Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled - Engine Swap - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

kboehringer · 02-20-2005, 10:04 PM

(Moderator note: This thread is a TGO legend, one of such popularity as is rarely seen on this Board. The original title is within the thread box above. In honor of the great spirit and tenacity, to say nothing of good work, that Kurt and Derek demonstrated, it is being added to the Engine Swap forum Sticky list. For those of you reading this for the first time, be prepared to spend a couple of hours on it. For those on dial-up, I suggest you open up another browser window, and start downloading the next page while you read this one - that will keep it from taking 4 hours to read!

Congratulations again to Kurt and Derek - may your project live in all our hearts until 3rd gens are no more.)

I recently (1 month ago) purchased a 1982 Z-28 with the intention of working with my son (age 15) to return it to good condition. It'll be his if he completes 11th grade with all "A's".

Unfortunately, I purchased the car on EBay and I had no real opportunity to look it over.

The previous owner, who had absolutely NO mechanical ability (and probably no common sense) replaced the engine with different type of engine (probably from a 1983 Firebird Eng.Id# V0303DUK). The original Cross-Fire is long gone, and in it's place sits a Rochester Quadra-Bog and a manifold full of plugs, capped lines and mis-sized nuts and bolts. The car has retained it's original wiring harness but it has been HEAVILY modified, cut, spliced, burned, shorted etc. Duct Tape and Hot Glue (YES.....HOT Glue!) are everywhere. Believe it or not the darn thing actually runs.

The original computer is still in place and the original wiring harness (what hasn't been cut, spliced or burned) with plugs for injectors, ox sensor, air temp, egr, idle control etc., are litterally "hanging around." The jury-rigged wiring is also keeping some of the instruments and idiot lights from working.

The only wires currently "connected" to this engine are: Coolant Sensor (which doesn't work) & Distributor Wiring.

I'm am now on a first name basis with all the Junk Yard managers in my area.... Finding an original motor w/intake & Cross-Fire is a little far fetched for a 23 year old car.

At this point, it seems like returning this thing to anything even sort-of stock is out of the question. Here come some of the tough questions.......

What if anything is the computer good for at this point?
Can I replace it with the proper computer for a 305 with a Quadra-Bog?
Should I just remove all the wires that no longer have a purpose back to the computer?...Some of them are still electrially "hot" when the ignition is on. I can tell by all the sparks..LOL

The Z-28's body is in great shape as it is probably native to the South and has NO rust and appears to have avoided any major accidents. I can't fathom giving up on it......

ANY Ideas, suggestions, or instructions would be greatly appreciated....

Sincerely,

speedingpenguin · 02-20-2005, 10:21 PM

Welcome :-D
I like the color first of all.....

are you dead set on keeping the engine pretty much stock/origional, or would ya concider just ditching all the computer crap and putting in a carb'd 350? I'm in the 11th grade as well (you said it was your son though, meh) and my firebird origionally had a 305 TBI, but was replaced with a carbuereted 350.....unfortunatly i'm looking for a new engine and transmission now, as the old ones were crap

How much $$ are you looking to spend, and what do you want the car to be for mainly? I guess it depends on that, cause i mean you could buy a used 305 for a few hundred bucks and put it in and be happy with it, or you could buy a 10,000 dollar race engine and put that in.....
depends on what you want out of the car and how much you wanna spend :-)

RB83L69 · 02-20-2005, 10:30 PM

The wiring and all that from a computer-controlled carb 305 is pretty easy to come by, and very easy to install inspite of looking intimidating. That might be the easiest and best way of dealing with the situation..... assuming of course, that the carb and distributor that are in there, are of the computerized variety. Are they?

F-BIRD'88 · 02-20-2005, 10:45 PM

Swap in a GMPP 350 Ramjet EFI crate motor. Get the optional Closed loop EFI package.
Upgrade the mild Ramjet camshaft for a LT-4 Hotcam and springs.
Easy 425hp+ low 12's

kboehringer · 02-20-2005, 10:54 PM

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the prompt replies....

