kboehringer

Silver_Panther,

Thanks for the assist. The thumb over the hole deal worked well. I don't know what the heck happend but yesterday early on it was off by two plugs (not a complete 180 out). SNEEZING was exactly what it was doing. Never heard that before but it sure was the correct description.

I think the starter we had was a little cheepo deal that couldn't handle it when we had the timing off so far as that DID make it tons harder to crank. In addition to being a bit too tight to begin with.

She's turing over fast enough now to start if we can just reduce the quantity of fuel she's getting. Now she seems to be "puking" from being force fed too fast.

Thanks,
Kurt

flyitlikustolit

welcome to day 2 of tryin gto start my T/A. congrats gentlemen, it's all downhill now

puking is another good description....... Mine did that until we detuned the carb (it was on a 69 camaro race car originally that ran an 11:1 smalblock). but we got'r did. it'll happen, just keep trying.

Lo-tec

The solenoid will not do much of anything to correct until it goes into closed loop (engine at operating temp).

What I would do would be to stick a small (3/16" diameter roughly) screwdriver down through the choke flap on the primaries to open it a little. As soon as it fires it will open anyways, and since the carb has not been tweaked yet and you really don't need much choke in this weather, it should help. If it catches goose it (right at the carb, not from inside the car) and get the RPM's up. Throw a timing light on it to verify it's in the ballpark, and break that cam in.

Side question, what fuel pump are you running? Just a question because the wrong one will have to much psi and blow fuel past the needle and seat on a Q-jet.

Good luck and via con dios amigos!!

tim

flyitlikustolit

it's VAYA con dios, amigos.

Silver_Panther

Glad I could assist. Have you tried depressing the trottle about 1/4 to half way while trying to start it? (not pumping it, just pushing it down far enough to open the throttle plates some) Opening up the throttle plates in this manner may allow enough air to be taken in to accomidate the extra fuel. Ya gotta take her up in the RPM's as soon as ya start her up anyways to get that cam broke in properly.. Also Lo-tec made a very good point about the fuel pump. Might be a good idea to look into a fuel pressure guage and a regulator possibly.

kboehringer

The fuel pump is a standard mechanical. The original electric (for the cross-fire) had been removed by the previous owner.

Another problem corrected?:
While I had been playing with the fuel all day yesterday I noticed that the fuel didn't smell quite right (although not "skunky") nor did it sting as much when it got on my hands as I thought it should. I think maybe the fuel is bad. The car has been sitting for about six (6) months. It had 1/4 tank when purchased and we topped it off at that time. Some fuel from the previous owner could be in the tank. That fuel would be almost two years old. What I have done (for the moment) is remove the pick-up/supply line from the tank and run it directly to a container of brand new premium.

A problem with this CC-carb set-up is not having a model to follow and the repair manuals don't cover everything as they're obviously not intented for our plan. Our car was stone basic carb & vac. advance dizzy, the wiring was '82 crossfire. We have had to get pieces from multiple vehicles to "Manufacture" what we have. An item I now realize we didn't purchase was the proper evap canister for a carb, I'm gonna buy one later today.

What we may need is an '86/87 CC-Q-Jet model to follow to get all the "plumbing" corrected.

I'm going to post some photos... Maybe someone will see something plugged or capped off that needs to be hooked up to make her start. If she'll just start.... We can take our time getting everything properly intalled and properly tuned.

Sincerely,
Kurt

kboehringer

The letters were added to help with reference.
Kurt

kboehringer

Where would the capped ones normally go?
Kurt

Lo-tec

Bad gas could be your problem. Looks like the wrong canister control valve in the 1st picture (purple lines drawn on hoses). I'm sending an email with a PDF that might help.

sellmanb

LG4 hose routing sticker

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
IT RUNS! IT RUNS! IT RUNS GOOD!!!!!
IT RUNS! IT RUNS! IT RUNS GOOD!!!!!
IT RUNS! IT RUNS! IT RUNS GOOD!!!!!
IT RUNS! IT RUNS! IT RUNS GOOD!!!!!
IT RUNS! IT RUNS! IT RUNS GOOD!!!!!

