Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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Pretty sure they're cast steel...should be better than cast iron, at least. I should have been clearer in my post; I'm old school, and sometimes refer to forged cranks as "steel" cranks, even though the newer "cast steel" cranks sort of confuse things.
I an back issue of HPP, they did an article on how to 455 your 400. They liked the stock nodular iron crank, as it had a little flex and wouldn't break as fast as a stiff forged crank could. I'll see abot finding it & scannig it for y'all.
sweet. Am I wrong in thinking you can easily use a stock 455 crank in a 400 block? the main journal sizes are different, and everything I've read or heard (mostly heard) says to sell it and buy a new one, because the bearings won't fit right, and it'll cost too much money to machine. is this true? or is it really worth using the crank i have? also, will the stock crank take 700 HP N/A?
wife cleaned garage so I don't know where the issue is right now, but the 400 block would need to be clearenced for the greater stroke of the 455 crank, the mains would need to be machined down to 3", and custom pistons to account for the longer stroke. this ltes you reuse teh stock rods.
The problem you are gonna have when trying to use a 455 crank turned down to fit in the 400 block is the thrust bearing clearance issue. Custom bearings to fix the problem runs about $150.00. Plus the cost of machine work on the crank. If a 455 crank is used in a 400 block with stock rods , you dont have to get customs pistons, just get the appropiate 455 piston with the right size bore. But you would have to clearance the block for the added crank throw. My opinion would be to buy the Eagle crank & bbc 6.8 rods and Ross pistons to do the conversion. Much more reliable and stronger than using a 20 yr old stock crank that has been modified. Especially if you plan to make some brute power.
Speaking of brute power...anyone else see the new Tiger heads? 400+ cfm!!!!! A little pricey though at over $5000, but at least more parts are becoming available for our engines.
Originally posted by LT1guy Speaking of brute power...anyone else see the new Tiger heads? 400+ cfm!!!!! A little pricey though at over $5000, but at least more parts are becoming available for our engines.
Originally posted by LT1guy They're advertised in the new HPP. There is also an article on the new KRE heads, with drag results comparing with worked 6Xs.
Sweet swap...I wanted to put a poncho engine in my 84 Z...Im considering it as the next engine for my 91RS. With all the parts and build up info that has come out for these engines I think they would make killer street racing engines. Ya cant tell the CID from the outside cuz they all look the same and weight really wouldn't be a problem with aluminum heads. Anyhow, great swap and good info. Its always nice to see alternative engine swaps.
I'm suprised at some many knowledgable Pontiac guys here!
A Torker II would be a good intake and have 1 1/2" better hood clearance than the Performer RPM pictured.
There was a gut running a third gen Firebird in the NMCA street classes running in the 9s with a fairly stock drivetrain.
As was said the thrust bearing width is the problem adding to the swap of a 455 crank turned down into a 3" main block like a 400.
The 6X -4 heads are the more desireable heads and ARE off a 350 or a 78/79 220 hp TA 6.6 motor. They are around 93cc compared to a 98-100cc 6x-8. Put a 455 right at 9.5:1.
No forged or billet cranks unless you get a $2500 custom one but the cast cranks will get you plenty of HP. The big weakness problem besides the cast rods(lots of affordable steel rods now adays) is the block . Big rollers can break out the lifter bores and need bracing. With the new IA block it is braced and you can make a 505 ci Pontiac motor.
Down side is the head flow. Close to what racing SBC flow to feed 455 or more ci!
Edelbrock now has a EFI manifolds based on the shorter Torker II and just out one on the Victor and fuel rails for both,no compleete systems yet. The Torker II uses a special shorter injector that Edelbrock uses on many of their systems.
Alot of cool stuff out for the "traditional" Pontiac motor. And thye look cool in a third gen also.
have you put a hood on it yet?
i test fitted my motor in mu Formula and it looks like I'm going to have clearance problems with the air cleaner and alternater bracket.
there is an clearance problem with the alternator bracket. you could cut a 1/2" from the alternator bracket but i do not like that idea. for some reason the site is not lettin me attach the pic i have with the hood on.
all you need is just the right scoop....... maybe a cowl induction one, just close enough to the windshield to be functional, yet drivable in rain if need be......
yeah .. 3" cowl would work, but 6" would be better. hell if i had the cash i would stick an 871 blower on it and have the butterflies above the roof line... the more motor the better, at least in my book. ya know .. that might be my next add on. what's another 3-4k ... lol
Wow you guys got Skip to reply. So have you had it to a track yet, or just been bombin around the street? I almost have mine street ready, still needs a bunch of tunning and a few more parts. The Eagle crank and rods make for an awesome setup. They are inside the 400 block out in the parkin lot now. JBP did most of my machinework and CNC ported the heads, I would love to drop that thing in something lighter, and 3rd gens can get lighter than 2nd gens can cheaper.
There is no way the Victor/Dominator is going to fit under the hood of any stock body/suspension F body. Mine sits about 3" higher than the fenders and a 4" cowl barely covers it.