The Distributor is not original as it has the standard Junk Yard markings all over it. It look just like the Dist. I had in my 78 T/A,
Standard Coil on Top HEI(?).

The Carb must be rather old as it has NO electrical input/functions on it at all.

What I want the car to be is
1.) Safe.
2.) Reliable
3.) Safe & Relaible.
4.) Attractive
5.) A little fit of FUN!
6.) Safe.
I do not want a 400hp screamer. I had that with my T/a and I DON'T want my son having that kind of power.

I have the ability to put several dollars under the hood, but not a fortune. We intend on pulling the motor and having it checked, acid dipped, honed or bored if necessary. Replacing all the bearings and seals. The heads will get new seals and guides etc. That should get me most of requirement #2 above.

I can purchase an aluminum intake and a good carb (Please make a suggestions on the intake & carb ). The car is past the sniffer test here in GA as it is over 20 years old. I know EPA is federal but I'm not too concerned as I bought the car from a Police Department (Court Ordered Forfeit) and I have a statement that it was modified.

The problem is the wiring.....

Where, or from whom, can a different harness be purchased? Guess-timate a good price?

Thanks again,

P.S. For anyone curious the purchase price was $775.

7plagues · 02-21-2005, 12:56 AM

should just got him a v6....

...i mean.... how bout putting a crate 350HO the one rated at 330hp?

RB83L69 · 02-21-2005, 06:26 AM

Does the distributor have a vacuum advance?

If not, it's a computer-controlled one. They made them in the coil-in-cap variety, until 87.

Is there something wrong with the engine per se? If not, you'll spend no telling how much on that, and then when time comes to put it back in, .... you'll be right back where you are now, except with a lighter wallet.

I'd strongly recommend doing a little more research, before doing the yank and rip thing. You could easily go from bad to worse, especially in the bak account department.

JoBy · 02-21-2005, 09:03 AM

Sign up here: http://www.crossfire.homeip.net

All the knowledge you need is there, and you can probably find all the missing parts too. You can keep the engine and bolt a Cross-Fire intake on it and get it close to stock if you want to.

XChris1632X · 02-21-2005, 10:03 AM

my vote is just to put in a carbed low output 350 that way when he gets older and and your willing to let him have more power he can do simple mods.

speedingpenguin · 02-21-2005, 11:20 AM

if ya need crap from an 86 IROC with a cc quadrajet, lemme know soon, i can get ya a bunch of stuff for a good price

five7kid · 02-21-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kboehringer
I have the ability to put several dollars under the hood, but not a fortune.

The best way to make that car safe is to change that pronoun to "he".

It doesn't much matter if the engine is a hot V8, mild V8, weak V8, V6, or I4, if he doesn't respect it and drive it like he paid for it, it won't be safe once it's out of the driveway.

It looks like you've got a nice car, there are just some "issues" to sort out; but getting him out under the hood and sorting them out will help him appreciate it that much more. I would recommend finding out exactly what you've got - engine (including block & heads casting #'s), carburation, exhaust, transmission, etc. After you have that information, advice as to where to go from there will be much more useful.

Air_Adam · 02-21-2005, 01:41 PM

I suggest doing what I did with mine...

Look around in the paper, junkyards, etc... for a smogger 350 thats in good shape. I found a really nice, stock 350 out of a '79 Z28. It ran great, good compression, oil pressure, etc.

Anyway, thats the engine I got for my '83 Z28 when the 305 was dead. It was just yerbasic smogger 350... 8:1 compression, lame cam, 180hp, etc... but the nice thing about it was it was already a 350, which means that later on when I had money, it would be easy to upgrade to make some decent power.

I was in Grade 11 when me and my dad put the 350 in my car. 180hp sounds lame, but its easily enough to wallop most HS kids cars, and have alot of fun with. And since then, I've slowly upgraded it with a few things, like a new intake, carb, exhaust, etc... and power does come from the 350 much easier than from the 305. I have no regrets about adding more CI to the car.

MrDude_1 · 02-21-2005, 02:18 PM

im with AirAdam on that.

if you dont want a high HP car, and its somthing he wants to build on a budget, then build up a simple smogger motor.

get a 350 block, but keep somthing like 882 heads on it and a performer (non-RPM) dual plane intake..

you'll still be a slow car (for a V8) but he'll have the pride that he did it (or helped do it, whatever the case may be) and have somthing hes proud of, but you wont have so much power that he cant control it...

the nice thing is, you'll have a solid shortblock for later, higher output builds... and the smogger heads and non-performance intake are cheap.

and with such a mild motor, no trans, rear or reliability worries..

more of a stock rebuild from a diffrent car motor then a performance build.

athough if you really want to go EFI, id understand.. its nice to learn the electronic stuff from the getgo...
in that case, id look on the crossfire boards for ideas.

dimented24x7 · 02-21-2005, 03:00 PM

If you have to pass the sniffer test then FI might not be a bad idea. The closest thing to a low buck bolt on FI system would be one of the 86-89 tpi systems (complete of course). IIRC, the 89 would probably be the best. You have to pull the wire harness anyway so youll just be putting the ecms harness back in with all the other stuff. With the proper camshaft, TPI will give decent seat of the pants feel without alot of top end power that can be used for things like wrapping the car around a telephone pole.

Wireharnesses are always a pain, so no matter which way you slice it, youve got alot of work to do. Im in the same boat with an 88 blazer. Why is the wiring always their preffered thing to chop up?

stenseltizm · 02-21-2005, 05:24 PM

I have an 83 z-28 parts car that i'm only using suspension, tranny, and rearend. I don't think the wiring harness is hacked. the guy I bought it off of pulled the block when he blew it up, then i bought it to swap the driveline in a v6. If you wanted to, the intake would probably bolt on to the block you have now, and give you back the stock cross-fire injection.

kboehringer · 02-21-2005, 11:05 PM

Gentlemen,

Thank you for so many good ideas and great information. Here is what I think we're gonna do based upon your input.

I'm going to check with a couple of the people and places suggested to return the car to the original cross-fire. Although, I am pretty sure that is not the best course for this car for a couple reasons;

1.) I'm pretty good with repairs, provided I was the guy that took it all apart. In this instance that is not the case and "remembering" or "marking" where all the stuff came from is not possible. Haynes and Chilton's have almost nothing (Haynes actually has NOTHING) on the cross-fire.
2.) We (Derek & I) will have to buy everything back to original that is missing... Air Pump, Air Pump Lines to All Manifolds, Air Cleaner(s), Distributor, Wiring Harness, All Hoses (Water & Air), Sensors etc. so therefore, buying the intake and injectors would be only step #1 of a multi-step process.
3.) If it's converted back to Cross-Fire...... We (mostly I) wouldn't know enough to tweek it here an there when we are ready for a little performance or even when it acts up and that is absolutely inevitable.
4.) Although you folks have been great you're not going to want to answer questions about every wire and plug on a daily basis.

At this point I think several of the members of this forum have convinced we that putting a mild little 350 in the hole with some mild parts is the best course.

Way back when (about 1985) I was the extremely proud owner of a '78 T/a with a 400 (6.6). I remember how few the options for performance parts and accessories there were for me. The guys building the 350 Chevys had litterally thousands of performance parts and accessories available at a fraction of the cost from several vendors, I had only a few expensive options. I even remember when you could buy a aluminum intake right off the shelf at the local parts store (Twin-Bee of VA Beach / Norfolk) for a 350. ANYTHING for a Pontiac was a special order. It appears that is kinda the same story with a 305 vs the 350.

The main idea was to get together with my son before he is gone to college in a couple years. I want to teach him the basics INTAKE, COMPRESSION, POWER, EXHAUST.... BRAKES, STEERING, and COMMON SENSE DRIVING. I also want him to know enough to keep his vehicles running properly and avoid getting ripped off by those few unscrupulous mechanics out there when something is a little to big to handle on his own.

A 350 is probably the way we're gonna go... Maybe the knuckle-head that trashed the cross-fire did us a favor (not really) as we'll have to spend MANY hours together getting this thing to a "RELIABLE" condition. We might even build a 350 in my tiny little shop area of the house, using the jury-rigged 305, until we're ready to do a swap.

My son and I read ALL the messages together that you guys sent to us. We've decided to work on the BRAKES for the next couple weekends until we get a better idea of how much the entire car needs. Safety is MY #1 concern.... I better make it STOP....BEFORE it actually runs well.

Thanks again... All of your input is greatly appreciated.
(I'm sure we'll be back for more)

P.S. Most of the Camaros I've found in the junk yard are pretty well picked over but if anyone need that special little something maybe we can help find it at one of the local yards. Most of our parts are relatively rust-free in GA (something I couldn't say about our Native state of PA). Let us know maybe we can help return some favors..........

Sincerely & Thank You,

Kurt & Derek Boehringer
Peachtree City, Georgia

five7kid · 02-22-2005, 02:21 PM

Keeping us posted on progress will be sufficient reward.

I'll repeat my suggestion to find out exactly what you've got. Just as it isn't too surprising that the crossfire is gone after 23 years (first 10, most likely), it may already have a 350 in it as well. Find out! There's no sense in spending money to get something you may already have.

To answer an earlier question, you can remove all of the computer-specific harnessing and keep what you need - distributor power, tach, oil pressure, engine temp (in the head - the CTS is in the thermostat housing), alternator, and most likely, choke power. They separate out fairly nicely, in fact. The computer isn't doing anything for you as it is now.

305 vs. 350? Actually, there isn't much difference. As long as you aren't talking about pistons, rings, or valves (and, technically, heads themselves), everything is the same within similar eras. Everything I put on my 305 will fit the 350 shortblock I have in the works. And, the 305 does run pretty decent, actually (better than I'd turn a 16-year-old loose in, anyway).

JoBy · 02-22-2005, 02:59 PM

The computer may still control timing if the stock distributor is still on there. The stock one is a large HEI.

five7kid · 02-22-2005, 03:22 PM

If the computer is not getting proper inputs, it will default to limp-home mode. That is built into the ignition module.

However, he said it is a junkyard-marked distributor, assumed to have been put in in order to de-computerize it.

Assumed, but a reasonable assumption.

kboehringer · 02-22-2005, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by five7kid
I'll repeat my suggestion to find out exactly what you've got.

We have verified that the engine is a 305 from a Pontiac, probably a firebird. (Engine ID# V0303DUK= Flint, Day03, March, 305 Firebird). The Distributor is definately equipped with Vacuum Advance and therefore not an original.

You are absolutely correct..... We're gonna look everything over. and check the numbers on the Trans, Rear, and Heads. There is no telling what else we'll find.

Thanks for the info on the Computer.... We'll finish what the previous owner started by removing the unnecessary wires back to the computer rather than have them laying on the maifolds and fender wells and sparking and shorting everywhere. Some of them will give ya a pretty good zip if you touch 'em when the engine is running.....

Thanks again,

Air_Adam · 02-23-2005, 12:41 PM

Why not just remove the computer system entirely? Its not difficult. I did it on mine last spring in about a half hour. Its just got two screws holding it up under the dash, and has the wiring fed through the passenger side of the firewall. All you have to do it unplug the wires from the computer itself (should just have a connector clipping onto the computer) and then pull them through the firewall from the engine-side of the firewall. Once thats done, you just follow those wires around, and unplug them. Since they are not on the computer anymore, they arent doing anything. Some may have to be cut, as they will feed into connectors with other wires going elsewhere, but theres only one or two of those. It sounds like a PITA, but its not that hard really.

92heritageRS · 02-28-2005, 06:36 PM

This is good stuff. My first car was a 88 tbi LT camaro maroon and gold. I was 15. It had a blown head gasket and other comon issues like brakes and heater core like most third gen's. I mean it was a tipical beat down camaro. My father guided me along but it was up to me to get off that school bus. So he got me my first chiltons and let me use his tools.

We ended up gettind a 350 from a 1500 pickup($800), a edelbrock performer, and I (while working at target) put in the money for a barry grant claw (wich is a demon now) because I thought it looked cooler than the edelbrock QJ. I started hitting the chevy HP mags and the internet and started picking up stuff like MSD 6A and billet dist. He made me do pretty much all of it. If it took two people of course he would be there and at first he would check my work. I would sit in the driveway all day on saturday trying to do stuff like drum brakes but hey, I owe it to him I am the mechanic I am today. That was about 6-7 years ago. Now I am an A&P aircraft mechanic

Right before I graduated my parents put a down payment on the 92 RS I have now and sent me on my way. The 92 is 100 times better to start a project than the 88 was. Check out my home page. My point is I agree with five7 he has to do the work and he won't wreck it. I loved my 88 and it was ugly!!!

super_kev · 02-28-2005, 08:26 PM

You could do the carb thing, but you might want to look into doing a TPI swap. I get 25MPG on the freeway doing 70. If you have to start from scratch, I'd do the TPI. More work, but what do you want... a good gas guzzler that's easy to work on, or a nice fuel efficient car that's almost as easy to work on? It's true that there are more electrical wires here and there, but it's not bad at all and it's still easier to work on than any of the cars made in the five years or so. My

fbody83 · 02-28-2005, 08:54 PM

I have a 350 block bored .030 over with the bottom end in it sitting around. It just needs to be hot tanked and rebuilt. I have iron heads with it too (not very good ones) but the motor made almost 300hp which is a nice range for you son. The heads might need to be checked out too but I'll give them to you for almost nothing. I also have a Carter 750cfm carb that came with it, some valve covers, all the bolts and what not, timing chain and more. The 750cfm was too big though so I would get a Holley 600cfm for it instead. PM me if your interested.

Matt

kboehringer · 03-01-2005, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 92heritageRS
This is good stuff. ........I loved my 88 and it was ugly!!!

You guys have been great... This is becoming a great deal of fun for both of us. We appreciate all your info. and responses.

As planned we worked on brakes the past weekend ++. It turned into a monster project . After we disassembled the brake drums we realized that the previous owner had installed much of the hardware improperly. In addition we found several other problems. In the end we replaced; 1.) Shocks 2.) Sway Link Ends 3.) Wheel Cyls., 4.) Shoes 5.) Brake Lines 6.) Rear End Cover Gasket & Oil 7.) Wheel Bearings & Seals 8.) Bolts that broke during disassembly 9.) My son Painted everything UGLY!.

My son replaced the shocks and sway link ends by himself. Reminder: Never tell a 15 year old to hold the top of the old shock with a vise-grip to hold it while loosening the nut. You guessed it..... Trashed threads at the top, nut impossible to remove.... HACKSAW time!! I learned to give PROPER instructions.

We took all the parts to my plant and HE Bead Blasted them free of rust and crud. Then HE painted the ends of the Drive Shafts and the Backing Plates Gloss Gray, the Drums and Rear End Cover got and UGLY Gloss Yellow. We worked together to put all the springs and such back in the proper locations using the Chiltons. I held the shoes as HE installed the springs, retainers etc. The bearings, seals, and drive shaft re-install was done my me with the rented slide hammer and a Mapp Gas Torch..... I had to let him watch that part. We also had to go to the junk yard to get replacements for the axle pin retaining bolt (also vice-gripped to death by the previous owner).

All-in-all we only spent about $150 and we were together all weekend. The parking brake actually works and the brakes seem to work quite well.

Over the next few days Derek gets to CLEAN all my tools and place them back in the PROPER locations in my boxes. This weekend we'll double-check the bleeding of the rear brakes and maybe spend a little time evaluating our engine plans.

We'll be back with proper engine swap/info questions this weekend.

I'll try to post a picture of the UGLY drums and Rear.

Thanks again,

Kurt Boehringer

Thought you'd be tired of the Drum Photo.... This is the way my son see the "Ugly Yellow Drums" not too bad after the rim is on...