Firebreed

Congrats guys, long time reader first time poster, You guys did more than what i would have been able to do if i had that car, I have the upmost respect for both of you, i wish my dad would do the things you did with derek, I hope you two have a great time with your z28!

brandon

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
I've been honest with you folks up to now, so I guess I have to continue the trend and fess up to some real stupidity! (I may try to make an excuse or two).

Over the last four days......
I've rebuilt the carb 3+ times....NOT THE PROBLEM.
I've replaced the starter twice (1-J.Yard, 1-New)....NOT THE PROBLEM.
I've primed with the oiler 10+ times....NOT THE PROBLEM.
I've checked and rechecked the lifters 6+ times ....NOT THE PROBLEM.
I've replaced the coil, cap, rotor, ....NOT THE PROBLEM.
I've replaced the fuel........NOT THE PROBLEM.
I've checked for TDC on #1 Compression 100+ times ....NOT THE PROBLEM.
I've checked the wires 20+ times..........OR DID I????

As I was about to throw in the towel for the evening. I was screwing in a couple bolts into the D.Side valve cover to button her up for the night when I noticed the firing order on the Intake.... Hey that doesn't seem right? Could this intake be from a car with a different firing order? Na.... Couldn't be that! What the crap? (I take a quick glance at the Dizzy Cap.....) I've had that dizzy out dozens of times this weekend I KNOW it turns Clockwise!
Why the heck do the numbers go CCW?
It couldn't be that stupid? Could it?

YES IT COULD!!
Damn thing started in 1 revolution and got all my neighbors either calling or looking over from their front porches!

I guess there is a drawback to using J.Yard parts..... Somewhere in the G.M. product line there is a V-8 that has the dizzy turning CCW unfortunately it's not the S.B. 350! I've waisted 4-days chasing every other problem except the right one.
STUPID! STUPID! STUPID!
You guys have asked and asked again I kept checking the top of the dizzy and saying "yep, plugs are all correct!"
STUPID! STUPID! STUPID!

The real bad thing is that Derek left earlier today for a week at Boy Scout Camp. He didn't even get to hear it run! DAMN! Maybe.... I can pick him up at camp on Saturday!!! In the Z-28!!! Got a lot of work to get done for him this week if that's gonna happen!

Wish I knew how to make and post an audio file, the 350 sounds very healthy with just a very mild tone from the camshaft. Leaking V.C. Gaskets and tons of rain made me stop for the evening. I'll run it for a 1/2 hour tomorrow to break-in the cam.

EXCUSE TIME: Although it looks like we could have installed it upside down (see photo), that's not possible as it wouldn't clip on that way. It's just the wrong plug retainer for this car!

Thanks again guys for all your help (we still need a little more). I'll be making use of the hose diagrams tomorrow as I try to get this thing tuned in properly for Derek!

Sincerely,
Kurt

Lo-tec

Good job getting in running! Just think, you will never ever forget the correct firing order and plug wire orientation on a SBC again. I call things like this a "learning experience", and trust me, I've had a few. All works out good in the end, and that is what matters.

I would definetely try and get it driving by next weekend to pick up Derek at camp. Imagine the faces on all the other scouts, who by now have heard about this car, as you leave doing a hairy burnout in his new ride (as any responsible parent would do).

sellmanb

Hah, what's funny is that I was going to give you the picture of the chevy firing order I have on the computer along w/ the hose routing diagram, but didnt want to make another post. Sorry for that, but glad you got it running!




That's the picture I have of a text document of how to properly break the car in. It gives pretty good explanations of how to break the engine in.

You have to be careful with it now though.. not only do you have to break the cam in, but you have to properly seat the piston rings, or it might blow oil after day 1 of running if not properly broken in.


I'm guessing you are running on open headers still if all the neighbors got out to hear it lol. Dont let Derek miss out on that before you guys hook up the cat and catback.

BTW, what catback are you guys going with anyways?

sellmanb

the firing order picture (good to know info )

kboehringer

Brandon,
Thanks for the note. We get PM's & E-mail pretty frequently from folks that are following along and don't post to the thread.

