 dark outside, I keep you peeps up to date tomorrow.
if anyone has some bright ideas pls tell me.

MikeT 88IROC350

One other thing that comes to mind. From your last post, i will conclude that the factory PROM will run ok, in your memcal. And even when you try to burn the factory bin onto a new chip, the infamous 27SF512, it will not run the car, only in limp home mode.

So, i would say your burn method is the problem. Now i know you tried everything, but do you have another burner available, to try a flash? Last summer, i was using these chips for my C4, and i was having trouble with the burn. It appeared to burn ok, but did not verify to buffer. I worked with Moates, on troubleshooting, and it was decided that my burner was defective. I had a Burn1 at the time, and they sent me a new Burn2, with exchange, and all was good.
Thus, my advice, try another burner!

hmx

How did you test for connection with your soldering? I'm wondering, because before I soldered the ZIF to my ECM's adapter, I had connection issues like you describe.

Timmie

I can always try chip number 2 ?
will tell you tomorrow how that goes.

I tested connection of the zif with the adapter by putting a small needle ( or a paperclip in 1 of the holes on the uderside of the connector.
now I use a mutlimeter and put it on "diode/beeping"
now I measure on the zif connector connection 1, and the needle in the first pin and see if it peeps.
move on to the next connection, and move the needle 1 hole.
see if it beeps again.....
also best to check the neighbouring connectors to , just to make shure you didnt make any cross connection. ( or a short )

Timmie

OK, I just tried my 2nd 27sf512 chip.
I wiped the chip first ( completely from 0000 to FFFF
then I wrote the stock bin in it.
from space 8000 to FFFF
the car accepted the chip.
went back inside and erased the chip again ( completely 0000 to FFFF).
only thing edited was that I disabled the knock sensor code 43.
I saved the bin and wrote the bin to the chip.
8000 to FFFF

I tried the chp again , and the car went into limb home mode.....



godamnit why cant anything work with me for once
im getting really frustrated with this ****ing thing.
I dont care what it is but im trough with it......

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Try going back to a stock bin.

You may have an XDF that has a parameter incorrect and you're changing something that shouldn't be.

Timmie

ok, something else ( strange IMHO )


I saved the bin of my stock chip in stockbin, and saved it in noknock.
then I compared both against eachother in the binstacker.
as we could guess there where no differences.



then I edited the knock sensor value.
as we could guess, the knock value changed


then we saved the noknockbin. and read it again.


so this extra values why do they change ?

Timmie

well, is there anybody that can give me xdf and adx files that are 100% good. that I can use.

I really dont know anymore what I can do anymore....
I have the feeling that I just burned another 300 euros on my car with this ****.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The addresses at $0006 & $0007 is the checksum value. With changing a parameter in the BIN the checksum will also change. Tuner Pro calculates the new checksum and edits it for you.

When in limp mode is the SES flashing?

At key-on, engine-off the SES should light up briefly, blink off, then turn on solid. A flashing or fast flickering SES means that there is a checksum error.

I just calculated the new checksum from the change and the old checksum, it is correct.

I would also re-read the NoKnock chip and see if it programmed correctly.

RBob.

Timmie

SES stays on solid

its like there is no chip in there.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I figured as much

Read the noknock chip in the burner/reader and save the buffer. The whole buffer as a '512 chip.

Then read that BIN into Tuner Pro. Use the hex tool (CTRL+H) and scroll through it. It will be in hex but that doesn't matter.

The first half should have all FF's, the second half should be data, where the values change and will look cryptic.

If you can source some compatible flash chips locally, try to get a couple and try those.

Also, please zip and post that BIN. I can take a look at it.

RBob.

Timmie

used a new blue ( this time black ) connecotr in the socket.
burned my first chip succesfully. and the knock sensor is disabled.

now its time to play with it some more.
first problem that rised was that my car is still running rich at idle.


reason for this is probably the 264H cam from comp cams that pulls not enough vacuum at idle.
the question is, how do I begin with this,

hmx

Is it idling rich in open loop mode (before the engine warms up) or in closed loop mode (once the engine is warm), or both? There are different places on the chip programming for these. You may want to look through the Tuning Guide Book (in stickies up above) about the idle questions, as idle problems can be complex.

