911rsq

After reading that, I sure will be. Thankfully I will be priming mine in the garage... the ol' lady would kill me if I even got a drip of oil in the house

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I've been using 276S since 1999 (before that in another engine, actually). World recommended 276 plugs for their heads, so it seemed like the thing to do. I took the screw-on terminals off each plug and put the far end in the vice and squeezed it down just a little. It requires pliers to reinstall. Makes 'em good & tight.

kboehringer

Since we have no garage, we received permission from the WARDEN (aka. My Wife Nancy) to prepare the engine in a small mud room that is only used by the kids and could NEVER be seem by a friend/guest. Unfortunately, part of the "DEAL"was to promise to finally tackle replacement of the Lino. Flooring, wall painting, etc., in this area that I have ignored for years......

Derek and I will abide by our portion of the agreement unless I plan on spending an extended period of time on the Couch!

Sincerely,
Kurt

speedingpenguin

iTrader: (1)

hahahahaha
that sucks, but at least your holding up on your end of the deal...
can we expect updates/pictures on that project as well? LOL

flyitlikustolit

5/7 , I'm running Sportsman II's, and I picked up some accel shorties. what are the 276S you're talking about? I'm looking for a good plug to run in my angles plug S II's and still work with hooker 2210 longtubes.

C h r i s

Wow fun build - I haven't read all the posts but it looks like a great family project. I'm in Atlanta (Marietta) and built a 406 for my '80 El Camino a few months ago. PM me if you need to - maybe I can help you avoid mistakes I made.

Chris

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

276 are regular length Accel plugs. 276S are short 276 Accels.

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
Dad thought this would turn out better but it is easier to read than in our photo. We couldn't find a better piece of steel to stamp these into......
Sincerely
DEREK

kboehringer

911rsq,
We did as you suggested. I took an extra Alt. spacer and turned it on the lathe. I have no reservations about the diminished bracket. It's probably over-engineered as it is
Sincerely,
Kurt

kboehringer

Five7Kid,
Thanks for the idea. A "little" squish of the tip would keep 'em on.
Sincerly, Kurt

911rsq

Stamping that stuff into the body tag is a GREAT idea!!!!
Now you will never forget where it all came from, and if you ever sell it, the new owner will know too!!!!

91blkta

This is turning out great love this post keeps me comming back to read more. If you find the parts I asked for let me know in a private msg. No rush just bought a grand prix gxp 5.3l so the Trans am has been sitting lately while I enjoy the new toy. This post will be a great read for anyone who wants to take on this type of project and see all the pit falls that go with it. Wishing you well in your project and all the great bonding time.

kboehringer

TGO Friends,

We FINALLY got the Engine and Tranny In the Z-28!

We started the day mighty early trying to finish the final prep of the engine bay. The Fuel supply (above the tranny) was smashed flat and after careful consideration decided not to try and mend the line. Off we go to the J.Yard in Georgia's unbearable heat (90+ Humid Degrees today). We got lucky and found a carbed Z-28 with no driveline and perfect lines. We also found the Mixture Solenoid Assembly in perfect condition.

Unfortunately, we could not beg, borrow, or rent a load leveler for the engine hoist and fought with the tranny and engine combo for a heck of a while until we finally decided to remove the headers... Instant success it dropped dead on the motor mounts!! The headers slipped right back on with no trouble..... We took ALL of your advice and are glad we did; NO Carb, NO Dizzy, NO Water Pump, No Wiper Motor, NO Pulleys, If ANY of that stuff would have been on... It would have been either busted or in the way.

That's about as far as we got before 11:00 pm and Derek and I were both too tired to continue safely and effectively.

We hope to make her run tomorrow!
Then we'll no longer be the "Unfortunate Engine Swap Victims" but rather a Fortunate Engine Swap Father/Son Team (Derek's Idea - Kinda Corny)

We'll post a pic or two and get some good ones posted tomorrow.....

EVERYBODY: Have a safe and enjoyable 4th of July - Drive Safe!

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
Just another Pic of the Install.....

