kboehringer

We can't have that! No way we want anyone confusing this AMERICAN MUSCLE [not quite yet ] for an import. Derek had to install the nose! The First Third Gens have a "unique" look.
Kurt

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kboehringer

"Whatever the "Thing" is, I will post a photo of it tonight."
This thing..............

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911rsq

Looks like either a vacuum switch or vacuum sensor

BruceEmbry

I believe that it is a vacum switch that goes to the canistor. Later model of Thirdgen's had these integrated into the canister.

DAVECS1

I have seen valves like that for actuation of the EGR Valve.

I hope I have not upset anybody with my post about the CC stuff. I am just wanting to see you guys get good results you have more than earned it. I don't think I have ever been this wrapped up in an internet post. I am at a point were I would put some parts down to see that thing run like it should. We can never have too many car guys in the world. Some of the best guys and gals I know are into cars!

Shroom

I stumbled across this thread lastnight and was up till 3am reading it. Then i finished it off just now, and all I can say is... Wow!!

It's kind of a coincidence, too... My name is Derek too (kinda funny to read this entire thread) and for my 17th birthday (turn 18 tomorrow, woo!), just after I'd finished 11th grade, my parents bought me an '88 Firebird Formula 350. The only difference is that neither of my parents are into cars, so any and all work has been done by me with the aid of a friend of my dad's and a friend of mine.

I'm happy for the both of you, and I can't wait to see the finished project!! Take care of her, Derek, and she'll take her of you!

--Derek

Lo-tec

Didn't have one on my car, and whatever it does I don't think you need it. If it's for the canister, the setup is different for a CC carbed car. If for the EGR, the ones I have seen are smaller with much smaller vacuum lines. BTW, did the pics help?

kboehringer

DaveCS1,
ABSOLUTELY NOT. . You have certainly NOT upset us in anyway! Please don't think that. Different opinions are good. We are however, not YET willing to give up on the CCC Q-Jet.

TGO Friends,
WE wanted to post a couple picks and give you folks an update.

We got up pretty early and tried to get the Z-28 ready for the Open House at the plant. Derek and I really wanted to take her but.... I had a moment of MATURITY and decided it was too soon for such a trip. We were running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to get the Carb right. We even had to drive 20 miles to get a NAPA #2776 adjustment tool. In the end, it seemed like a better choice to wait. Rather than be towed home in disgrace.

When we returned, we decided it was time to re-group forget the carb for a little while and check all of our other work, replace a couple bulbs, and do some less demanding projects before we jumped back into the Carb/Emission problems. We've been driving all over the neighborhood and it seemed like we should check all our underside work before we got the engine and exhaust hot. Lucky we did, as the sway links had not been tightened properly and the Power Steering loop was loose.

We decided to try and install a trunk deck lid cover we grabbed off a J.Yard Berlinetta a couple weeks ago so we could hide some necessary tools. Unfortunately, we found another nightmare problem. The stupid previous owner made another mess because he was obviously too lazy to pull the tank (see photo below).

I (Kurt) spent many hours last night reading Carb Board posts doing more & more searches and getting some REALLY good information from some very experienced TGO people.
What's done?
Float height is Perfect.
Lean / Rich relationship is a Perfect 1/8"
TPS Voltage .049VDC (Almost Perfect .048VDC)
Vacuum gauge shows no air leaks.
'86 Camaro Chip is Installed - No noticeable difference
What remains?
The MCS Dwell WILL NOT DROP to 30 Degrees! -
In accordance with TGO Carb Board instructions, we've started tinkering with the mixture screws and the Air Bleed Valve to try to get it down.
Air Valve Tension - We'll need to adjust this after the dwell adjustment problem is resolved to get rid of the Flat Spot when we try for WOT (Wide Open Throttle).
Re-Install all the Emissions Lines -

We think we're making progress...we're certainly learning . I actually feel very comfortable turning some projects over to Derek and sitting back for a moment to watch or take his photo. He has grown in knowledge and ability since this project started.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

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kboehringer

We're trying to keep the photos small....

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kboehringer

Do drugs really influence one's common sense this much?
Do people have to be taught to be this stupid?
Can anyone be born this dumb?

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kboehringer

Absolutely... THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TIM! - We're goin' Junkin' Tomorrow to try to find a Baro. Now that we know how to tell the diffference by the tits inside the connector. Our connector's sleeves were loose and we could have plugged it into either variety and wouldn't have know the difference.
Thank you very much
Kurt & Derek.

kboehringer

Shroom / Derek:

As I read your post I found a couple things that were interesting. First, it was interesting that we had the same name and that we spell it the same way. Second, we both have third gens with 350 engines. A third thing that I found interesting was the fact that you got your firebird as you were going out of 11th grade and I am going to be getting my Camaro as I enter my 11th grade year. Well, my dad says that I will still be getting it as long as I keep my grades up that is. Hope you have a Happy Birthday tomorrow.

