Dragonsking

I own a 91 Camaro RS 305 TBI and I am having on going problems with what I am almost absolutely positive is the VATS Computer Module itself. I have already done a DIY ignition bypass to the key cylinder and I have that set to near perfection, so i am POSITIVE that it is not the ignition cylinder. I have gotten underneath the car and tried to crank the car with a screwdriver to the starter, with the key in the ignition, in th on position and the starter turns over, the fuel pump turns on, but there is no fire in the engine itself. I have previously brought my car the the Chevy dealership and they "put a resistor" in the VATS to "get it to run". This lasted a whole two months and now I am in this position again. The car will not crank. Chevy wants $1000.00 to replace and reprogram the VATS, I just dont want to pay that much. I have read a number of things related to the "burning" of the chip. I have no idea on what this is, I have an idea that it is the reprogramming of a chip somewhere, maybe the ECM? How can this be done, and does anyone know what is required to do this? I have also read that there is a way to just jump two wires to bypass the VATS, but I dont beleive that this method works for a TBI engine. Can someone please help me to find a solution to this problem? I want to keep the car, but I dont want to spend this kind of money on something that I want to just Bypass or get rid of completely. Thanks

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

http://www.pcmforless.com/index.php?...128&Itemid=341

You take your old chip out and install the new one with VATS deleted

Davidgou

iTrader: (2)

Very basic question here. Does the SECURITY light stay on after a few seconds of tunring on the ignition? This SECURITY light should turn off after a couple of seconds. If it doesn't then your VATS module is NOT reading the correct resistance value off the ignition key or the resistor. Another question, did you say the FP turns on? How? if the VATS is not bypassed or if the security light stays on the ecm won't allow the fuel pump to work either. Please check those items and let me know, if these check ok, then you could have an easier problem to fix I'll let you know.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

VATS has no connection to fuel pump.
read
https://www.thirdgen.org/vats_passkey_system

VATS Disables the starter ( starter enable relay ) and injectors only
VATS input signal to ECM tells the ECM it to pulse the injectors ; not run the fuel pump

DrewsCam

iTrader: (2)

check the resistor they put in the system... its probly blown... replace it and drive down the road... its like 7 cents... make sure its the right resistor by color code though and yes it works to bypass the vats without sending 100 bucks for some delete chip... which i had done to mine and it still didn't bypass the vats,..

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

But the resistor only supplies the correct input from the key to the VATS module so the module activates;
it does not " bypass" VATS.
If your VATS module itself is faulty , the resistor mod does squat

VATS delete on the chip only removes the requirement for ECM to see a signal from the VATS module
before it will pulse the injectors.
You have to manually bypass the starter enable relay that was operated by VATS to have complete VATS delete

Dragonsking

Alright, after reading what everyone has said, here is my reply. I know that according to a few people, the VATS has no control over the fuel pump, so when i turn the key into the start position, you can hear the distinct sound of the fuel pump turning on. Secondly, I am not sure as if the security light stays on or not, I had the dash apart one day, and moved the lights around in the bad of the instrument cluster to try and illuminate some areas better due to a few blown bulbs and in doing so, without thinkin, I removed the security bulb. I know its an easy fix to just replace the bulb, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Anyways, aside from the security light, as I have mentioned before, I do have the ignition bypassed, almost to perfection. I Have forgotten the resistnace of my key, but i made a resister pack that matched it perfectly. Chevy even left it in there when they worked on the car, so it must be good. They even taped it up to look at pretty. Lol.
Ok, now back to the start again. I am trying to get this to work for as cheap as possible, after already putting $2000.00 in new parts in this car in just the last two months, I am broke until I get my ext check from college. I have no idea where tehy would have put this resister in, and I am sure that if I had and idea of where it was, then I could replace it for cheap and get it running again. Now I know that they charged me $297.00 to put this resistor in, at $75.00 and hour that makes for about 4 hours of work. Any ideas as to where they could have put it?
Now for the last question. Removal of the chip and replacement. I have no idea where this said chip is or where to find it. I would love nothing more than to have a chip that has the VATS deleted, because to my knowledge, this would eliminate my problem forever. That is what i want. I have no idea how much this costs, but if someone could give me more insight on this, that would be great.
Thanks a lot guys.

Dragonsking

This is what I am aiming for, I want the VATS gone. This is not the first time I have had this problem, and its just going to continue to annoy the crap outta me until I fix it for good.