I will say it's a real disappointment that Derek wasn't here for the start-up. I've been the primary troubleshooter for the last several days and he's been handing me tools, books, & soda, when he hasn't been busy preparing the nose and reinforcement for the re-install (Derek repainted all the head light buckets and trims and rebuilt the entire head lamp/reinforcement).

As I left Derek and his brother at camp today he asked me if I thought I'd be able to get it running for him before he got back? He said it in a way that made me feel like he was pretty darn disappointed.... I promised him that it would be running or I'd set it on fire and buy him a new one before he got back.

Wish he had been here! I had disconnected the headers from the exhaust (thinking that maybe I had a back pressure problem). Damn that 350 was loud! Derek would have LOVED IT! Unfortunatley, the DISTRICT COURT JUDGE next door DIDN'T!

Thaks again for the note,
Kurt

kboehringer

Sellmanb,
The catback that was on it when we purchased it (LOL). The tail pipe and muffler look to be brand new. From about a foot behind the cat (which is probably not originial) a brand new 3" pipe goes all the way to the muffler and splits into "fake duals". From the headers to the cat much of the welding and riggin' is mine & Derek's. Derek and I fabricated and welded a piece of junk from OTC parts to get us over to Midas so we can have a real Y-pipe fabricated. I'll also get them to repair the section up to the new looking stuff. I'll take and post a photo tomorrow of my "Shade-Tree" welding and fabrication of a "Y-Pipe" (for all to shake their heads at).
Sincerely,
Kurt

flyitlikustolit

the beast lives told you it'd be worth it. if you need help..... I'm off work tuesday and wednesday. call me if you need a hand (404) 219-6761. I'm an Eagle Scout, so i know how important camp is. my own bros. just got back from a week at Rainey Mountain. but i'm serious... it'd be awesome to get the car ready in time for a jaunt up to the mountains to pick him up... or just to the local meeting point to pick the boys up. IN THE Z. I'm not doing anything Tues and Weds, so call me if you have time and need a set of hands. Have tools, beer, and time. will work for food.

sellmanb

you guys didnt get a y-pipe w/ your headers?

I've seen the local MIDAS "at work" and every time, the work seems rushed and sloppy. Wish i took pictures of what they did to my stock exhaust before I chucked it (got a catalytic converter from them when i bought the car).

they not only welded the new cat to the y pipe, as well as the i pipe, but they welded part of a hanger so that their "universal fit cat" would fit properly without drooping down.

Pretty shade tree, but I hope that the guys at your local Midas are more experienced than the ones at mine

Keep on posting with any more problems (probably just going to be the typical irradic idles, or bogs on acceleration stuff now, nothing major) and the TGO crew will try to help as we might!

Again, great job finding that out, good idea looking at the intake manifold for your firing order as a last resort

nick05

Good to here that you guys got it running I am 15 myself and I am building a 350 that I got for $80. I wish my dad spent as much time with me that you spend with your son....he claims he is always busy working on cars...I told him he needs to take a brake and help me I have been reading this thread from the begining. Got any ideas that I could say to my dad that would persaue him into helping me more since you have a son the same age as me and you are a dad yourself? see-ya and good look with the car

kboehringer

Nick,
Wow...you've got a couple tough ones in there. It's kinda tough to get anyone to do something they don't have enough time for. Maybe you could offer to help your dad with some of HIS chores first. I am sure he has obligations at home that you could help with (i.e. Lawn Care, Car Washing, House Painting, etc.) that should clear up a little time he could use with you and your '87 Camaro. But first off I think I would try to TELL HIM that you would really like to SPEND TIME WITH HIM and you think the car could be a good way to do that. If he thinks that you just want HIM to fix YOUR car then he might find it hard to find the time.

Please also keep in mind that those of us that are a little older could be a bit intimidated by all the stuff under the hood of one of these Z-28's. Sure.... we had some of this stuff on our rides as kids. My first car was a '78 AMC Hornet Hatch Back (V-8, 304??) had an EGR, Canister (I think), and some other pollution stuff but it was nothing like this Z-28 and there was no computer. Some dads might not want to look stupid if they don't know everything

I got started on this project with Derek because he WAS a "couch potato" and I wanted him off the couch!. He was/is very interested in cars. He couldn't get enough of Monster Garage, The Tuttles (motor cycle guys), and some of those other motor head shows. I TRY very hard to do "something" with each of my kids (all 4). But they each help us out with chores around the house. That makes it easier to get to Baseball Games, Concerts, Scout Camp, Webelos, and all the other stuff they are involved in. I try to do "1" thing with each of the kids (i.e #1 Kurt, Jr.=Baseball, #2 Derek=Z-28, #3 Sarah=Orchestra, #4 Karl=Baseball). I can't do everything for all of them....maybe your Dad has the same dilemma?

TALK to the guy.....dont wait till your 40 to say..."Sure was pissed you didn't help me 25 years ago with my Camaro"

Sincerely,
Kurt

kboehringer

Sellmanb,
We got the headers on E-Bay from a guy that sells tons of different headers. They were advertised as "new" but I suspect they were probably customer returns (although they had not been on a running engine but somebody tried to mount them). If you know who I'm talking about, don't buy anything from him! He had no y-pipe and Summit wanted over $100 for it. I made due for about $10 & 10 feet of mig wire.

I may not actually use "Midas" but I will use a muffler shop that can bend it's own pipe. Be assured a crappy job gets no cash from me! It's rare that I let anyone at a "shop" touch any of my vehicles except when I cannot possibly do it myself (i.e. bend tubes). An instant oil change cost ME $19.95 plus a 1.8 litre Honda Engine about 4 years ago...... NEVER AGAIN!

Sincerely,
Kurt

speedingpenguin

iTrader: (1)

Definatly get a sound clip or video (even better!)
if ya need to host it, www.putfile.com for free :-)
District judge didnt like the open headers, huh?
Well, neither did the local police officers over here. LOL
Last night I got myself a nice little 50 dollar ticket for my temporary exhaust system (just a set of glasspacks bolted to the long-tubes)
Oh well.....some people dont have the same appreciation of 100% pure American *Rumble* made *Rumble* music *Rumble* as thirdgenners do, huh

My advice for you though is to take it easy for a while until your sure that nothings gonna turn out to not work or whatever......in other words, dont wait till the morning your gona pick him up from camp to start driving the car really, cause if your luck is anything like mine, thats the time that your alternator will decide to call it quits or you'll throw a belt or start leaking antifreeze from the radiator or something stupid like that......
I'd get as much driving in BEFORE ya NEED to drive the car as possible, as that will be the quickest way to work most of the bugs out of it and you wont be stranded on the way to pick him up or whatever.....Believe me, my parents have gotten MORE than a fair share of calls from me saying "Umm.....yeah....I'm 10 minutes down the road and the cars overheating, can you bring me this and that?" or "Hey, uhhh....the car stalled and I cant get it started and the batterys dead, can you bring the jumpercables?" LOL
GOOD LUCK AND HAVE FUN!!!!!!! CANT WAIT FOR MORE PICS AND VIDS!!!!!

BTW, see about maybe getting a cut-out before taking it in for exhaust, that way when ya get back from picking him up you can un-cork it and let him hear it :-) (or ya could risk getting bitched at by park rangers or whatever and get to the camp early enough to slide under the car with a glove and unbolt the cutout plate before he see's the car, then you can really surprise him when ya start it up and all his friends and their parents jump 10 feet in the air, LOL)

911rsq

Kurt, I was reading thru here from a long weekend away from the 'puter and came to your first post about pulling the engine and my heart sank. I know that's not a fun feeling knowing that all of your work may have been for nothing. Much to my pleasure, I kept reading and see that It's ALIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That rocks man!!!!!
Have you told Derek yet?
It may be a cool surprise for him to get home and have no idea that she runs. Set him up good too.... You can tell him that you need to check the compression again or anything that would involve him cranking it over and VVVVVRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOMMMMM !!!!!!!!

nick05

I do all of the yard work b/c I enjoy working out side and doing stuff constructive and I like to do construction type stuff too like paint...help build deck...layed tile floor etc.....I help him in the barn work on cars. But thanks for the help

Crazy Firebird Kid

Wooohhooo you guys freaking rock. I've been following this thread for about a month and a half now, and its so cool to hear you finally got it running. Keep up the good work and do a couple burn outs for me.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

If you guys are looking for a good muffler shop, Gary at Sharpsburg Muffler can hook you up. He did some great work on Redraif's recently.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Congratulations! You beat me getting yours running.