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
Derek and I have been talking (and writing you guys) about how we would like to keep the exterior of this car "Stockish 1982" Well I couldn't resist a minor temptation when I saw it in the J.Yard today. If we clean these up an repaint them to match the car (eliminate the chrome for gold paint)...... what do you think? They're from an OLD OLD Chevelle.... Thoughts?
Sincerely,
Kurt

911rsq

Congrats guys.....looks like a fun day!!!!!!
That's awesome that you found the part you needed at the J-Yard.......
Congrats!!!!!!!!

91blkta

I dont see anything wrong some indication of whats under the hood. If its Tastfully done than go for it!! Lookes like you guy's had a long day, going to sleep good tonight!! Everyone have a safe and fun 4th and enjoy the time spent with family and friends.

speedingpenguin

iTrader: (1)

sweet!
Doesn't it feel good to finally have an engine and transmission in the car? I know it did when I did that, lol
Be sure to get video (if your digital camera is capable) of the first startup! :-)

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
Wanted to get her running today but that's not going to happen due to thunderstorms. Managed to get a few items completed although we're still finishing up the underside items. Here's a photo(s) from earlier today before the rain dampened our progress....
Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

P.S. Hopefully, Five7Kid won't object to a plug for one of the sponsors..... The F-Body CD has been worth EVERY CENT (about $20?). We took the Z-28 apart several months ago and have had a little bit of difficulty remembering an item or two. The CD's expanded parts diagrams have resolved questions....AND we can look up part numbers "ourselves" and have A.Zone do a cross reference rather than going through the process of ordering parts for three or four different models.

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
We got her put together enough to try a start-up but had no success other than spits and sputters. We have fuel, we have fire, we have compression.... Guess we just have to get the timing and quantity of the three together properly. Trouble-shooting tomorrow.... Sincerely, Kurt

sellmanb

Great! Glad it's at the "fine tuning" point now


You'll find it a lot easier if you have one of you turning the key (and pumping the gas pedal... it's carbed after all ), and the other turning the distributor slowly.

If fidding with the timing doesnt work,

Double and triple check your firing order, and where the spark plug wires are going... then after you do that, have the wife make sure it's right... as my girlfriend always says "the woman is always right"... I just figure a fresh mind is less likely to be caught in the rush

Then double check for spark and spark quality by taking a spark plug out, set it near something to ground on (this will have the spark go to that place, so choose carefully lol), and inspect for spark, or spark quality.

After that, assume it's carb related... you guys rebuilt it, and I know on my first carb rebuild there was a few extra springs and such that were left over that I figured "eh, who will know the difference" lol


This shouldnt be too hard to figure out, assuming you did the timing chain correctly heh.

Oh, what did you set your spark plug gap to? Not what MSD recommends I hope heh. the stock specs .035 is perfect.... spark gap is typically more aimed towards compression ratio, rather than the "power" of the ignition.

911rsq

Lookin' good guys! I feel like I am just 2 or 3 steps behind you, as I am getting ready to paint up the engine in the next few days and then bolt on the intake.....
I must say that your engine really looks good in there. I am not usually a fan of the black painted blocks, but your's came out really well. I think those silver brackets really set it all off! Good luck with the weather. I can't wait to read the post about it getting fired up soon....

Edit - P.S. Since you just went thru this, what did you set as the gap between your oil pan and your oil pickup (screen)?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No problem here. I fully understand the issue. I'm not modifying nearly as much as you, and I've had to spend time finding something I took off 5 weeks ago. For instance, I spent 10 minutes last night looking for the fuel pump mount bolts until I remembered I had put them in the new fuel pump box - had I just pulled the pump out before running around like a headless chicken, I wouldn't have wasted that time.

I'll post some pics of my progress later (and in my own thread). Mine is even "blacker" than yours, all the brackets black, chome valve covers, but the intake is also black because they paint the ZZ4 crate intakes (and I didn't feel like stripping off the paint).