Timmie

well its extremely rich in open loop at startup.
when its in closed loop, its a bit better.


what I do notice is that even in park, that at some temperatures it sometimes drops 100 or even 200 rpm after that it goes back up.

its like the engine sometimes tries something ( like getting the rpm down , but doesnt manage it very well in doing so)
ofcours it can also be that my computer is still learning som e values ( not sure if our computers do some learning themselves )


it could ofcours be that some spark plugs are still fooed from the cold starts and idling.
( does fooling get burned of when you cruise it for a longer time? )

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Running the engine can help clear spark plug fouling. But it is best to replace them once the tune is closer.

You have a couple of things going on with idle. You are going to need to lower the low-speed/idle VE table to get the mix leaned out some.

Then go from it to the IAC steps adjustment, then to an idle learn.

Likely will need to go through these steps several times until the low speed and idle behave. the reason is that the $88 code uses the IAC airflow as part of the idle fueling.

If you aren't sure how to do an idle learn, drop "idle learn" into the search box, my user name as the poster, and the V6 board as the forum to search.

RBob.

Timmie

reminds me, where in the chip comes the "incoming air temperature" in place
I found the table, but now is the question, what is low/ To low.

Timmie

ok,
I got the car running now on and Im playing around with chipping etc.
at first I had a lot of idle issues when the engine heated up.
seems that @
1) I was running on 5 cilinders ( and cold maybe 4 )
2) my base timing was at 6 degrees instead of 10.
fixed that and the car idled a lot better.

yet I still keep the idle at 1000RPM ATM just to make sure it doesnt die on me while decelerating

so went for a drive and first thing I noticed is that my car is running hot.
around 212 degrees... yet it still tried to stall when I decelerated coming down a hill. witht his there sometimes follows this little backfire or atleast a little engine pop in the exhaust.


so I countered this in the table by giving it 2 degrees extra advance in the area betweeen 400 and 1200 and between 80-100HG
the car seems to like this since it didnt pop in the exhaust anymore.
I still here a pop if I decelerate from 50 to 35MPH and then step on the gas again.
( like when a light that is red just changed green again and you give it some throttle again)

now, I do notice hat my engine likes to run hot.
I admit I didnt take it on the highway or anything, but just driving around between 0 , 35 and 50mph. ( this is mostly 100 to 1500rpm ) with long straight parts with giving it almost no gas. the car runs around 210 degrees.



no I wonder if I need to give it more or less timing. I afraid of detonating the block.
but on the other hand, that bump from 6 to 10 degrees really kicked some life into that engine.


in both cases it was running HOT.

Timmie

I now gave te car 2 degrees of timing extra on low RPM high vacuum moments.
80 -100hg and 400 to 1200RPM. the exaust backfires are now almost completely gone and the car doesnt try to stall so much anymore.

anyway, these is my spark plug reading after a 20 mile drive.
question is should I advance it some more at idle.

also, car is still running hot at around 200 degrees. ( it aint disastrous hot but still) for just cruising around 0-45mph,......

Timmie

btw, some of the first bins I wrote.

Timmie

can sombody explain in detail hou the following tables actually work.
I find it actually weird that above 2800 RPM at full throttle the numbers go down.

and how come the table stops at 4000 rpm.

how does the volumetric efficientie adder work ?
is this the table to tune for extra fuel above 4000 rpm ?

Timmie

nboody here that has an answer for me ?

Timmie

really nobody here that has an answer how I have to interprete this tables ?

Timmie

up,...yet again

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The 2D VE table is added to one of the 3D VE tables. It is an adder:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...arget-afr.html

Which 3D table is used is based on RPM and idle mode:

; Idle/Low Speed VE% table
;
; rpm < 1600 AND in idle

-or-

; High speed VE% table
;
; rpm >= 1600 OR not in idle

RBob.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

High vacuum would be the 20-30KPA side of the table, not the 80-100KPA side. 80-100 KPA is were you are under heavy load and wide open throttle.

The backfire while decelerating maybe the fact the ecm is no longer entering deceleration fuel cutoff correctly due to the reduced vacuum of the longer duration camshaft.