I've never seen a HEI retainer like that. Perhaps for a marine engine, or some other reverse-rotation application?

I spent the weekend fixing two toilets (with son's help), doing his horse things, going to a Rockies baseball game (they won, first 1-0 game in Coors Field history), and working again on the wife's Bonneville low oil pressure problem. The only Camaro work I got done was removing a piece of splice pipe in the cat-back (a lot of banging) and replacing the u-joints (167k originals). Still have to rebuild the carb, but any time now it's engine/tranny mate and install.

Of course, getting in the way of any work this weekend is the Mile High Nationals...

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
I arrived home from work early enough to correct a few minor problems and get the Z-28's 30 minute ring burn-in done. The Z needed a jump from the battery charger as something is drawing down the juice but she started immediately when the charger was hooked up. It's a little scary running a new engine at 2K for 30 minutes.... I was waiting for stuff to come flying out of the engine compartment! Good news no leaks and no apparent over-heating. I tried to help her out a little with the biggest fan we had but I'm not sure how much it did other than make me feel safer..... More to come in next post......

speedingpenguin

iTrader: (1)

:-)
Believe me, even after DRIVING the car about 20 miles or so, i'm STILL waiting for the *BOOM*/fluids all over the road, LOL
Do ya have any way of getting a video of the beast running? I can't wait to see/hear it!

Lo-tec

Cadillac 4100 series engines use it (4.1/4.5/4.9). Same large HEI cap, same firing order, just CCW.

kboehringer

TGO Friends - CONTINUED,
The run in was kinda painless although I couldn't wait for it to be over! The Zero-Lash adjustment on the rockers is definately a little off as there is a bit of rattling going on. Comp Cams wanted 1/2 turn past zero-lash and the Haynes Manual wanted 3/4 turn. I went with CompCams, and will obviously need to tighten 'em up a little tomorrow now that they have run quite a bit and are certainly oiled well.

I've verified that the electronic stuff on the carb is getting some voltage but i'll need to study the Haynes again and again and again to figure out how the dwell readings work and if they are correct for Lean conditions and verify "closed loop vs open loop" operation.

The '86 engine wiring harness is no match under the dash as almost nothing works. I had to use my dwell/tach to determine RPM as the in-dash tach is inoperative. Last weekend we grabbed the fire-wall to fusebox segment of the under-dash wiring from the same '86 to make that switch if needed. It's needed! We'll have to re-map and plug our under the dash items to the correct locations on the '86 fuse box.

flyitlikustolit:
Thanks for the offer but if I rush this thing now... we'll end up doing something twice or worse yet "half-***". Derek should be involved in most of this anyhow. I will attempt to get her in a condition that he can turn the key when he gets home and hear her scream! We would like get together sometime real soon! I'll send a PM.

Time to cover up the car (should be cool now), put up the tools, and watch a little tube!

Thanks again,
Kurt

kboehringer

Sellmanb,
Here's the photo (as promised) it's the most awful Y-Pipe you've ever seen. It is just temporary. Keeps us from getting a $50 ticket like speedingpenguin did. This was not one of my better welding jobs and I was also trying to avoid "Splatter Welding" the Chrome Oil Pan.
Sincerely,
Kurt

flyitlikustolit

totally understand. Offer still stands if you ever need the extra body, but i know how much the car means to derek, as i'm the same way. I'm thrilled you got it running and that the cam is broken in. keep it up, man. it's not so far from driving now

kboehringer

Speedingpenguin,
We only have dial up service and my little kodak's movies are huge, without sound, and pretty lousy..... I will try to get a .wav file made if possible.
Kurt

speedingpenguin

iTrader: (1)

Ah, okay Having had to use dialup for a short period of time recently (cable modem died, maybe its used too much, LOL), I definatly know that uploading a huge vid is out of the question, LOL
Still would love to hear it :-)