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

All I have to say is OUTSTANDING! I have seen projects linger on forever (ie. me!). That engine is looking nice and that car ought to be a good cruiser when it hits on all 8. I agree with Derek. You guys are fortunate engine swap victims. You have found and pieced together a ton of stuff. It takes most years to accumulate all the necessary parts. With determination and a good work ethic. you have succeeded in months. Derek should put that on his resume. I would give it a second look if it was in my pile.

As for the car not starting, this is more times than not an occurance that happens to weekend shade trees (no offense I hope, that is what I consider myself) I would start with a timing light and a pint of fuel poured into the carb. Keep all appendages away from the carb after the fuel is poured in. If it starts you have a priming issue. if it belches out the carb the timing is advanced, if it belches out the pipes it is retarded. If it just kicks and makes weird noises, well the plug wires are not in the right order. Check for voltage at the dizzy and the ALT.

kboehringer

Thank You. You have no idea how many little tiny pieces we've been scroungin' around junk yards for. You (and quite a few others) have been helping us from the beginning and know how buggered up this vehicle was. There are have been countless times we've been in the J.Yard and said "Our's doesn't look that like that (or that nice).....we better get that thing also". We've mentioned most of what we're doing but there are other projects (mostly interior) we're also working on.

None taken. Derek and I ARE weekend shade trees! IMPO we're probably a little better mechanics than many amateurs.

It definately kicks and makes wierd noises! We only had a little bit of time to troubleshoot today because of a B.Ball game. We checked all the plug wires and they're in the correct order and on the correct plugs.

I thought that MAYBE I had installed the Dizzy one plug off. Ya' know how it spins in 1 extra spot as it engages the Cam? We'll I pulled it and turned it back one click, aligned the pump, and dropped it back in. We had even less luck . Maybe I went the wrong direction...

We'll start over from step #1 and check everything properly. TDC, Compression Stoke, Pointing at #1, etc. etc. We'll also check the voltage at the Dizzy & Alternator as you suggested. I'm confident that I've screwed up the timing, one way or another.

I am taking a four day weekend. Either tomorrow Eve, or Thursday we'll make it run!

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek (still awake cleaning up the tools)

sellmanb

If the distributor seats all the way to the intake, then you have it on the right tooth. It just needs to be sat on the oil pump driveshaft. You can then loosen the distributor bolt, and just turn it back and forth until you get it close enough to start and grab the timing light.

Sounds like you're soooo close

Does the motor hiccup at all? Backfire? Diesel? Crank and make clunking sounds every now and then?

Can you hear the solenoid in the carb running after you turn the key w/ no avail?

Did you get a remote coil, or is yours on the cap? Are you sure you have that wired up correct?

As I ramble on, I give less and less likely things to look at... keep with the simple stuff, it's always something simple

kboehringer

YES, YES, NO, YES, Hadn't noticed or heard the solenoid. When we first tried start-up it flamed/back fired through the carb several times. Leading me to believe we were well in advance of the proper firing location. Obviously, the intakes were open when fire/spark was applied allowing the "fire" to travel back up the intake rather than drive the pistons downward. When I retarded the ignition we heard nothing but the exhaust Y pipe was hot as if there was some firing going on late. That leads to to wonder about the quality of the spark and the compression? If we've got improper action on the valves (due to misadjusted rockers) I could probably cause a similar problem. I think we should have the rockers close enough for a start-up. However, we're going to make another compression check to verify that the valves are in fact completely closed. on the compression stroke(s).

I think we need to start at "A" and work to "Z" and verify everything.

Sincerely,
Kurt

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It can be sitting all the way to the intake and be completely off. It can be a half inch off of the intake and be on the right tooth. Sitting down all the way is a function of having the oil pump driveshaft aligned, not having the distributor on the right tooth.

