Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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Originally posted by wgripp .At first glance without hte front bumper, your Camaro looks kind of like an 80s import. I was like... Isuzu Impuse?
We can't have that! No way we want anyone confusing this AMERICAN MUSCLE [not quite yet ] for an import. Derek had to install the nose! The First Third Gens have a "unique" look.
Kurt
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I have seen valves like that for actuation of the EGR Valve.
I hope I have not upset anybody with my post about the CC stuff. I am just wanting to see you guys get good results you have more than earned it. I don't think I have ever been this wrapped up in an internet post. I am at a point were I would put some parts down to see that thing run like it should. We can never have too many car guys in the world. Some of the best guys and gals I know are into cars!
I stumbled across this thread lastnight and was up till 3am reading it. Then i finished it off just now, and all I can say is... Wow!!
It's kind of a coincidence, too... My name is Derek too (kinda funny to read this entire thread) and for my 17th birthday (turn 18 tomorrow, woo!), just after I'd finished 11th grade, my parents bought me an '88 Firebird Formula 350. The only difference is that neither of my parents are into cars, so any and all work has been done by me with the aid of a friend of my dad's and a friend of mine.
I'm happy for the both of you, and I can't wait to see the finished project!! Take care of her, Derek, and she'll take her of you!
Originally posted by kboehringer "Whatever the "Thing" is, I will post a photo of it tonight."
This thing..............
Didn't have one on my car, and whatever it does I don't think you need it. If it's for the canister, the setup is different for a CC carbed car. If for the EGR, the ones I have seen are smaller with much smaller vacuum lines. BTW, did the pics help?
Originally posted by DAVECS1 I hope I have not upset anybody with my post about the CC stuff.
DaveCS1, ABSOLUTELY NOT. . You have certainly NOT upset us in anyway! Please don't think that. Different opinions are good. We are however, not YET willing to give up on the CCC Q-Jet.
TGO Friends, WE wanted to post a couple picks and give you folks an update.
We got up pretty early and tried to get the Z-28 ready for the Open House at the plant. Derek and I really wanted to take her but.... I had a moment of MATURITY and decided it was too soon for such a trip. We were running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to get the Carb right. We even had to drive 20 miles to get a NAPA #2776 adjustment tool. In the end, it seemed like a better choice to wait. Rather than be towed home in disgrace.
When we returned, we decided it was time to re-group forget the carb for a little while and check all of our other work, replace a couple bulbs, and do some less demanding projects before we jumped back into the Carb/Emission problems. We've been driving all over the neighborhood and it seemed like we should check all our underside work before we got the engine and exhaust hot. Lucky we did, as the sway links had not been tightened properly and the Power Steering loop was loose.
We decided to try and install a trunk deck lid cover we grabbed off a J.Yard Berlinetta a couple weeks ago so we could hide some necessary tools. Unfortunately, we found another nightmare problem. The stupid previous owner made another mess because he was obviously too lazy to pull the tank (see photo below).
I (Kurt) spent many hours last night reading Carb Board posts doing more & more searches and getting some REALLY good information from some very experienced TGO people. What's done? Float height is Perfect. Lean / Rich relationship is a Perfect 1/8" TPS Voltage .049VDC (Almost Perfect .048VDC) Vacuum gauge shows no air leaks. '86 Camaro Chip is Installed - No noticeable difference What remains? The MCS Dwell WILL NOT DROP to 30 Degrees! -
In accordance with TGO Carb Board instructions, we've started tinkering with the mixture screws and the Air Bleed Valve to try to get it down. Air Valve Tension - We'll need to adjust this after the dwell adjustment problem is resolved to get rid of the Flat Spot when we try for WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Re-Install all the Emissions Lines -
We think we're making progress...we're certainly learning . I actually feel very comfortable turning some projects over to Derek and sitting back for a moment to watch or take his photo. He has grown in knowledge and ability since this project started.
Absolutely... THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TIM! - We're goin' Junkin' Tomorrow to try to find a Baro. Now that we know how to tell the diffference by the tits inside the connector. Our connector's sleeves were loose and we could have plugged it into either variety and wouldn't have know the difference.
Thank you very much
Kurt & Derek.
As I read your post I found a couple things that were interesting. First, it was interesting that we had the same name and that we spell it the same way. Second, we both have third gens with 350 engines. A third thing that I found interesting was the fact that you got your firebird as you were going out of 11th grade and I am going to be getting my Camaro as I enter my 11th grade year. Well, my dad says that I will still be getting it as long as I keep my grades up that is. Hope you have a Happy Birthday tomorrow.
Originally posted by five7kid I haven't seen a pic since the vacuum diagram was posted. Have you got that straightened out?
Attached is a descriptive photo and diagram of how we currently have the hoses routed. I believe we need a different "Purge Valve" than those we have (marked purple). The diagram shows only two lines on the "PURGE TVS" all our valves have three lines. For today, we have just skipped the purge and ran a hose. We're on our way to go Junkin' and look for a purge with only two connections (in/out). I really thought the diagram was wrong as I figure the purge needed vacuum to open and close?
Kurt
cutting the "access" hole above the gas tank is actually fairly common.....and it looks like whoever cut that one did a good job, too!
its a lot easier to replace the fuel pump, sending unit, etc. with the access hole there instead of having to drop the rear end, drop the gas tank, etc.
My friends IROC the person had i guess made a few cuts and pried it open, didnt do a good job. Go steal a stop sign (Just kidding....buy some sheet metal) and cut out a panel a little bit bigger than the hole and find some way of attaching it to cover it up.......probably your best bet
oh, and do something about the nose!!!!!!!!!!! even if you just spray primer over the red paint, the red on the gold looks lol
oh, and if things dont work out with the quad. carb, i now have an edelbrock 600cfm carb that i can sell to ya for pretty cheap. Replaced it with a holley 650 double pumper, it'll go on eBay unless you want it. Cant GIVE it to ya (17 + no money + 2 tickets = broke. LOL), but i'll certainly beat whatever you could get one somewhere else. it has electric choke and mechanical secondaries and worked perfectly fine up until....3 days ago? maybe 4? when i took it off, so it should bolt right on and fire right up lemme know if your interested
I looked at the emissions picture I gave you again today, and noticed that it had the dual snorkel intake setup on it. I suddenly realized that it was the L69, 305 H.O. sticker, not the LG4 one!
So I went outside, since my camera doesnt take very good pictures of the sticker I just sorta re-drew the picture for you.
Originally posted by speedingpenguin cutting the "access" hole above the gas tank is actually fairly common.....and it looks like whoever cut that one did a good job, too!
speedingpenguin,
The photo of the tank does not clearly define the mess it's actually very bad. I know someone will likely disagree, but IMPO this "short-cut" is extremely hazardous. The occupants of the car are at a significantly higher risk of fire, and of being overcome by fumes if there was any problem with the fuel tank or the lines.
Derek and I have decided to cut a major section out of a J.Yard Camaro (which should fit nicely over the same area). We'll drop the tank, seal and weld the perimeter of the entire piece. If we need to get to anything in or on the tank we'll drop it. That's going to be a pretty rare since we don't have an in-tank pump.
Thanks for the offer to be first bidder on the carb but we're getting closer to having a good Q-Jet. I'm sure it's just a tweek or two away from being good-to-go. It now runs better with all the emissions stuff on, even though it may still be a little wrong.
Originally posted by sellmanb I just sorta re-drew the picture for you.
Sellmanb & TGO Friends,
Thanks for going to so much trouble for us. There is a new problem now (sort-of) our CCC Q-Jet does NOT have a "K" port. There is an area where a "K" port could be, and it is marked "K", but there is no port there?
Honestly, we know what we have is not correct, but it must be pretty close. We just returned from Auto-Zone which was the Z-28's first real trip (about 20 miles round trip) and the car ran very well especially at highway speed. There is still a flat spot/bog if you punch it to WOT at low speed but at highway speed she will get up and go PERFECTLY when punched. I don't know how fast were going (speed still wrong and 85 max) but she can move VERY VERY WELL! Derek was supposed to drive back but he forgot his wallet and I know this Z-28 is a RADAR TARGET! I didn't mind doing all the driving!!!!!
We're probably better off following the first diagram?
What do you think of the way we ran the plumbing?
Maybe we can find a middle ground that will accomplish the performance and emissions goals?
Sorry TGO Guys, we've really posted a lot of stuff the last day or so.... Hope you don't mind....we're getting close to a real Z-28!
We're gonna change the front brake pads and take another LONGER ride! GOTTA GO! GOTTA GO!
Been folowing your thread for some time. The part that I enjoyed most is the bonding factor you are getting with your son.
Going to the J-yard and cutting a piece to cover your hole over the gas tank is a good choice. Most people use screws to put the cover plate back on and some sealer between the two pieces of metal to stop and fumes and such from leaking in the car and be just fine. Just make sure you buy screws short enough as not to hit the tank. Self tappers work or regular one with a hole drilled. You can get an idea on how long by looking in the hole that you are covering up.
Welding is a good thing to do also. If you stick with the welding and drop the tank it might be a good time to check the internals of the tank. From the pic I noticed that couple of the lines had rubber hose on them. Not sure if that is factory for an 82 or from the job of the last guy to work on the gastank. Maybe replace that portion also to solid lines.(just a thought) Though they probably safe as is since no fuel is being PUSHED to build up pressure.
No electric fuel pump in tank but I think there is some type of filter that you could change.Plus would be good to see what someone prior did in there. Not 100% on what is in your tank, But good chances there are. I'm sure someone here can tell you. Better to do it while you have tank out. Dropping the tank is not a fun job to have to do more then once HEHE.
Be sure to paint anywhere you have any exposed metals. A good can paint will work for your purpose cause its not in a visible place. Being covered up by carpet and tank.
haha you got it better than my parents...i got my camaro, 5 speed and i learned how to drive on it...haha close to 300hp to the rear, it was very hard but every hour i kept improving! ive been following this thread for a while. congrats to both of you and derek u have a pimp ride, and ur lucky u got to build ur engine. i wish i could have built mine, or seen how it was done!!!!!! good luck in the future guys and nice work
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2001 Camaro SS, Hurst M6,H/C/I old #s: 395rwhp/366ftlbs
The Vacuume diagram you have drawn above should work just fine.
If you are just shooting for function and not a gold star stock reproduction. (whats the point nothing ever comes right from the factory:-)
You probably know the following but here is the summary of what the emmissions equipment on your car does.
1. The EGR valve: This valve should open under light cruise conditions and inject exhaust gas back into the intake. The goal is to substitue volume that would otherwise be using fuel with exhaust, and save gas. Also since you are reburning the exhaust there should be less emissions.
2. The VAC sensor or MAP, is monitoring engine load and adjusting timing and fuel mixture at part throttle.
3.The air management valve and those temp valves are for injecting air into the CAT to bring it up to operating temp faster. If you use some of the newer cats from CATCO, Magnaflow, and other well known brands, they really do not need this feature. The design and materials have higher flow and efficiency.
4. The stove vent on the air cleaner, is supposedly used to heat up the intake charge when temperatures are not "correct" for complete burn of the fuel. My opinion ditch this option. The problem is the components never do a good job of determining the "correct temprature" and actually a warm intake charge does nothing for a more complete burn. We all should know that air with more density (read cold) burns better.
5. The canister is just to ensure you are not venting tank fuel vapors into the air. I would check your setup to ensure you are not pulling a vacuume on the tank. From looking at your diagram it looks as if you may have some problems there. I would block the vacuume lines to the canister and see if perfromance changes. If it does not, than I am all wet and you guys are making progress. Personally I wouls just run a line from the tank vent to the canister with a check valve in line and then run the canister purge to the atmosphere with a check vlave inline. THe canister does not even really even do anything for tail pipe emissions.
Originally posted by DAVECS1 I would check your setup to ensure you are not pulling a vacuume on the tank. From looking at your diagram it looks as if you may have some problems there. I would block the vacuume lines to the canister and see if perfromance changes. If it does not, than I am all wet and you guys are making progress.
DaveCS1,
You're definately NOT all wet. I went to start the car this morning to drive to work and found a large gas stain under it. Seems we are pulling fuel down the vent tube. There must have been a residual vacuum that was not released (missing purge?) It was leaking at the steel line connection to the hose. I tightened the clamps and Zip-Tied the line we have connected to the tank line purge valve (effectively plugging it). I drove the vehicle anyway and it drove well. I have checked the car multiple times since arriving at work and see no further leaking. Derek and I will sort out the hoses (again!) after work.
Sincerely,
Kurt
Dave, you've provided a lot of good advice, but for the sake of technical correctness, I need to counter some of your statements:
Quote:
1. The EGR valve: This valve should open under light cruise conditions and inject exhaust gas back into the intake. The goal is to substitue volume that would otherwise be using fuel with exhaust, and save gas. Also since you are reburning the exhaust there should be less emissions.
You are correct in the first sentence, but the purpose is to lower the combustion temperature to reduce formation of nitrogen oxide compounds (pollutants). It has no fuel economy function. However, timing curves are affected by its presence, so you need to tune based on whether or not it is present.
Quote:
3.The air management valve and those temp valves are for injecting air into the CAT to bring it up to operating temp faster. If you use some of the newer cats from CATCO, Magnaflow, and other well known brands, they really do not need this feature. The design and materials have higher flow and efficiency.
The purpose of the A.I.R. system is to provide additional oxygen to the exhaust gases to be available to combine with any unburnt hydrocarbons. When in open loop, the flow is routed to the exhaust manifolds, however this would provide incorrect data to the O2 sensor in closed loop, so it is diverted to the cat in closed loop. You need have the A.I.R. system to the cat regardless of which type cat you have.
Quote:
4. The stove vent on the air cleaner, is supposedly used to heat up the intake charge when temperatures are not "correct" for complete burn of the fuel. My opinion ditch this option. The problem is the components never do a good job of determining the "correct temprature" and actually a warm intake charge does nothing for a more complete burn. We all should know that air with more density (read cold) burns better.
Its original purpose was to maintain as close as possible consistent air temp to keep mechanical systems as close to calibrated as possible. It does still help with fuel evaporation when the engine is cold with feedback systems. The most typical observation is without it, you'll have an off-idle flat spot - I certainly did before the engine was warm with an open element air cleaner.
Cold air doesn't burn better. Warm air does tend to evaporate the fuel better, which means better combustion, better economy, and fewer emissions. Denser air does produce better power, because the more air and fuel you get into the cylinder, the more power you make. Cooler air does not produce better economy in any case.
And, if you have emissions inspection, you need to have the thermovac system on and functioning.
Kurt & Derek: As far as your vacuum routing is concerned, you'll probably have to mix the two systems in order to provide the needed functions with what you have available. I believe "K" is a manifold vacuum source.
A non-A.I.R. cat won't be "legal" in an A.I.R.-required system. 3rd gens are A.I.R.-required.
Some states/locales don't enforce that, however, so if all they're looking for is the presence of a cat, you can probably get away with it. If they do an under-hood visual for all of the equipment installed by the factory, the non-A.I.R. cat won't cut it.
Originally posted by five7kid 3rd gens are A.I.R.-required.
It depends on which engine is in the car. The 2.8 MPFI that was in my bird didn't have A.I.R. or a smog pump and I owned the car since it was new and it was never pulled so only some 3rd gens are A.I.R. required.
Originally posted by five7kid As far as your vacuum routing is concerned, you'll probably have to mix the two systems in order to provide the needed functions with what you have available. I believe "K" is a manifold vacuum source.
Five7Kid, DaveCS1, & TGO Guys,
Derek and I will try and mix the two as suggested to get as many features of the system functional as possible. The pull of fuel down the evap line is a concern. I hope that we do not have another plumbing problem within the tank (see photo of tank access modification) that could promote an abnormality of this sort. I got stuck at work too late and Derek had a Boy Scout meeting so nothing was accomplished last eve.
We never intended to re-install the A.I.R. system as none of the components were present when the vehicle was purchased and several posts on another thread indicated that the system was of minimal value in achieving emissions compliance. We have an extremely simple emissions testing system in GA (atleast everywhere I've been tested). On an older cars if the sniffer says OK you pass. The inspectors have never looked for the presence (of lack thereof) of any components. However, I'm sure we'll need an appropriate non-A.I.R. type cat to achieve compliance.
OFF TOPIC:
I've often heard the term "Just had to blow the bugs out" and thought to myself: "that doesn't make any sense". Well....for this Z-28 it just might..... the car seems to run a little better after each drive. On the way home from work I got her going "SCARY FAST" on a nice open road.
I'm getting a little concerned about mixing THIS car with a young driver.
theres one thing i must say....no matter how much HP u have in ur car....u can ALWAYS drive it safely and follow the speed limit.....its up to the driver if he wants to do it that way
__________________
2001 Camaro SS, Hurst M6,H/C/I old #s: 395rwhp/366ftlbs
I guess if I am going to explain something I should slow down and be as technically correct as possible. I guess my mistake was trying to get all of the stuff in simple observed reactions.
I am a little confused by the egr statement (it does nothing for economy). At least in diesel engines, were I unfortuneatly spend most of my days, we see a small improvement 1% or less, with the volume that is occupied by the exhaust and unburnt fuel. Also temperatures do not seem to fluctuate all that much, but diesels do run much cooler.
As for the Stove system in the air cleaner, I guess the point I was trying to get across is that colder air will produce more power, because there is more Oxygen to mix with the fuel. I am by no means a Q-jet expert, so I have no idea what it has for a pump shot adjustment or what not. If it needs warm air it is probably a good idea to keep all that in place. I just have never had good luck with those systems.
Off the topic a little. I had a Mitsubishi mighty max that actually caught the air filter on fire when that system malfunctioned.
Your comments on the catalytic converter are pretty much on base, but Ihave passed several "Sniffer tests" with the newer cats and no air. My warm up comment is just from watching these things on the dyno and malfunctions on the road, and probably for the most part uncalled for. I have noticed that they can get very hot, but now that I think about it I do not know if it was because to much air or fuel was pumped through it. Thinking about it I would say unburnt fuel causes the catalyst reaction probably causing a good amount of heat. I think oxygen can do the same though. So I digress.
After all that rambling I have one last observation. I do not think the headers being used by Derek and Kurt have the air injection pipes.
It is possible to pass emissions without the A.I.R. if the rest of the system is operating properly. However, most places that don't care if the A.I.R. is present also have looser sniffer standards. That's probably a good thing for Kurt & Derek.
A.I.R. is primarily going to the manifolds only during open loop. So, not having it to the manifolds but having it to the cat would mean it is functional for the typical sniffer test, since they are performed only after the engine is warmed up.
Typically, cats get hot because of excessive fuel. Oxygen without anything to react with won't do anything. If already hot enough, though, extra oxygen turns into a cutting torch - but not without fuel that previously heated the system.
As for "blowing the bugs out", you're breaking the engine in. As it loosens up, it'll run better.
Originally posted by five7kid
As for "blowing the bugs out", you're breaking the engine in. As it loosens up, it'll run better.
and just dont forget about the proper ring setting procedures... and that an oil change is due in 500 miles (though since your speedo doesnt work, I can safely assume your tripometer doesnt work... therefore... guesstimate )
BTW: Something that helps me "not go fast" is that my parents made me pay for my own part of the insurance when I was still on their plan, and they told me ahead of time, any tickets, etc that I get I will be paying for, and the increase in insurance rates I'll also be paying for for those accidents and tickets.
That always made me think twice about hitting the loud pedal. "Is it really worth it?"
Just as it was looking soooo good I have to go and jinx it by mentioning how good it was running.
Took it to work again today and near the half-way point of the trip she started acting like she was running out of gas. I knew this was impossible as I just put $20 in the day before (only about 40 miles ago) but I pumped another $10 to make sure I got to work on time. After the fuel, a mash of the pedal resulted in "more starvation like performance"..... Once I got to work (barely) I popped the hood and noticed a bare trickle in the fuel filter. Ok, I'll buy a new pump. A co-worker grabbed a new one for me during his lunch and I installed it with a new filter, pretty quick and easy. On the way home..... more starvation pulled over into a Church parking lot to look..... JUST A TRICKLE into the filter. I tried loosening the fuel cap switching the Emission lines back the way they were yesterday (before the new diagram). NO LUCK.
Managed to milk her home BARELY.....
Once the car is completely cool....(That'll be tomorrow as it was over 100 degrees here today) We'll have to pull the guts out of the tank (maybe that hole ain't sooo bad - LOL) and see if something is wrong in there.
TGO Friends,
WE wanted to share this with ALL of you guys/gals. We received a PM the other day from a guy that use to work a great deal with his Dad on their cars. They had a great deal of fun together. His Dad passed away and our TGO Friend has really found some benefit to following this thread. Derek and I were moved by his PM.
Today, a package arrived from the TGO friend. He mailed us two(2) of these plaques that he makes in his spare time as a hobby. Sorry, we did not share his name, as I have not asked for his permission to do so.
We're pleased that someone received such a benefit to reading our Z-28 adventure.
Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
Inscription Reads:
1982 Chevrolet Camaro
Z-28
Built by
Derek and Kurt Boehringer
-----------------------------------------
Thirdgen.Org
---PHOTO SPACE---
5.7 / H.O. 350 - TH-700R4 "May Father & Son Projects Never Cease"
TGO Guys,
My mechanics at work have convinced me (95%) that my headers may be too close to my fuel lines and that could be causing the problem. Seems the problem starts after the engine is good & hot (about halfway to or from work) and does not occur when the engine is cold. Derek and I are going to try and move or insulate the lines to limit the amount of heat transfer.
Sincerely,
Kurt
I know they are a little pricey, but some AN lines my go along way in this application. Also I find them to be good piece of mind. They are not that hard to put together with a good vice and hacksaw blade.
I would check you fuel output with the hose unhooked from the carb. It is a new cam and the fuel pump lobe may have left.
Are you using a fuel regulator. If so you may be having problems over filling the float bowls or under filling.
Make sure you have some sort of vent to the tank. I know earlier you said you experienced some canister problems. Thirdgen tanks sit right over the muffler. This doesn't do anything for keeping the fuel cool. The tank itself may be vapor locking if you do not have a good vent. Popping the cap may not take effect right away as the gases have already unprimed the fuel system.
A fuel pressure gauge does wonders in these situations. If you cannot find one around you area, drop me a line, I know some guys in Chicago that would be more than willing to help.
Originally posted by mw66nova filter before the fuel pump. i was under the impression it had to be after the pump. may this be the problem?
MW66Nova,
We were using a J.Yard line set and the car had sat for quite a while. We wanted to avoid clogging the pump or the carb's tiny little filter with debris. The filter worked quite well and removed a large quantity of crud. The Original GM F-Body design does not appear to provide for any filtration other than the tiny filter in the Carb. as there is no in-line filter in the tank area.
I don't believe a filter on the return side would do much good? I'm fairly confident that the filter does not restrict the flow/pressure more than an extremely small amount. An engineer I work with is confident an abundance of heat in the fuel line could cause our problem. He confirmed that a tin heat shield 1/2 way between the header and the lines could solve the problem.
Got a fuel pressure gauge? If not, now would be the time to invest.
Does it only trickle out of the carb, or are you testing it with the fuel line disconnected from the carb?
There's typically a sock type filter in the gas tanks, if that filter becomes clogged then nearly no fuel can enter.
What may be happening is the debris at the bottom of your gas tank (since it's been sitting for a while and you dont know what the car has all been put through before you got it) can be clinging to the sock filter when the car is running from the suction of the fuel pump. Then once the car gets turned off the debris slowly falls back down after a couple hours.
Then the next time you start the car it'll run good for about 15 - 20 minutes until the debris clings to the filter again.
Something you may want to try is:
take the fuel filler cap off, disconnect the fuel line from the fuel pump (before the pump) and stick a line from your air compressor to it and let 'er blow (beware a full gas tank may/should spit out a little bit of fuel... be forewarned you will have a mess).
This should make sure the sock filter is not clogged, and if it is, then it isnt anymore hah.
Of course, dont try this until after what your engineer suggested... I'm just a measly shadetree at best lol (heck, should make sure we do have the sock filters... I know the other 2 GM cars I've taken gas tanks apart of around that era [80's]) have had them)
The pickup in the tank should have a sock filter. In combination with heated fuel, you could vapor lock.
The typical approach is to put an in-line filter between the pump and carb. This requires cutting a chunk out of the metal line. There isn't much room for one in our cars, but it can be done. It is usually easier to push fuel through a filter than it is to pull it through, so having a filter on the pump inlet could lead to fuel starvation problems. At any rate, it has probably protected your pump during your initial running. After all, the pickup sock could be toast, letting tank debris into the line.
There is also the possibility that the stock electric pump is still in the tank and making it even harder to suck fuel. If you are planning to fix the hole in the rear above the tank, now might be a good time to drop it and take a look. I would clean the tank out, replace the sock, and remove the old elec. pump if there. I would then get rid of your external filter before the mechanical pump and run just the one in the q-jet.
FWIW, I've run and helped build a couple of carbed 3rd gens with headers, and never run into a vapor lock problem (even though the factory fuel lines are right on the frame by the header).
Originally posted by Lo-tec There is also the possibility that the stock electric pump is still in the tank and making it even harder to suck fuel.
We've pulled the guts out of the tank and found that the electric pump had been removed. The sock was relatively clean. The hose (red in photo) is obviously not stock. It was extremely "soft", we don't know what this device is supposed to look like, but the wire to the float is in very poor condition and the red hose will need to be replaced with something designed for this type of application. Even though it's not perfectly correct, it doesn't appear that there is any problem that would have prevented proper fuel flow from the tank. We will get a new J.Yard unit this weekend. I (Kurt) am also very very uncomfortable with the "CUT & SPLICED" lines to the top of the tank that do not have a flare to accept rubber hoses and create a proper seal. We'll grab the entire fuel float & pick-up set-up.
Quote:
Originally posted by Lo-tec
I would then get rid of your external filter before the mechanical pump and run just the one in the q-jet.[/b]
Now that we have run a bit of good fuel through the J.Yard lines the external filter has probably served it's intended purpose. We'll remove it tomorrow.
Originally posted by five7kid In combination with heated fuel, you could vapor lock.
Quote:
Originally posted by rocluvr0013 Sounds like vaporlock to me....
After pulling the tank's guts out we're pretty well convinced that the heated fuel is the "PRIMARY" problem. We may not have had the problem earlier as it has not been as hot as it has been the last few days (100 +/-) It's mighty difficult for the engine compartment to shed ANY heat under these conditions.
If we remove the PASS header, we should be able to bend and tuck the fuel lines even farther under the A/C condensor unit and increase the space between the line and the headers to about 1-1/2" (see photo). In "Stock" form our cheapo headers would actually rub on the fuel lines. We did modify the stock path....apparently not far enough.
Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
P.S. The engineer's opinion was solicited as I was trying to determine if a very special and expensive Titanium Foil (we have in stock at the plant) could be used effectively to reflect heat away from the fuel lines. Unfortunatley, the Titanium foil I have available would (according to the engineer) allow heat to pass through much too easily. According to him....I'd be better off with a piece of tin.
Appologies all around....NO INSULTS INTENDED!
Last edited by kboehringer; 07-27-2005 at 11:55 PM.
AN is another version, instead of standard 3/8" tubing, to have your hoses routed. You can typically get flexible stainless steel braided lines, and put your choice of AN sized fittings on there. You can get adapters from AN to standard american sizes as well so you dont have to get a special fuel pump.
The beautiful thing about these lines is how easy they are to fit where you want them to.
Do a little looking around on eBay and you should get a idea of all the stuff you'll need (3/8" to 6AN adapter, 2x 6AN end fittings, however many feet of the braided line you'll need)
Hope that was of a little help?
edit: btw. I'd just go to www.earls.com and find out what all you can get, then set yourself up with the right length of tube, and end fittings from somewhere that sells the parts (summit IIRC)... I dont think you'll want to buy from earls.com since they're based in australia and shipping would be outrageous
] for an import. Derek had to install the nose! The First Third Gens have a "unique" look.
lol 
lemme know if your interested 
Better to do it while you have tank out. Dropping the tank is not a fun job to have to do more then once HEHE. 
I have NO hair left! 