Get some times from that thing, and 500hp is soooo easy to get from a 455 its scary.
had it dyno'd at 447 h.p. with very little mod's. it's not street ready .. still need a few more things. but i did have it down the road a bit and there is nothing that car can do to keep the tires planted. lemme rephrase that.. unless i tub it.
anybody know where i can find a bellhousing and a flywheel to bolt a t56 to a poncho? or is this impossible ? i think mcleod makes all the parts, but i'm not sure. just trying to figure out how i'm gonna contain the power. I make just tick my th350 on my poncho and swap in a t56 in my chevy powered bird.
any thoughts? Mcleod's website is down, so i couldn't find anything.
McLeod makes everything...the modular bellhousing, dual disc clutch (had one in my SS...nice!), hydraulic throwout bearing, master/slave cylinders, etc. This is the route I'm taking, after lots of thought. Mine is going to use either Wilwood or Tilton master cylinders though (for brake and clutch), since I'm going with aftermarket pedals (with a dash-adjustable balance bar).
High Performance Pontiac has done articles on the T56 swap before...PM me your address and I'll send you copies (don't have a scanner right now).
Really not much info in here to be considered a sticky.. I was expecting something like pics of brackets, info, measurements, etc. Sources would be nice for parts. I have an 86 TA with a Pontiac 400 about to go in it. have already run into problems, although minor, but none the less, hold ups.
One of the biggest points no one mentioned is that even a pontiac 400 motor with some VERY mild mods will most likely snap rear ends like twigs. My 400 used to be in a 73 catalina and in bone stock 2 bbl, single 2.5" exhaust format, had PLEEEEENTY of torque to roast the tires on a 4800lb car.
Anyways.. if this sticky were redone with all the good information put in it, it'd be great.. just seems too confusing reading thru all the "big block - small block" BS arguments and which is better, chevy, ford, blah blah.. Pontiacs are far easier to work on than ALOT of engines out there. the thing no one can argue though is pontiacs had more torque than any manufacturer in bone stock trim.
but anyways.. I'm trying to take pics of my swap as I go and write down pertinent info to hopefully add to this sticky. otherwise, I'll just write my own article on what I did.
typically, these threads are pared down by a mod when enough usable info is gathered. once one or two cars are done and driving, and complete results are in, the thread will be shaved, and the info presented more concisely.
you're right about the 400. a 400 with some mild work is a force to be reckoned with. some of us just want that extra oomph to be had from the extra cubes. either way, any poncho in a 3rd gen is sweet, and I really want to see some more pics as these cars come together. my poncho is gonna be awhile... I'm moving to Jacksonville in 2 months.
I'll be posting a complete buildup of my own TA as it goes together, with all the part #s and contacts, but considering my lack of free time right now it may be a while...
Ditto on the free time... Although, I have Sunday and also Monday off work, So.. I'llo be getting alot done and will get some before and after pics, etc.. The engine is pretty grimmy from 30+ years in my old catalina. But I've got ALOT of stuff for it over the years... got to put the new cam in I bought 2 years ago and never got around to doing. Tough to work on a car when you have to drive it every day to work.. lol.. Now the TA on the other hand.. I work on it for 2 hours each night when I can and am not having to keep an eye on the kids. Slow but sure.. I'll slap some pics on here soon.. .maybe tonight if I can get the digital to work right. That tooo is getting very old and tired. time to upgrade.. uugh so many things, so little income.. haha!!
question about a 400 or 455 with a 4 speed, im buying the stuff to put a 4 speed in the 85 ta, its from an 82 bird, what i want to know is if evertything will work out , using th 4 speed bellhousing 4 a poncho and then using a poncho 4 speed and stuff. Id really like to have the 400 or 455 and a 4 speed.
Should work out fine. You have two options though...one, use 82-only 4 speed clutch linkage. I have personally never seen it, but I'm pretty sure the 4 speeds still used mechanical linkage. Otherwise, you could go with a Mcleod hydraulic throwout bearing
and use either aftermarket or stock GM hydraulics.
i am going to be putting a 455 in my 84 firebird as soon as the funds become available, and i was wondering if you could let me know what all im gonna need to do to get everything to fit. I want to have a 5 speed in it but ill probably have to settle for the 700r4 ive got on hand (after a rebuild). its gonna be a good while coming, because ive gotta do some suspension/body work first to get everything how i want it, but im hopin to have a beast on my hands once im through. any help with the specific swap requirements would be greatly appreciated
nice job on all your efforts, I am doing a 455 swap but its not a poncho..
I am a Buick guy to the bone, and I have a stout Buck with tranny going in mine, since its just sitting on the engine stand at this point. I have seen this done, and it can look stock as well..
With this combo, you have to use stock manifolds and port them to the heads, but, I will keep it posted, its a slow process..
Hey everyone. New to this forum. Thought I would join this thread. I have a 1989 pontiac firebird that I am putting my 455 into. Trying to do a budget swap. I just put the engine in last night with some 2nd gen. mounts.
Great site everyone.
the thing no one can argue though is pontiacs had more torque than any manufacturer in bone stock trim.
Well Swimster, you are VERY wrong, Buick held the MONSTER torque spot, until Cad came out with their huge hitter.
Buick made little HP but tons of torque. 350 hp and 515 tq. And when caddy came out with theirs, it was like only 517 or something, but it still beats the BUCK. So sorry though ponchos are not the heavy hitters you thought.
