jjcuff1

Well I have gotten my idle and fuel going well I can swing the BLM 118-130 by adjusting the MAF and INJ constants and runs and idles well MAF Tables 1-3 work. I had issues with the last of table/fist of next table as an example last is 80 and next table wont accept 80 just 82? then when I save they get adjusted again.

All my test runs are short warmed up closed loop 88 tpi 305 auto stock maybe 5 minute runs

Once I got idle and cruise at under 1600rpm it idels well sounds good blm swing from 122-130 range on short ranges seems ok no knocks. down low maybe 1deg up in the 160+ LV8 above 2volt TPS so on to AE/PE right?

I left the %TPS and RPM for AE/PE alone and just lowered teh decay# in the upper RPM ranges and increased pulse values and BPW% and PE% factors all up

didnt seem to make much different BLM seem to be 131-133 range. Again short runs so probably ok, all my tweak ssound better and not as much pinging. SO I left the fuel and AE/PE tables alone. Since only thing I was seeing as bad was knock retard in the 1-3 degree range around 160lv8-208 and between 2200-3200 above 1.8v

fuel would change the BLM in MAF tables 3-4 much. SO I played with spark. My sprk, I lowered my PE advance down to 1-3 degrees above 3200 and the main table the 176-208 above 2200 RPM was like 24-27 I lowered down to 23

things improved and same logic until 21 range. Still had knock though in same areas but as I lowered down to 19 degrees it has gotten worse. I am wondering does it make sense that I went teh wrong way with my spark? Maybe in the lower AE range I should have went up a little will that cause knock too if too low advance under load?

I leveled 2000-32000 above 160 now into the low 21-19 range across the board. Good thing is that my lower up to MAF3 tables and part throttle the car starts to pull and feels strong. but if I lean into that MAF3-4 table and go above 2volts it now fells flat during AE then bogs then starts to build and my knocks are 8+ degrees at 228lv8 and 3.8volts TPS

got worse. I will go back to pre table where I just had 2 areas of Knock around 2000 at 128 and 187-208 at 2400 maybe tweak up or not as much down?

So whihc are best tables to tweak the AE to control fuel I see BPW in the 14-16 range at these knock times. I do not feel like the AE tables are doing anythign or I am guessing. The temp tables do not play with since I sit at sane temps around 198f. so RPM seem to make more sense?

I have seen the guides on here and read yrj 32/6e table values and I have seen the logic around decay value goes down to add fuel but there are more then those tables. what is teh logic and which ones are key. And in TP how can I monitor when AE is in effect and what the BLM are doing? I think maybe turn off PE and above 2000 rpm I should hope to see BLM drop into 128

AE enrichment vs change in LV8 % factor
so going up increases fuel?

AE decay vs coolant is in % change.
so temps go up the % goes up to decrease or add fuel?

No AE pulses async coolant?
mine are 12 across the board

Async %BPW vs Aync pulse
So first 8 pulses here? Mine arr 1-5 all 3.98% (of what?) and last 6-8 are 2

LV8 AE enrichment coolant factor vs temp
temps start at .6 but between 133-208 go down from .27 to .2 at 306
Is this too low?

The PE enrichment vs TEMP/RPM Mine are all in the 22-32 range. I cranked them up but BLM didn't seem impacted much. I also lowered my PE spark tables down from 6 to 1-2 range

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That sometimes happens when you save it changes values slightly. If a table doesnt accept a value lower, adjust scalar down 1 value and readjust maf table values. If upper end of table doesnt allow higher numbers then adjust scalar up 1 and adjust maf tables

If you are getting into mid 150-160's lv8 and half throttle you want pe mode fuel to come in and do fueling. Ae handles throttle transistions but sustained position for a longer pull is not an AE function. Thats pe.


If you keep pulling timing and the knock is not goin away theres a good chance its false. If it happens on the throttle hit but while holding that throttle position, if knock retard starts to go away then it could be an AE lean condition.

Make sure pe is coming in. When it does BLM does not change. It drops out of calculation so you will not see it do anything. I believe its suppose to go to 128 while in pe mode.

jjcuff1

Thanks for replay
Yes I played with scalers a lot to get fuel. So that makes sense

Also i think I am lean for sure. At idle my idle was knocking and as I tweaked maf n fuel thebids sounds good no knock and 126-130 range seem good. I can not get or see tat with ae

The pe mode seems to lock in at 132 and it seems lean the timing reduction helped but with that much related it has to hurt performance and I feel bog at pe

So I will back up a few revs to less knock in spark table
What are best tables to test AE and how soni drive and look for in tuner pro to see AE results?