Derek Boehringer

kboehringer

Attached is a descriptive photo and diagram of how we currently have the hoses routed. I believe we need a different "Purge Valve" than those we have (marked purple). The diagram shows only two lines on the "PURGE TVS" all our valves have three lines. For today, we have just skipped the purge and ran a hose. We're on our way to go Junkin' and look for a purge with only two connections (in/out). I really thought the diagram was wrong as I figure the purge needed vacuum to open and close?
Kurt

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kboehringer

Photo for above post.

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speedingpenguin

cutting the "access" hole above the gas tank is actually fairly common.....and it looks like whoever cut that one did a good job, too!
its a lot easier to replace the fuel pump, sending unit, etc. with the access hole there instead of having to drop the rear end, drop the gas tank, etc.
My friends IROC the person had i guess made a few cuts and pried it open, didnt do a good job. Go steal a stop sign (Just kidding....buy some sheet metal) and cut out a panel a little bit bigger than the hole and find some way of attaching it to cover it up.......probably your best bet
oh, and do something about the nose!!!!!!!!!!! even if you just spray primer over the red paint, the red on the gold looks lol

speedingpenguin

oh, and if things dont work out with the quad. carb, i now have an edelbrock 600cfm carb that i can sell to ya for pretty cheap. Replaced it with a holley 650 double pumper, it'll go on eBay unless you want it. Cant GIVE it to ya (17 + no money + 2 tickets = broke. LOL), but i'll certainly beat whatever you could get one somewhere else. it has electric choke and mechanical secondaries and worked perfectly fine up until....3 days ago? maybe 4? when i took it off, so it should bolt right on and fire right up lemme know if your interested

sellmanb

Kurt and Derek, I have to apologize.

I looked at the emissions picture I gave you again today, and noticed that it had the dual snorkel intake setup on it. I suddenly realized that it was the L69, 305 H.O. sticker, not the LG4 one!

So I went outside, since my camera doesnt take very good pictures of the sticker I just sorta re-drew the picture for you.

Here's the correct "LG4" setup.

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kboehringer

speedingpenguin,
The photo of the tank does not clearly define the mess it's actually very bad. I know someone will likely disagree, but IMPO this "short-cut" is extremely hazardous. The occupants of the car are at a significantly higher risk of fire, and of being overcome by fumes if there was any problem with the fuel tank or the lines.

Derek and I have decided to cut a major section out of a J.Yard Camaro (which should fit nicely over the same area). We'll drop the tank, seal and weld the perimeter of the entire piece. If we need to get to anything in or on the tank we'll drop it. That's going to be a pretty rare since we don't have an in-tank pump.

Thanks for the offer to be first bidder on the carb but we're getting closer to having a good Q-Jet. I'm sure it's just a tweek or two away from being good-to-go. It now runs better with all the emissions stuff on, even though it may still be a little wrong.

Sincerely,
Kurt

kboehringer

Sellmanb & TGO Friends,
Thanks for going to so much trouble for us. There is a new problem now (sort-of) our CCC Q-Jet does NOT have a "K" port. There is an area where a "K" port could be, and it is marked "K", but there is no port there?

Honestly, we know what we have is not correct, but it must be pretty close. We just returned from Auto-Zone which was the Z-28's first real trip (about 20 miles round trip) and the car ran very well especially at highway speed. There is still a flat spot/bog if you punch it to WOT at low speed but at highway speed she will get up and go PERFECTLY when punched. I don't know how fast were going (speed still wrong and 85 max) but she can move VERY VERY WELL! Derek was supposed to drive back but he forgot his wallet and I know this Z-28 is a RADAR TARGET! I didn't mind doing all the driving!!!!!
We're probably better off following the first diagram?
What do you think of the way we ran the plumbing?
Maybe we can find a middle ground that will accomplish the performance and emissions goals?

Sorry TGO Guys, we've really posted a lot of stuff the last day or so.... Hope you don't mind....we're getting close to a real Z-28!

We're gonna change the front brake pads and take another LONGER ride! GOTTA GO! GOTTA GO!

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

STRIFE69

Been folowing your thread for some time. The part that I enjoyed most is the bonding factor you are getting with your son.

Going to the J-yard and cutting a piece to cover your hole over the gas tank is a good choice. Most people use screws to put the cover plate back on and some sealer between the two pieces of metal to stop and fumes and such from leaking in the car and be just fine. Just make sure you buy screws short enough as not to hit the tank. Self tappers work or regular one with a hole drilled. You can get an idea on how long by looking in the hole that you are covering up.

Welding is a good thing to do also. If you stick with the welding and drop the tank it might be a good time to check the internals of the tank. From the pic I noticed that couple of the lines had rubber hose on them. Not sure if that is factory for an 82 or from the job of the last guy to work on the gastank. Maybe replace that portion also to solid lines.(just a thought) Though they probably safe as is since no fuel is being PUSHED to build up pressure.

No electric fuel pump in tank but I think there is some type of filter that you could change.Plus would be good to see what someone prior did in there. Not 100% on what is in your tank, But good chances there are. I'm sure someone here can tell you. Better to do it while you have tank out. Dropping the tank is not a fun job to have to do more then once HEHE.

Be sure to paint anywhere you have any exposed metals. A good can paint will work for your purpose cause its not in a visible place. Being covered up by carpet and tank.

Once again thanks for the interesting read.

kboehringer

DaveCS1 & TGO Friends,
Today was Derek's FIRST REAL Z-28 Driving Lesson (He still has only a permit).
I have NO hair left!

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Sidewayz28

haha you got it better than my parents...i got my camaro, 5 speed and i learned how to drive on it...haha close to 300hp to the rear, it was very hard but every hour i kept improving! ive been following this thread for a while. congrats to both of you and derek u have a pimp ride, and ur lucky u got to build ur engine. i wish i could have built mine, or seen how it was done!!!!!! good luck in the future guys and nice work

__________________

2001 Camaro SS, Hurst M6,H/C/I
old #s: 395rwhp/366ftlbs

DAVECS1

The Vacuume diagram you have drawn above should work just fine.

If you are just shooting for function and not a gold star stock reproduction. (whats the point nothing ever comes right from the factory:-)

You probably know the following but here is the summary of what the emmissions equipment on your car does.

1. The EGR valve: This valve should open under light cruise conditions and inject exhaust gas back into the intake. The goal is to substitue volume that would otherwise be using fuel with exhaust, and save gas. Also since you are reburning the exhaust there should be less emissions.

2. The VAC sensor or MAP, is monitoring engine load and adjusting timing and fuel mixture at part throttle.

3.The air management valve and those temp valves are for injecting air into the CAT to bring it up to operating temp faster. If you use some of the newer cats from CATCO, Magnaflow, and other well known brands, they really do not need this feature. The design and materials have higher flow and efficiency.

4. The stove vent on the air cleaner, is supposedly used to heat up the intake charge when temperatures are not "correct" for complete burn of the fuel. My opinion ditch this option. The problem is the components never do a good job of determining the "correct temprature" and actually a warm intake charge does nothing for a more complete burn. We all should know that air with more density (read cold) burns better.

5. The canister is just to ensure you are not venting tank fuel vapors into the air. I would check your setup to ensure you are not pulling a vacuume on the tank. From looking at your diagram it looks as if you may have some problems there. I would block the vacuume lines to the canister and see if perfromance changes. If it does not, than I am all wet and you guys are making progress. Personally I wouls just run a line from the tank vent to the canister with a check valve in line and then run the canister purge to the atmosphere with a check vlave inline. THe canister does not even really even do anything for tail pipe emissions.


Hope this helps.

kboehringer

DaveCS1,
You're definately NOT all wet. I went to start the car this morning to drive to work and found a large gas stain under it. Seems we are pulling fuel down the vent tube. There must have been a residual vacuum that was not released (missing purge?) It was leaking at the steel line connection to the hose. I tightened the clamps and Zip-Tied the line we have connected to the tank line purge valve (effectively plugging it). I drove the vehicle anyway and it drove well. I have checked the car multiple times since arriving at work and see no further leaking. Derek and I will sort out the hoses (again!) after work.
Sincerely,
Kurt

five7kid

Dave, you've provided a lot of good advice, but for the sake of technical correctness, I need to counter some of your statements: You are correct in the first sentence, but the purpose is to lower the combustion temperature to reduce formation of nitrogen oxide compounds (pollutants). It has no fuel economy function. However, timing curves are affected by its presence, so you need to tune based on whether or not it is present.

The purpose of the A.I.R. system is to provide additional oxygen to the exhaust gases to be available to combine with any unburnt hydrocarbons. When in open loop, the flow is routed to the exhaust manifolds, however this would provide incorrect data to the O2 sensor in closed loop, so it is diverted to the cat in closed loop. You need have the A.I.R. system to the cat regardless of which type cat you have.

Its original purpose was to maintain as close as possible consistent air temp to keep mechanical systems as close to calibrated as possible. It does still help with fuel evaporation when the engine is cold with feedback systems. The most typical observation is without it, you'll have an off-idle flat spot - I certainly did before the engine was warm with an open element air cleaner.

Cold air doesn't burn better. Warm air does tend to evaporate the fuel bette