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

V-8 oldsmobiles also use the HEI wire retainer, im not sure of the firing order, but the olds motor dists turn counter clock wise.

nice to hear you got it up & running

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
I was trying to make some minor adjustments to the rockers on the Z-28 and had some difficulty with oil splashing on the headers.
One of my employees suggested this idea and since I had saved the extra covers we modified them. Should help keep the oil in and some of the wires out of the rocker area while I adjust them.
Kurt

flyitlikustolit

yeassir that's the best way. they make special deflectors for this purpose, but i'm not sure why you need to buy them when you can make your own

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
Made the necessary adjustments to the rockers today with my "Special" Valve Covers. Worked pretty well and now she sounds much much better! I know the carb is off adjustment by a mile but it starts (and idles) with one tiny flick of the key. Got the Z-28 down off the stands & blocks to see if the tranny was going to be good to go and all seems ok. We have a few items left to button up on the underside including the torque splash guard etc. but Derek and I can get her back up as needed. The Carb will need some SERIOUS ATTENTION to get her rolling properly. I'm going to start looking over and search the carb board to find a starting point for the Mixture adjustment screws etc.

The Z-28 has been up on stands for so long I hadn't realized how low it sits to the ground. Damn that thing is low!

I'm posting a photo with a couple questions indicated. If anyone can help clear up these few items we should be able to get most everything (hoses) put in CORRECTLY. The cruise system is still a bit of a mystery, the 82-83 is really wierd with hoses everywhere! We'll have to find a good sample in a J.Yard to figure that out. This weekend may become a honey do list weekend with Nancy demanding some in-house activity. We'll slip in some Z-28 time for sure!

Please let me know if you can identify the proper locations (or function) of the stuff indicated.

Thanks again,
Kurt

Firebreed

I can snap a few pictures of my cruise system in my bay if you want, i need to get some batteries first though, I dont know how different the Berlinetta cruise is from the Z28. not to mention i dont know if the 2.8l v6 cruise is different from the v8's or not.


Brandon

kboehringer

Firebreed,
If your's looks like this it's probably the same. I took this photo at a J.Yard but most of the stuff was already gone. I was able to use it for the two lines that are still connected to it. ALL of our lines are missing or dryrotted off in this area. Lo-Tec provided some drawings that will allow us connect the canister to the engine properly but there are some "take-off's" for the cruise I still can't figure out. A photo would be great if yours is the same.
Thanks,
Kurt

Firebreed

Just took a look at my Cruise, It looks the same as that pic you posted, ill snap a pic of mine from a few angles tomarow (right now its too dark to take any photos)


Brandon

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The '86 cruise system is a whole lot simplier. It uses ECM signals, the govenor is built into the servo, and the speedometer cable goes directly from the transmission to the speedo. There are still a supply and switch vacuum line, but it's a lot cleaner.

Of course, the wires up to the turn signal lever are different, but, I still prefer it to the old mechanical govenor.

Firebreed

However, the picture that Kurt posted looks strangly alike mine in my 83 berlinetta. Hmm Ill still post up what my cruse looks like tomarow, im sure theres a little bits of differences but i dont know how much

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

His '82 and your '83 should look the same.

Silver_Panther

If "??vacuum source??" is refering to the bottom connection on the black cylinder on the firewall.. There should be one small stiff hose that runs from that cylinder into the passenger side firewall. Then there should also be a hose from it to the manifold vacuum source between the distributor and the carb. This little box allows you to switch between vents, floor, defroster, etc.. for the AC/Heater.

Also here is a pic of the Cruise Control on my 82 Z28.. Unfortunately its not still hooked up so a hose or 2 may be missing.

BruceEmbry

The 82 cc system works great, but the modulator tends to go bad.

The 86 system is also fully electroic. There is a seperate control module somewhere in the dash. I have been thinking of converting my 82 over to the newer sytem. But I need a complete 86 cruise control harness. All I need is the harness, because I will buy the rest of the parts new from RockAuto.

So if anyone can help me with the harness, please PM me.

Firebreed

Is there anyway to get a new modulator? because im fearing that either my Switch went bad or my modulator went bad anyways, ill let this topic go back to what it was ment for.. Kurt to ask questions and recive answers