Same for PE? I noticed in open loop as well I idle lean and no matter what I change in afr tables I sit at 132 range I am wondering that wot is same issue

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Blm is also not used in open loop mode

My suggestion is to add a wideband o2 sensor and gauge to monitor your changes.

AE you kinda go by feel on throttle stabs but you can watch INT values to see if it moves. A fast acting wideband o2 can also see fast AE fuel pump shots

For pe mode, once you get into it the narrow band voltage should not switch back and forth hi and lo like it does in closed loop cruise mode. The voltage should approach a number like say 700 mv. At wot it should be closer to 900 mv. So you can watch some of that data to see what is going on.

Idle you can check spark plugs and hook up a vacuum gauge. Higher vacuum means motor is filling cylinders well and tune is good. Slight tan color plug is what you want at idle

jjcuff1

Yes I can feel; I went too far with timing and/or AE adder I felt the bog, My RPM build slower before PE

I checked TP and I see that knock for sure comes on after I have transitioned into beyond 2.0 volts and after the ramp build up of RPM, flat line LV8 in 180+ range so I assuem it ois PE thing

As a note. I screwed with my scalers and you are right changing the scaler multiples the whole table up/down. But I cannot change the last value it goes up for example above the value I need say 90 instead of 88 but if I type 88 in it goes to 80 and so do the 3 cells above it and then the second to last cell always remains the highest value.

Well one thing I noticed. Is my Max airflow VS rpm Matches the flatline MAF airflow at high LV* points. For example I am hitting 104 MAF max at lv8 160 (since I changed my maf tables)

But I assume this could be causing the lean condiotn if I am actually reading more at MAF? is it look to crank these up and try to see if upper range fuel BLM improves/

As for the MAF table scaler match up. Do they ranges of the table matter or as long as each table matches start/end? For example if table 1 ends in 21.48 and 2 starts at 21.48 can those value change say to 25.6 and 25.6 in each table? is that ok?

jjcuff1

I amhopeing that Maf max rpm table was my eureka moment it makes sense like i hit a wall at 1800 RPM all the time no matter how lean or rich I changed the fuel curve below that point. COuld be flat-lining the curve (not that I am flowing that much more then stock) but the gain is offset and screwing with fuel range)

Now that car is stock but even the low end pull and idle do not seem stock. I mean even bog and tune issues like i have it sounds cammed to others and starting to pull 1-2 gears that surprised me more then other stock fbody I have had. wonder if someone dropped in a lt1 cam or something

jjcuff1

Good call on the INT. I just checked INT VS TP and RPM and where I am acceleration and TPS is is ramping up is ee step spikes in INT from 124-128 range up to 142 spikes then it hits TPS of 2volts and INT flatlines (PE mode_ and then about half way into the flat line WOT runs around 3.6-4volts the knocks start. They seem to peak just before I let off the gas then go back to 0 after I idle down

I also noticed with light mi throttle prolonged jabs. I was in AE but the spikes were high 135-145 range

it seems to grab on the inital punch ut as I lean into it goes lean so do OI need more pulses, bpw?

now the PE looks simple just spark and rpm and temp tables? Maybe the Max airflow table was holding me back there? And when I lowered the spark, I reduced the VE of the engine and looking at my max airflow table my lower/mid ranges are the ones hitting limits so I was pushing the engine into the RPM limit from say 130g/s into the 104g/s range and hence even leaner more knock.

I will go back to my previous spark table, then play with the max airflow table a bit for the PE mode

I still need help in AE for the % puls factor 1-8 what direction adds fuel? can I add more then 4%? is it better to add across all 8 pulses? what about the other tables for AE? and the decay?


I agree on the WB. I have mine coming but I still like to get it with NB as close for now.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes its always a good idea to increase the limits of those lower values. Make sure maf does as much fueling as possible

What mods are done to this motor?? If a mild 305 you shouldnt be having all these issues if using a good stock 305 based file. I'm curious why it would be so far off

jjcuff1

I never touched that table but I did modify the MAF,Scalers and Inj Constants. SO makes sense could be why I am hitting virtual wall at big throttle stabs and WOT but not during gradual changes and idle.

Why? I wonder too. But I di dreplace the injectors wiht southbay, removed uppers new gaskets, removed egr, ccp,air etc. runs and idles MUCH better fires up and idles at 550-650, cold starts etc just sounds and seems right. My AIR tubes are still not fully removed just bent over so I have some exhaust and lean pops at times but nothign that correlate to the lean fuel.


I redid the complete fuel system pump tank, cleaned rails regulator etc. my new fuel pump seems to whine way too loud and is suspect. I only get 42psi quickly at start up then sits at 36-38psi. At leak down I have removed and tightend up my whole upper and inj gaskets 3x and go tit to hold like up to 36-32PSI for few minutes then leaks down slolwy to 25 range.

I was lean everywhere until i lowered the inj constant into the 17 range now I am at 16.7 and idle and car immediately improved. just feels and sounds right no more hunting surges etc (after plenum rebuild too) I played with MAF before lowering the inj constant and no mater what always 130-138 range once I went into 16.5-16.7 range I could easily go rich into 108 range.

the MAF 1-2 I left scalers alone. I played with them a little but easily could go lean with any bump down and too rich going up. I just tweaked my MAF values about 10-20% up. same for the 3-4 tables. but didn't help as much so I bumped the scalers too. it improved some along with AE/PE stuff but retard got worse as I lowered timing.

I am thinking the MAX MAF RPM table might be my limit problem and reason the big changes on the upper MAF tables do not register. As well as why lowering time made things appear worse (but still sound/feel better). The timing lowered is always safe so sure less/no detonation issue but lowered timing also lowered the pumping efficiency and therefore less airflow called for and car fell into the MAF RPM table limit wall much quicker, since the middle of the table the limits seem obvious and low, and it did knock lean or at least bog.

I think overall the 10-20% recalibration of teh MAF is normal, older car, stock, didnt replace much other then upper gaskets and sensors and I get no errors but wonder if MAF is little off or leaks around it. That with new injectors a little recalibration seems ok. Carbon build up and worn lifters etc has some leaks and tweaking fuel curve to compensate seems ok. Plus the auto mid throttle was not great stock anyway.

I hope with some more tune to the AE back to stock and with a bump to the MAF rpm table I can but my scalers back to stock levels bump fuel 10-20% across the board and lower timning to be safe.

I think the only defict I am compensating for is the lower fuel curve form the fuel pump. At throttle I am seeing 38psi not 42. So that could be my 10% right there.
But it works (I will replace) but still should be able to improve and tune for it with stock setup and just cruising around town.


As for the VAC issue after the upper rebuild and inj contanst dialed in I am sitting at 21-22" of vac at idle I have not monitored during driving yet. but It improved from 17" since I found the car after all my tune up items

Plugs have always looked black to tan as you suggest after I tuned up but I will check again. I suspect I might see some white tips on a few hoels because of lean condition.

New WB is coming so I will install and with $6e xdf it appears to have the WB inputs for tuner pro APU1 built in! So I hope it is plug and play. the $32 I could never get to work,

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You have to check to see if whats being calculated and displayed in your logs are higher than maf limit at those rpms. I really doubt it could be exceeding them but if its not then this wont help you. Still a good idea to bump those values up. On big engines its required because you easily max out the maf

jjcuff1

See below. I am runing rich a little at MAF1-2 engine is eems normal and mild to stock so all makes esne. i think my AE is off and iwht new fuel injectors/constant I am just hitting some simple ECM limits (I switched to $6e from $32 and using iron 89 APYM so I am sure tweaking involved)

You can see the tables below. Top (orange bar to the left down is INT (orange), LV8 (green), RPM lt blue, MAF g/s dk blue, green retard)

I am rich int (blm probably 126-130 range) then n o knock but the 70-100 range MAF is right at my table lmits you can see at tail to right 2475 106.99 is limit for 2500 and 107 in my table ye the lv8 climbed flat to 208 range. I think that airflow maybe bouncing at the limit even though the actual reading is higher?

ALSO!!! I just checked in TWO there are 2 MAF readings one is MAF RAW input? and another and they both are in sync except where I knock! So example in the table above the where MAF reading hits 108 my raw input is 115 and you can see the gap all the way across the PE loading then it goes in sync once off the throttle?




See the gap here. . The middle blue bars the TOP dk blue bar is the RAW input and the MAF reading below is the g/s one used for calcs and fueling? Could be where my gap is coming?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Quick note on BLM values. The only time the BLM is not used to adjust fueling is when it is less then 128 and the ECM is in PE/WOT mode. It is used otherwise but won't be adjusted unless the ECM is in closed loop (short term trim, INT), and learn mode (long term trim, BLM).

RBob.

jjcuff1

Rob

More insite thanks so. I have been tuning here with Blm since I thought nb and int for short runs was too much noise. But I have not looked at logs but ur saying if in closed loop bit not in lest mode enabled the ECM is using int? Not Blm?

That could explain more since Blm and int are opposite for theise short runs 1 leans as other goes rich
Plus see my gap between raw and actual maf? What is that ?

jjcuff1

Rob/Orz
I looked at my spark signal TDC vs Ref pulse and knock as well as MAF. the 2 MAF signals are one is corrected and one is the integer value odd that they are in synce except at WOT were the integer is greater and also see knock? Again I think I am lean as my INT/BLM suggest at WOT as well as throttle tip for longer then quick stabs

I am showing a few graphs. 1: I made a table where I calculated the Spark TDC the real spark value that should match the spark advance table and subtracted the ref spark and added teh klnock in at each cell so

TDC- (REF+Knock) = base the timing in theory. correct? You can see across most cells holds true except at WOT the base timing drops to almost zero sometimes in 2 shjort burts it goes to zero or infinty either way I see a 8-10 degree gap comebined with lean. See teh chart and spreadsheet. you can see on teh chart the AE and tip in thinsg look good then I go to 4volts at 208lv8 and my spark no longers follows it starts to drop out.

Now is the differance from base any adders that i have in the PE rpm or temp sparktables? Iset mine low no like 1-2 degrees from 5-6 wonder if it brings things down too much or is hti sjust the spark ESC catching up?

then the last graph is a typical curve for the 90% of the item when I am cruising and just lightly on throttle things look kosher

so any ideas where the spark drop is coming? Also my base idle is set to 4.98. On the timing light I am between 4-6 and I could not easily get the dizzy to rotate so I left alone for now. could it be too low and this be a problem as well especially with added fuel and air ?







Notice how once in PE that as you say the INT flat line at 128 so that is a good indicator of in PE mode and hence when it appears my lean/knock occur

I think I am almost there do a good tune thanks for the support.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The reason that the SA 'trips out' is that it is going negative relative to the distributor base timing (or DRP, same thing). It is a two's compliment value at this time.

RBob.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Get a wot pull with narrow band voltage on one data line. See what that value is

jjcuff1

That makes sense so the wild noise doesn't mean I am grounding or shorting somewhere in the dizzy or icm or mechanical issue with dizzy at wot?

How do the response curves look during tps ramp up and load they seam normal to me?

Is there a concern or issue that the ref vs tdc spark are off by more then the bar timing at wot? Does this mean something is missing in my tune or I need to add more PE timing or reduce my spark timing table ?

jjcuff1

Rob another simple logic question. Just when I think things make sense I wonder...

As I look a INT and BLm I realize BLm are long term and know and see that over 128 means I am lean and need fuel. My engine seems to feel very lean about 132 range

But the INT as I look at tables above especially with AE and mid throttle tip in or held for several seconds non PE I see spikes that build and peak 140 range INT

Does this mean for INT that the ECM is reading rich and therefore trying to take out fuel and therefore make it lean. Or the opposite ? Reason I am asking in my tune at 142 int that I'm lean and I would add more AE fuel but now I am wondering am I backwards?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is better to have the INT rise a bit on AE then it is for it to drop. A drop in the INT on AE usually causes a lean sag as the AE runs out.

RBob.

jjcuff1

Ok thanks but that mean my logic that a rise, IE greater then 128 is in fact mean the o2 sees rich therefore it is leaning out as I increase tip in (good thing) VS other way like you sad. sagging seeing lean and therefore trying to add fuel and creating lag?

my heavier tip in WOT stabs still look too lean going from 122-126 range then to 142. WOT at 128 then as I fall out of PE it drops into 118 ranges builds up again to 128

is that too much of a swing rich to lean INT

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I think that it is the opposite of what you are thinking.

With the AE a tad on the lean side the INT will increase to add fuel.

With too much AE the INT drops to remove fuel, the issue here is that once the AE runs out the engine now goes lean. This is due to the INT being lower then 128, which is removing fuel.

RBob.

jjcuff1

Ok thanks rob. Yes I was playing devil advocate and I agree with what you say just thinking the opposite out loud to play it back.

I like your thoughts on edging towards lean on tip in vs rich so ae runs out u don't have a lean hole