I am also planning on putting a new motor in this car, maybe a 350 or if possible, maybe even a 400. Thats not the discussion right now tho, cause right now my problem is this VATS. If i cant solve this, I am gonna have to sell my baby. I love this car and hope with all your help I can find a solution to this.

Dragonsking

I just found this, on this site. Can anyone tell me if this will work?

Keep in mind, as i stated before, THIS IS A TBI engine. Automatic, not manual.


" You can COMPLETELY bypass the VATS module by connecting two wires under the dash:

- the thick yellow coming from the column (start wire from the ignition cylinder)
- the thick tan/white wire coming from the gear selector (provided you have A/T)

That will still leave you with the A/T gear selector safety switch but will totally bypass VATS."


Quoted from a user by the name of (I think) BigBabyLou

Davidgou

iTrader: (2)

I stand corrected then. Sorry about that, I could have sworn that's how it was on mine, but it's been a while.

The simple and cheap solution that I was talking about earlier was the ignition switch itself that is located on the steering column. That was partially broken on my car and it caused a great deal of problems that even an expert technician from the Pontiac dealer could not diagnose with all their computers and junk. The PO gave up on my car because he couldn't fix it and Pontiac tech either, so I bought it for $600 'cause he tought I couln't fix it either and would have to replace the engine. This switch is located on the column and all the cables connect to it. Mine cost $17 and fixed the problem, my whole dash was dismantled when I bought the car and this was all that was wrong with it. lol easy fix, very long and tedious diagnose!

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

No
That only " completely bypasses "the VATS operated starter enable relay.
Is the mod you have to do that I mentioned above if you get a VATS delete chip.

Dragonsking

It says right on the link that you sent me that it doesnt work on a TBI engine. So how can this chip work for me? I DO have a TBI motor. So what can I do to fix this? Since that (connecting those wires) will bypass the starter enable relay, (along with another method that i found) i can go ahead and do that and not have to worry about the starter, but i still will not get any fuel to the injectors because of the VATS. Are there any options left? WILL a chip work for the TBI, considering that it is stated that it work to enable the injectors?

Dragonsking

Let me specify what i have, just to avoid any confusion, in the case that i think that TBI stands for something else. I have a Throttle Body. Isn't this what TBI stands for?

Davidgou

iTrader: (2)

Yes

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

I am not aware of any differences in VATS operation for TBI vs TPI
See
https://www.thirdgen.org/vats_passkey_system

Different direction.

You can get a wire in module that supplies the correct signal the computer is looking for in order to pulse the injectors
( still have to bypass starter relay )

http://myplace.frontier.com/~vze7erz1/id1.html#vatsmod
http://myplace.frontier.com/~vze7erz1/id14.html

http://www.fieroaddiction.com/passkey.html

Dragonsking

does anyone know how to install this type of device? And it will get my injectors working? I can bypass the starter myself and I already have the ignition bypassed, so those are not a problem. I just need to try and get directions on how to install this. Thanks guys.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Read
Where is the VATS pin on my PCM, how do I find it
in the link I posted above
http://myplace.frontier.com/~vze7erz1/id14.html

See circuit diagram for Pass key input location at ECM plug on '91 TBI engine

http://www.austinthirdgen.org/mkport...ine_wiring.gif

Bypass module has 3 wires ;
12V on one , ground on 1
signal to ECM on other which replaces the input signal from the VATS module

Dragonsking

OK, so looking at that diagram, I see two wires labeled as DK Blu, or Dark Blue. Which one would I connect the "load" wire to from the 3 wire module? Is that the "pass key decoder module" that is listed there? Because The otehr dark blue wire says that it goes tot eh fuel injectors.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Confirm with the experts over in computer dept
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-prom/

Just ask if TBI has same VATS system as TPI and uses same input signal

Similar question from there
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...able-chip.html

Dragonsking

So just to reconfirm, It is the Dark Blue wire found in slot B6 of my ECM? just want to make sure thats the right wire. And do you just cut that wire and leave one end un connected, do you splice it and just connect the "load" wire from the module there or what. I would assume the latter, but if you cut it and leave one end just hanging, which one? I am going to buy this wednesday so i just want to get everything straightened out.

And just a last question, Please dont laugh at me, I am an IT guy, not a mechanic.

Where is the ECM??

Thanks guys.