Sounds to me like you've got it 180 off. That is so easy to do (and I've done it more times than I'd like to admit). Like you said, start at "A" and work your way to "Z". You'll probably have it somewhere along "B" or "C".

sellmanb

Guess I need to go back to Distributors 101

My understanding was that as long as it sat all the way, you can still just turn the distributor back and forth until it's right (granted, if you are a lot off, then you might want to re-stab since it wont look like a clean install what with the #8 in the #1 position, etc )


180 off sounds reasonable to me as well... I spent a good 2 hours getting my distributor in the right position (mostly me sitting on the inner fenders, with a long screwdriver, and flashlight, trying to get it to go right. And one time I got it right, then realized the hookup from the base of the dizzy to the top of the cap wouldnt reach and I put the distributor in backwards lol).

Fine details now, you guys will get it soon enough... definetly by Derek's birthday heh.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Since the distributor teeth engage the cam teeth before the distributor shaft gets down to the oil pump driveshaft, you can't turn the distributor shaft to align the oil pump once the distributor has engaged the cam. What has to happen in order for it to "drop in all the way" is the oil pump driveshaft slot has to be about an 1/8th of a turn counter-clockwise from where it will be when the distributor drops down all the way.

The simple way to do it is to get the distributor on the right tooth, don't worry about whether it drops down all the way, and turn the engine over until it does when the oil pump slot and distributor tang align themselves.

Of course, then the engine is no longer in the #1 firing position.

kboehringer

SHOOT! Why didn't I think of that? I've been;
(1) crawling into the engine compartment under the hood and over top the carb,
(2) jammin' my face over the Dizzy Hole,
(3) shooting a flashlight down the hole,
(4) using a huge screw driver to rotate the pump a little,
(5,6,7,8) taking three or four shots at it each time to get the dizzy to drop to the bottom at the "intended location" (you'll notice I didn't say "correct" location).
I could have just given the the starter a couple clicks until it dropped..

We tried again last evening but decided to give it up after I was struck by lightning! NO KIDDING! Not a direct hit, but close enough that I felt the hit and my feet were numb for about 30 minutes. "Derek let's get inside this is stupid!"

Sincerely,
Kurt

911rsq

Sounds like you have the "spark" part of all of this covered.....
Bad jokes are fun

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You may need to hold the distributor up slightly when doing the bumping. I've had the pump turn with the distributor, even though the slot/tang weren't aligned, due to the weight of the distributor pushing down on the driveshaft just hard enough to turn the pump via friction. Most of the time, though, it just drops in.

sellmanb

That would have saved me a couple hours of work as well lmao. Thanks for sharing the "insider's secret" with us



Struck by lighting huh? Been going to church lately? I bet you havent (and that's why I work on the car inside my garage )

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
Spent the whole day screwing aroud with this engine trying to get it to start. NO LUCK. The dizzy has been in and out so many times it's unreal. Here's the A-Z list that has checked out so far.
A - Rockers adjusted properly....
B - Compression 120 +/- on all Cylinders
C - Spark Nice Large and Bright Blue
D - All Plug wires correct
E - TDC Compression Stroke Pointing #1
F - Fuel - Plenty (not too much not too little should start)
G - Air vacuum leaks --- Should be none
H - Brand new battery (today)

The biggest problem I've noticed is the speed of the turnover. The engine is very tight we've run the oil primer again to try an lubricate her a little more but it's awful tight. The cylinders are not going to get any real additional lubrication unless the crank splashes it up into those areas and with the speed it's turning over that's not too likely. We've even tried ether/starting fluid with no luck (I personally hate the stuff and only used it as a last resort).

I'm going to run down to my office and grab the Fluke multi-meter to check the coil (via Haynes manual instructions).

Very discouraged and at wits end!
Kurt & Derek

flyitlikustolit

keep goin. i had similar problems. i killed my battery just trying to get my fuel pump primed. chrged it, then tried again. all ain all, it took me 3 days to fire the engine.

911rsq

Did you get any noticable gains by using the ether??? The engine should def try to roll over much better with the starting fluid compared to just gasoline. I noticed that you say the engine is still very "tight". You said this before when you were just putting her together as a short block. People kind of blew this off and changed the topic, but it may have something to do with it... I'm just not sure what. I just got the heads back on mine and it really wasn't difficult to turn over as a short block, or now as a long block.
I think I would contact the machine shop that did your work and check with them. They may have a few ideas that we don't. Let them know about what problems you have had with it being hard to turn over. It may be something simple that they have seen a thousand times before.

