Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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I was curious of what you guys think is the better engine. the ls-1 being fuel injected and the zz4 being carb. I would think the zz4 would be the better engine due to more horspower and more torque but the it's carb. So could someone sort of help me out of why the ls-1 cost almost double the amount of the zz4.
the zz4 does not make more hp or tq than an Ls1,the numbers you have seen for the zz4 are at the crank and the numbers for the Ls1 are at the rear wheels.....Now take the cam out of the zz4 and put in a tpis zz9,install 2.00/1.56valves in and you are getting close to the output of an Ls1..
TallWhiteGuy : Cool nice to see some one from Texas too. Im from south Tx (Rio Grande Valley), hey you know of a shop here close by that will swap in an LS-1 on a third gen(IROC-Z)? How much would they normally charge? I was going more towards a 350 with fastburns or vortec heads, but an LS-1(4l60E,and diff) engine under my Iroc-Z hood would be much cooler. If they both come out to the same expense $, Id rather go LS-1. Im searching for a good mechanic shop with experience on this subject and close by at least in the state of Tx.
What would you guys pay for someone to drop a LS1 into your car? I had the guy from ThirdGen Resource tell me 6 to 8 grand if all I brough him was the car and the money. Too much or what?
It depends on what is all coming with it. If you get the engine and trans. it sounds about right, But if that is just for the labor and misc. parts than that's a bit much IMHO. But yeah that sounds good for everything.
Bandit: To my knowledge, i can't really think of any. But if you have cash to throw down i would look for a trustworthy shop somewhere close by, so you can check up on your baby if and thing were to go wrong. Just call around and tell them what you want, somebody's bound to do it.
Last edited by TallWhiteGuy; 12-12-2003 at 02:12 PM.
Thats sound about rite if everything is included, I can work with that. The thing is ThirdGen Resource is to farr for me, there has to be a closer place near by hopefuly in Texas or its sorrounding states?
TallWhiteGuy:
You didn't mention anything about the car you would be installing the motor into.
I have a ZZ4 in my 67' Camaro which I had already converted to 88' TPI and a 700R4 trans. For anyone with TPI, the ZZ4 is a shoe-in. If you switch to the LS1, then you will be gutting out the TPI system and installing all the electronics needed to support the LS1.
The reason the LS1 is more money is because it's ALL aluminum. Last I saw, the LS1 could be bought for $5800. I don't know how much of the electronics you get with it though (ECM, wireloom, etc.).
By the way, my 67' gets almost the same gas mileage as my 87' IROC got when it was stock. 22 mpg highway 18 mpg city. 2 years ago I took it to the drags and ran a 13.59 at 101 with street tires and mufflers. Not bad for a bone stock ZZ4 with a lousy three speed auto trans. and 3.36 in the rear end.
a couple of quick advantages to the LS1 in my opinion:
1: aluminum block, aluminum heads, composite (read: plastic) intake; all of these features shed weight--about 150lbs compared to a Gen 1 small block (don't quote me on the weight figure, it's just what I've heard on this board)
2: 6 bolt mains--compaired to Gen 1 which typically has 2 or 4 bolt mains
3: fuel injection--an obvious but important difference, fuel injection means better fuel economy and longer engine life, among other things
4: almost unlimited horsepower potential--there are lots of LS1 guys running 11s with mainly just head and cam swaps and Mike Kleman just ran a 9.65 @ 139.21 in the Pro-Stock class with an NA LS1--pretty impressive numbers
Now if you start talking about the ease of the swap and cost, it is an entirely different matter--with the ZZ4 being both cheaper (in the long run because you won't have to change/upgrade as many parts on your car) and much, much easier to install.
The crate LS1 has complete wiring harness and computer but no accessory brackets ! Best to pick up a used low mile motor with everything and you will get it alot less than 5800 dollars. I like the straight drop in ability of the ZZ4 , the little bugs of doing a conversion have kinda scared me away from the LS1. Mainly due to my budget. Plus I love the way a nice TPI motor looks!
The LS1 is about as close to a straight drop as any other engine with the exception of the wiring harness. Thirdgen resource markets the engine and trans mounts.
A good low mile LS1 will be from $4500 - $5500. Wiring harness ~ $600.00. $1000 for misc parts, etc.
For what it's worth there is a company in St Louis MO that does conversions. I can get you their contact information. I will let you know if I remember anyone in TX.
These prices for the LS1 seem a bit high. I have seen complete LS1's, engine, intake, injection, wiring, PCM, acc., everything PLUS the beautiful t56 behind it for around 4500 bucks. Since the crate is about $5800 ($6800 for the LS6) I would not pay more than 3 grand for a used LS1. The power potential of the LS1 is unsurpassed. However, for the same price you make a LS1 a 500 hp motor, you could have made a Gen I motor closer to 800-900hp and still have some left over for the all too important suspension. My opinion, if you have a good amount of money go LS1 and enjoy the virtues of technology. If not, stick with the Gen I block or even a LT1 and have fun powering it up and beating LS1's (stock of course! )
Originally posted by gen3z the zz4 does not make more hp or tq than an Ls1,the numbers you have seen for the zz4 are at the crank and the numbers for the Ls1 are at the rear wheels.....Now take the cam out of the zz4 and put in a tpis zz9,install 2.00/1.56valves in and you are getting close to the output of an Ls1..
the LS1 is factory at the crank not RW...althuogh the ratings are a little low there still rated at the crank...the zza4 is 355 hp and 405 ft pounds, you think the LS1 makes that much power? or torque? comon...if ud put a zz9 cam in that zz4 motor..youd be all over low to mid 12's eazzzy....probly like 110 or so..
a brand new crate LS1 comes with ecm injector wire harness and evertyhing else thats needed for 5,800 bucks,, but if u have family that works for gm you can get a brand new one for 3,800 bucks..
I have seen factory LS1 camaros with a T56 running mid to low 12 easy, with minor bolt ons. With the right driver and some minor improvments, I have seen LS6's getting into the high 11's. Again, you can make a zz4 more powerful, but a LS1 is gonna beat it stock for stock. Lighter=faster.....kinda why hondas suck. And I am pretty sure the LS1's power is rated at the rear wheels, not the crank...but possibly something to check on.
The LS1 engines were underrated from the factory like the LT4s were. If you look on LS1.com you will see stock engines putting down 310-325 at the rear wheels. Great numbers with the added bonus of great MPG and passing emissions.
Originally, I was going to an LT1 swap, however I wanted current technology for future upgrades. From what I have read the LS2 variable valve timing will be a head and computer swap to the LS1.
Being the engine has been around since 97 I have not noticed any real disparity in terms of aftermarket parts prices.
Just to correct some mis-statements:
ZZ4 is flywheel gross - open long-tube headers, electric water pump, velocity stack instead of air cleaner, facility-supplied electric power.
LS1 is flywheel net - full exhaust, full as-installed air cleaner assy, accesories running and powering the engine.
Also, the "area-under-the-curve" of the LS1 is much, much superior to the ZZ4. That is what is important because that's what accelerates the car between shifts, not peak HP or torque #'s.
Also, the "area-under-the-curve" of the LS1 is much, much superior to the ZZ4. That is what is important because that's what accelerates the car between shifts, not peak HP or torque #'s.
I think this is a mis-statement. Below is a graph of the ZZ4 torque and power curves with the LS1 torque curve drawn across. If you notice I gave the LS1 the benifit of the doubt and made the curve completly flat at its peak value, which it surely isn't, and it is still obvious that the ZZ4 has more 'area-under-the-curve'. Granted as you stated this is like comparing apples and oranges due to the fact that one is rated at gross and one at net, but still I can't imagine the power added to the LS1's values from a free flowing exhaust, a cold air intake, and what-not will make that curve much, much superior to the ZZ4's as you claimed.
Don't get me wrong though, if it were up to me, I'd be going towards the LS1 regardless of 'as delivered' power values simply due to the amount of knowledge and parts availible for these engines that make cars that come with these so much damn faster than ours.
I agree with five7kid. My interpretation of the graph shows the LS1 clearly has a flatter torque cure than the ZZ4. I am assuming the grey area is the ZZ4?
I pulled out my dyno sheet and my LS1 torque curve is flat from 3600 to 5800. I would expect the ZZ4 to produce more torque down low from 1800 to 4500. However my HP curve is flat from 5100 - 6300. All this with a constant A/F ratio.
Unless a carb engine is dyno tuned for jets and secondary springs there will be a dip in hp and tq when the secondaries activate. Maintaining constant A/F ratios will be difficult to say the least. I would like to see numbers from a ZZ4 with a miniram for comparisons sake.
I think the flatter curve is what gives the LS1 more useable HP and tq.
ZZ4 is more or less a corvette L98. an LS1 is far better. its lighter, makes more power, and is way more efficient. downside is parts cost an arm and a leg. an LS1 block weighs around 50 pounds! I can pick one up with one arm very easily. it's all up to you.
My interpretation of the graph shows the LS1 clearly has a flatter torque cure than the ZZ4. I am assuming the grey area is the ZZ4?
The gray area is the HP of the ZZ4 and the curve is the torque of the ZZ4. I put a straight line across the graph that represents the peak torque a LS1 will make, but that is peak all the way across remember and actual curve surely wouldn't be a straight line. I only threw it on as a straight line because I don't know what the actual curve looks like, just the peak value that all the distributers have posted. Can anyone scrape up a similar ranged dyno sheet of a stock LS1 from a reputable source? I would like to see for myself that a LS1 has a better torque curve than a ZZ4, I just don't see it happening with a peak of only 330ftlbs.
I personally am leaning toward the ls-1. Just cause the fact that it is a better engine from what i have read. I was going for the zz4 but it seems like the choice would be the ls-1. It may cost more but it would be better in the long run. So i guess i better start saving.....
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