Dragonsking

Is it really just as simple as that BIG silver (metal) box on the passenger side near the Heater core? Its tucked into the dash and has a bunch of wires going into it?

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

The wire from the new bypass module is connected to the ECM by cutting the existing Pass Key signal wire ( dk blue ) and joining to it

Ideally you can now unplug and remove the old VATS module from the car so you have no loose live wires
Marked X in diagram below

Dragonsking

ok, so just to clarify, because I am ordering this part wednesday, I simply cut, or make a "T" connection with the Drk Blue wire, solder it in there and leave the wire connected, just now it has the 3rd wire from this module connected, right? I am sorry for asking so many questions, I just want to be sure that I have all the kinks worked out because I am a person to try and do it right the first time. so here are the steps that I am thinking I should take.

1. Locate the ECM on the passenger side, behind the dash, Next to the Heater Core (since replaced)
2. Locate the Drk Blue wire at slot B6
2. Make a "T" connection with the wire from the module that goes to the fuel enable relay
3. Solder this connection, tape and cover
4. Bypass the starter enable relay via a jumper between the two largest wires located behind the drivers side kick panel
4. Crank the car and drive off into the sunset

Does that seem right?

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

The whole assumption of this thread is based on the idea your VATS module is faulty.
Why would you want to leave it connected?

As I stated above and as is shown in the bypass module wiring diagram ( post # 17 );
CUT the blue wire , solder wire from new bypass module to the wire connected to the ECM and either tape up other end of cut wire that goes to non working VATS module or take the VATS module out completely

Dragonsking

ok, thats what I am going to do. I am not going to go through the trouble of taking apart my whole dash right now, so i am just going to disconnect the non-working VATS at this point and leave it in my car. I am almost 100 percent positive that the VATS is the problem at this point. Thank you for all the help and as soon as I get this ordered and installed, I will post the results on this thread so that any future inquisitions can be answer herein. Thanks again vetteoz for all your help.

Dragonsking

after doing the entire bypass of the vats, my starter has either died, or was killed in testing. So as of right now, the car wouldnt crank at all, i bypassed the starter enable relay by attaching a jumper from one of the heaviest wires to the other heavy wire (wondeirng if i should have just grounded the two smaller wires..Thoughts?) I bypassed the neutral safety switch by attaching the two heaviest wires ( i am fairly sure thats the right way) and i have connect a module that sends a 30hz signal to my ECM to enable the fuel injectors. The led says that its working, as to if it fires up and cranks or not is a didderent story, still waiting on the new starter.

As far as everything that has been done, do the above all seem to be in order and done correctly to bypass this infernal device(VATS)?

**The wire from the module is sending a 30hz signal to the ECM at wire B6, the dark blue wire on, i think, the blue plug. The wire from the VATS is taped and "hanging", the module wire goes straight into the ECM.

camaronewbie

You can test the functionality of the starter by applying 12v+ to the small terminal on the starter (where the purple wire attaches) - use a nice sized wire straight from battery + and the starter will turn 1) if it's good and 2) if battery is charged.

ASE doc

Good responses from Dragonking. One point to remember though is that the bypass module can be configured to porduce either 30Hz or 50Hz signal depending on the model year car its being installed in. You set the output by grounding or not grounding the white wire of the bypass module(IIRC).

Dragonking, be sure test your entire starting system before spending any money. There are several things that could be causing your no start. Start by looking for power at the yellow wire of the VATS relay while turning the key to the start position. You could just have a bad fuse link or ignition switch.

Dragonsking

Yes, I understand about the input signal, I have done my research and as far as everything that I have found, the 91 Camaro RS requires a 30hz signla to be sent to the ecm.

as far as...

What yellow wire are we talking about, on what relay? I am going to assume here that you mean the starter enable relay? I will be sure to test that. The problem I was facing a few days ago, was when I went to just the starter solenoid, the starter would spin, but would not engage the flywheel. I was confused by this, so i brought it to the shop that have it tested. Well in the process of testing it, I am 99 percent sure the idiot connected the wires backwards and friend my starter. Now i have to replace that before anymore testing can be continued with the starter. As far as wiring goes, should I test for any other possible problems. Here is my newest list of possibly solved, still needing confirmation.

1: Neutral safety switch bypassed by connecting the two largest wires. ( Is that correct? from what i have read it is, is there a way to test that, via voltage, not cranking.)
2. I am sure at this point that the ECM has the right signal, but I have no knowledge of how to test this to be sure other than to just try to crank it and see if its working.
3. Starter enable relay, i jumped the two largest wires, i believe one was yellow and the other was a light brown or tan, your choice, but thats the color, lol. Now the testing of 12v. Where should this be done at? At the jumper wire, one of the larger wires, or all around? Logic tells me that if there is 12v going to one wire, then it will travel through the jumper to the other wire. Is tehre anything else I might need to do to fix this.

As a last bit, which lead to my starting confusion and the attempt at jumping the relay.

After doing all this bypassing, I tried to crank the car via the ignition, and the starter did not turn at all, when I went under the car, i jumped the solenoid and the starter spun with a high pitched "whine" but never engaged the flywheel. When I tried it via ignition, the starter never even turned over, let alone engage.. What could cause this?

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Typical GM starter circuit shown.
Should have 12V at all points on circuit when key in start position.
Have you 1st confirmed you have 12V out of the Ign switch starter terminal when in start ?
Ign switch may be faulty
With DVM set on Ohms and the relay and inhibitor switch jumpered ;
you should see zero resistance between Ign switch terminal and starter solenoid terminal.
If not ,you have a break in the wiring somewhere



What terminal on the starter did you connect to?

Dragonsking

i cant seem to find a diagram to explain what two I connected, but there are three terminals, or posts on the solenoid. I will try to make a crappy diagram in this box..

( 1 )
( .. 2)
( 3 )

Ok, thats crappy, i know, but anyways, I could be wrong about the wiring here, I am doing it from memory, I will take a pic of my old starter tomorrow and post more specifics, but for right now, this will do. The bottom post connects to the starter itself, (3), the top is where the 12v lead comes from (1) (along with a few other wires) and the one on the right (2) is a ground, i assume. I connected 3>2 (i am pretty sure) with a screwdirver and it kicks on the starter, but didnt engage the flywheel. I might honestly have connected the wrong two here, and should have connected the top (1) and bottom (3), but its too late for that now, the starter is dead, thanks to the guy killing it, lol.

Now should i test at the enable relay for a 12v power source? This should only be on when the ing. is in the "run" position, correct?


Again, I have to appologise, this is my first real "project car" and I dont have any other outside help or advice, so i am learning as I go here.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

3 -2 should have done nothing ( none of them are live with key off )
1- 3 only makes the starter spin ( puts 12V direct to starter motor bypassing solenoid )
1 -2 operates the solenoid which throws out the gear to engage flywheel and makes starter motor spin

That one ( the small terminal ) is the starter solenoid terminal ; should have had a purple wire on it
as shown in diagram above ;
that is the terminal you put 12V on to test starter.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

This is the exact wiring colors for your car




with key in start position
Should have 12V on the yellow at Ign switch and at relay
and 12V at tan / black at inhibitor switch

If you jumper yellow to tan /blk at relay and tan/blk to purple at inhibitor switch and turn key ; engine should crank

Dragonsking

ok, so i went out to take some pictures, this way I can be sure that I have everything in order for when I get this new starter in.. Here is a picture of the starter solenoind, just so I can be sure of what to contacts I need to jump when trying in manually.

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1295215757

Now what two should I have touched together?

Keep in mind, this IS how it would be mounted under the car..

Dragonsking

OK, now these two pictures are of the starter enable relay.. This first one is just showing the relay to ensure that I have the correct one, which I am 100% sure I do. anyways...

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1295215757

Now this one is just a close up of the wires on that relay,

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1295215757

Which wires do I jumper? The Yellow (Large Gauge) and the Tan/White (Large Gauge) correct?

Dragonsking

This is the ast bit that I need to straighten out, the Neutral Safety Switch.. I have take pictures of it as I have it, and I am pretty sure that I have everything done correctly, I just want to make sure..
This picture is of the plug and all of the wires,

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1295215757

And this one is of the wires that I have jumped, aka the Purple (Large Gauge) and the Tan/White (Large Gauge). That is correct, right?

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1295215757

Thanks again guys..

camaronewbie

On the Starter Enable Relay - the small blk/yel wire is the ground for the relay, it comes from the VATS module (module makes the ground for the relay when the module gets the right resistor input). The small yellow wire is 12v+ just to activate the relay. The relay activates and connects the large yellow wire to the large tan/wht wire, and thus 12v is sent to the NSS.

The NSS - the 12v+ comes in on the large tan/wht wire, and if the NSS is in PARK or N then it sends the 12v+ out on the purple wire to the starter.

That starter has 3 connection points, correct? In your pic, one large at top (no nut), one right side (smaller), one large at bottom (with a nut on it). All the fusible links and the positive battery cable get attached to the larger terminal at the top of your pic, and the purple wire gets attached to the smaller one on the right of your pic - nothing connects to the last one. The starter will spin when 12v+ is supplied to the smaller terminal - this is what happens when you turn the key - 12v+ is applied through the purple wire from the NSS.

Dragonsking

I got all that, I am just trying to make sure that I have everything set up right to be able to crank the engine without any problems from the VATS. I have bypassed the fuel injectors enable signal from the VATS via a module I bought and so now its only the Starter Enable Relay and the NSS.
I am just trying to figure out if I was right and assuming that if I connect the Yellow (Large Gauge) wire to the Tan/White (Large Gauge) wire, that this will effectively bypass this enable relay.
Secondly, Do I have the connection right on the NSS? By connecting the Tan/White (Large Gauge) wire to the Purple (Large Gauge) wire, does this effectively bypass the NSS?

Thanks again.

Dragonsking

Does this mean that I could just ground the black/yellow wire to the frame and bypass this relay as well?

Dragonsking

I really could use ust a bit more advice guys. I am installing the new starter later today or tomorrow, whenever it comes in, and I just want to make sure that I have all this wiring down right. I really need my car, its been a month now trying to solve all this.. Thanks guys..

ASE doc

I recommend you snip the large yellow wire and the large green wire and put them together with a butt connector. This will take the relay out of the circuit so it doesn't cause you trouble.

Dragonsking

what large green wire are you talkin about? i only have a small green wire at the NSS

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Would not bypass relay ; if would make it operate full time when key in start

Dragonsking

so if my car doesnt crank when i put the starter in today, i am going to try and jump the solenoid to see if it runs and stays running, which would tell me that i have successfully bypassed the fuel injectors enable from the VATS, but at that point the problem would be that the start is not turning over when I turn the ignition. what should i do at that point? is my only option to buy a push button?
And thats a geat picture for a visual bypass. But the yellow to tan/white wire is on the starter enable relay, so dont bypass that part?
And what if it doesnt run at all? lol
i think i have it figured out, i dont mean to sound stupid, i just want to make sure that i do this right the first time. thanks again vetteoz.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Correct
so long as you have the IGN on

You have a circuit.
Power goes in one end and out the other.
If it doesn't , do as I said way back and check to power through the circuit until you find the
point where you don't have it
You still have not confirmed that you hot 12V coming out of the IGN switch???????

Just the way it is drawn in pic .Pull plug out of relay ; connect yellow to tan/ white.
DONE
No more relay

ASE doc

I apologize for the confusion. I meant the large tan/wht wire and yellow wires. they're the two large wires at the relay. They carry the current from the ignition switch to the PRNDL(auto) or Clutch safety(manual) switch. As vetteo says, connecting them together bypasses the relay.

ASE doc

Installing a push button is a half effort solution to a fairly simple problem. Properly repairing the start circuit will be much more satisfying. As vetteo says, it's a circuit. Some component in the circuit is not working correctly. You simply need to test to find which component it is.

Dragonsking

ok, so i installed the new starter today and that went in great, no problems. I tried the key again, just to see if it would crank and still nothing. I then left the key in the "run" position and tried to jump the solenoid, which didn't start the car, but i think it would, it tried to run a few times, but i dont want to burn up the starter trying, it might just be that its dry on fuel in the engine from sitting for two weeks.
Anyways, i did as suggested and tested at the relay for 12v. There is nothing, not in run, not when you turn the key, nothing. I have tested both the thick yellow and the tan/white wire for 12v in all three positions, run, cranking, and off, but there is nothing. so what does this mean now? what else should i look at, at this point?

Dragonsking

UPDATE

I decided to test something, and i just took a wire, connected it to the 12v battery lead and touched it to the wires on that relay. The starter turned over, on both wires with the key in the "run" position. Not in the "run" position, only one wire would turn the starter.

The starter doesn't sound right, it sounds like a loud grinding is coming from it and like its having a hard time turning over the motor. This is the same starter as that of the one that i replaced. Ideas?