You know we are all rootin' for ya, so don't get too down on it. Just remember that this is the fun part . Someday Kurt will tell the story to Derek and HIS son about the time they were putting that motor in that Z28 sittin in the garage and how it took 5 months to do all the work, but in the end it was well worth it....

BruceEmbry

I have to say, it should not be that differcult. When my TPI instillation was done back in 98, the engine fired right up after the timing was corrected.

If the engine turns over then it shouldn't be too tight. I can remember having problems with jump starting the old LG4. We used to have to connect the jumping running car for at least 20 minutes, before it would start.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

I know were you are coming from. I have had engines that just do not seem to respond to anything. Then you start asking around and all the info you get is stuff you have already thought of. It can be pretty disappointing, but you know, everyone of those engines finally started, and I think they are all still running, so DO NOT GIVE UP!

So now I will offer you some advice you have already thought of :-)

Have you verified TDC by looking to make sure both valves are shut?

If I remember right you guys went with a CC carb set up. Your computer my not be working or the timing map is too far off. Do you have access to a normal distributor? It should work with the carb. It may not run to smooth, but it will tell you if there is a problem with your setup.

One thing I have found is when you think you have given the engine a nuff gas to start,,, add more.

I do not think the engine is to tight if it is turning over. If you are worried, it may not hurt to shoot some oil down each spark plug hole, especially after that hit of ether.

Good Luck!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Uh, under the shade tree, you mean...

120 seems pretty low for a tight engine. Did you have the accelerator and choke fully open when you did the compression check?

Are you absolutely 100% sure you got the timing dots together when you installed the timing set?

BruceEmbry

Hi guys,
I remember that if you disconnect the CC computer connection to the distributer, then there is not spark control used. You have to do this in order to set base timing.

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
We've had "0" luck and the engine is extremely hard to crank (basically seazed). I spoke to the machine shop and they want to double-check their clearances. I told them after the pistons were in that it seemed mighty tight but they assured me that if it could still be turned by hand it was good to go..... GUESS NOT.

FIVE7KID; I did not have the choke open when I did the compression check, maybe it would be higher? The dots were absolutely lined up perfectly. The pistons were thoroughly lubricated and installed properly, the end gaps checked perfect. ALL Torques were followed to the letter.

I may tinker a little tonight (I have a stupid idea, I'll only tell if it works) but I've been ignoring the rest of the family over this car for months. I have little desire to dump any more money into this vehicle, Derek is rather heart-broken. If pulling this engine back out becomes a requirement, there is no way this thing is ready for his B.Day. I'm probably going to give up (atleast for a while) before I kick the fenders in!

I'll let you know if my stupid idea works.....

Discouraged,
Kurt

JPrevost

New starter?

speedingpenguin

iTrader: (1)

That sucks, guys!
Keep at it though, dont give up, it'll be worth it in the end. Just a thought, someone had mentioned putting a few drops of oil in the spark plug holes, how bout a few drops of gasolilne or starter fluid or whatever, might give it a little extra kick just to get it goign?
Dunno, just a thought that came to me

Good luck anyhow

sellmanb

If I recall correctly you guys had your distributor from LT1guy, or a junkyard or something... previously used, and the condition of the distributor cant really be vouched for (no offense LT1guy, just saying a used dizzy that's not been used in a while can rot itself away).


Also, did you get that LT1 mini starter? Or just the cheap Bosch rebuilt units that CSK offers?

I know that when my LT1 mini starter works ( dont ask, it's not common) it spins that thing with a quickness!


Also something to think about... you guys have probably tried starting the car so often now, that even if you did get everything right on, the spark plugs might be fouled out, which would give you the same symptoms.

Another thing... do you have ALL sensors hooked up? Especially including the coolant temperature sensor (not the one in the head). If this is not hooked up, or working properly it will tell the computer it's like negative 260 degrees outside, and pour fuel in to compensate for it, which would obviously result in a fuel/air mixture that would be impossible for you to attempt starting with.

Lo-tec

I would try a starter. If not, the engine is probably too tight. According to my little friend (the guy with the pork chops from the 70's version of "how to rebuild your small block chevy") it should take 35-40 lbs-ft max to rotate the short block.

I agree with 5-7, 120 is way low for compression...unless your starter was toast. My 100k mile been in 3 cars 1st time rebuild had 165 psi after 100+k miles and nitrous....and I've never opened the throttle blades for a compression test

Silver_Panther

Maybe the initial timing is set a little to far advanced? Is the carb "sneezing"? Is there any sign that its trying to start? To check that you've got the distributor set right you can take the #1 plug out and put your thumb over the spark plug hole tightly covering it. Hand crank the engine over untill it starts pushing air out through the plug hole. No matter how hard ya push ya shouldn't be able to keep the air from coming out. Thats the #1 compression stroke. Pull the cap off and check to see if the dizzy is pointing towards the #1 spark plug wire or atleast really close. If it is then your good to go there. If it's not pointing towards #1 then take the distributor out and rotated the dizzy and reinstall it so that it's facing towards #1 plug wire. But if its on #1 already then try loosening the distributor and turn it clockwise a little then try to start it. If its too far advanced then it will make it very hard on the starter to turn over. If ya got spark and fuel then there's not much reason for it not to atleast act like its trying to start.

Silver_Panther

After you retarted it, it basicly sounded like a poping in the exhaust pipe, and a rather "different" exhaust tone right?

All of these signs point towards the distributor being 180 out. ESPECIALLY blowing the flame through the carb. I bet if you simply pull the distributor out, (take note of where the dizzy is pointing) and put it back in facing 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Put the cap back on exactly how you took it off (DO NOT rotate it 180 degrees as well). I bet from there with a little bit of twisting of the distributor for the initial timing it'll start right up. If it feels like the starter has a hard time turning the motor over then turn distributor and cap clockwise a bit until it cranks over easy and fires up.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If the choke and throttle aren't held open during a compression check, the readings will be low.

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
Seems she's trying very hard to start again.
Last eve I ent to the 24hr. A.Zone and purchased a new starter & ignition coil. The new starter is the Delco-Remy style and is much more powerful (and heavier) than the one we had. Before we tried anything, I removed all the plugs and shot oil into each of the cyls. Then we ran the dizzy primer for a good five minutes. After that we intentionally overfilled the crankcase with oil and ran the starter without plugs for many revolutions to get some splash effect into the lower cyl. walls (that was my dumb idea).

Once complete we installed all the plugs and the new starter and had no problem turning her over at a damn good speed. The thing almost started.... Everyone came running out of the house as the Z-28 started to rumble but that was it (about 2-3 seconds worth) as it flooded out immediately. We had similar luck all day as I've been connecting and disconnecting wires and hoses. I dismantled the carb and re-stepped through all the directions and found no discrepancies. I'm sure that a few stinkin' hoses or connection are causing SOME of the current trouble.... Just have to figure out which one(s)!

We were able to get a base set of the timing with the lamp (should be kinda close) and we've verified and re-verified the valve springs. Looks like we have to perform a bunch of additional dwell checks on the carb components but I supect the Mixture Solenoid thinks there is a LEAN condition and is dousing the intake with fuel. IF we can get the fuel mixture/quantity correct (or close) I really think she'll start.

We're going to do some searching on the carb threads for more close-up photos of the hose routing on a '86 era CC-Quad set-up. In particular the routing from the carb bowl to the canister. and the tie-in for the PCV. If anyone has some (or can take some) please send PM or post 'em.

I won't sleep until this thing runs (Derek will). Damn that 2-3 second rumble sounded good! We want more!!! We ain't pulling that motor out...... It's gonna run if we have to push it!

Thanks to everybody for helping the last day or two.......

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek