Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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i am going from a v-6 to 400 what kinda radiator would you recomend and because my firebird has t tops would i have to brace the body so it wont twist??
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i am going from a v-6 to 400 what kinda radiator would you recomend and because my firebird has t tops would i have to brace the body so it wont twist??
i have a pontiac 455 with a griffin 4 core alum rad. dual 12" electric fans , 160 degree thermostat, and i cant get it to run cool. 170 to 190 degrees at an idle. and over 250 driving it. got me stumped. thought it should be the other way around. and most people will tell you to brace it.. but if you dont plan on putting super sticky tires on it for traction,,, well, what's the point. IMO.
i have a pontiac 455 with a griffin 4 core alum rad. dual 12" electric fans , 160 degree thermostat, and i cant get it to run cool. 170 to 190 degrees at an idle. and over 250 driving it. got me stumped. thought it should be the other way around.
You're building up air pressure under the hood. Is your cowl sealed only to the air cleaner? If not, the pressure from the windshield is overcoming the pressure in front of the radiator.
You're building up air pressure under the hood. Is your cowl sealed only to the air cleaner? If not, the pressure from the windshield is overcoming the pressure in front of the radiator.
wide open pin on glass hood. never thought of that. i'll try taping a piece of cardboard to close up the hood and see what happens.
I was just wondering about weight, how much would an 86 t/a with a pontiac 455 and a t-350 weigh roughly?
isnt stock weight with the 305 around 3100?
im just wondering because I have a 76 esprit and it weighs 3700+ and I have access to an 86 t/a and was considering the swap.
my car was a 305 car, and i have the factory springs still in the front.
i saw somewhere that a all iron poncho motor was only about 100lbs more than a all iron sbc.
since i have deleted the ac, heat, power steering, emissions, battery, cruise control, and almost anything else that isnt needed to run the car sits slightly higher in the front then it does in the rear.
__________________ Looking for 12-bolt or 9"
For Sale: 10 bolt with all the goodies, 3.73, less than 1000 miles on it.
my car was a 305 car, and i have the factory springs still in the front.
i saw somewhere that a all iron poncho motor was only about 100lbs more than a all iron sbc.
since i have deleted the ac, heat, power steering, emissions, battery, cruise control, and almost anything else that isnt needed to run the car sits slightly higher in the front then it does in the rear.
my engine is actually a 428 out of a 68 grand prix or some other boat. Im considering aluminum heads, a victor manifold, and roller cam. so that should drop about 50 lbs off the motor.....from the sound of it I should go with maybe the kauffman heads as opposed to the round port edelbrocks? I dont mind running a cowl hood scoop, I just wish it woulf fit under the Ram air style hood.
yeah if you can PM me the build info that would be much appreciated. ive got a engine waiting for a build, and not sure what way im going, but you really sparked my intereset.
was this a pump gas motor?
__________________ Looking for 12-bolt or 9"
For Sale: 10 bolt with all the goodies, 3.73, less than 1000 miles on it.
yeah if you can PM me the build info that would be much appreciated. ive got a engine waiting for a build, and not sure what way im going, but you really sparked my intereset.
Ok, so I might be the only chump who is obsessed w/keeping his stock hood, but I'll throw this question out there and hope someone knows something about it. Edelbrock makes a dual quad intake called the p-65 for poncho. It's some kind of vintage design from the 60's that they keep in production. "So what", I say till I start reading the specs for the hieght of the carb pads...it appears that the way they measure it it's actually a slightly LOWER profile than the performer intake which is an exact replica of my vintage cast unit (which topped w/a Q-jet fits nicely now)! Interesting. Edelbrock carbs look fairly low profile as well...could just be my imagination, I've never had one. if I topped a p-65 w/2 650 avs carbs thats 1300 total cfm, theoretically, and it might all fit under my hood. Question being: would it be purely eye candy or would I get performance comparable to the guys running victor intakes? The whole setup if I do it right w/proper hardware and linkage and w/2 new carbs will run me $1200 or so...too much to spend for cosmetics, but cheaper than a set of alum heads, and not a whole lot more $ than a victor/dominator combo w/air cleaner and fuel log. Anybody know anything about this intake setup?
Ok, so I might be the only chump who is obsessed w/keeping his stock hood, but I'll throw this question out there and hope someone knows something about it. Edelbrock makes a dual quad intake called the p-65 for poncho. It's some kind of vintage design from the 60's that they keep in production. "So what", I say till I start reading the specs for the hieght of the carb pads...it appears that the way they measure it it's actually a slightly LOWER profile than the performer intake which is an exact replica of my vintage cast unit (which topped w/a Q-jet fits nicely now)! Interesting. Edelbrock carbs look fairly low profile as well...could just be my imagination, I've never had one. if I topped a p-65 w/2 650 avs carbs thats 1300 total cfm, theoretically, and it might all fit under my hood. Question being: would it be purely eye candy or would I get performance comparable to the guys running victor intakes? The whole setup if I do it right w/proper hardware and linkage and w/2 new carbs will run me $1200 or so...too much to spend for cosmetics, but cheaper than a set of alum heads, and not a whole lot more $ than a victor/dominator combo w/air cleaner and fuel log. Anybody know anything about this intake setup?
What about weight issues??? How much heavier is the big block versus what we have in them now??? How will this affect handling..My car seems kinda nose heavy anyway......Would love to hear from you guys who have a big block in your car....Thanks, Tom
Ok.I know this isn't the for sale forum but this is probably where most of the Pontiac guys will look,so if it is ok I would like to post something I have for sale specific to them..
I have a set of 1.65 Harland sharp full roller rocker arms that were used in my 455 for about 50 miles...I had to change them out because it was too much lift for my stock heads...I was unaware of this till I broke springs and bent pushrods...lol...but They are still in great shape and I don't have the car anymore so I need to get rid of them...they are from summit...part # csp-s6001-65 they are $225 there I would take half or less or be willing to trade some stuff....thanks
i have lots of pontiac parts in my basement too. if anyone needs anything pontiac related let me know. we have heads, manifolds 455 blocks, trans'. just email ber101@albright.edu if you need any pontiac parts
I have a question, I have a pontiac 400 for sale near me that I am thinking of buying, but it is out of a 67 Pontiac Catalina. Would I be able to run that on premium gas without haveing to add any additives?
oh yeah..I don't see why not..I have done it before..just swap the points for an elec. ign. and maby get a new or rebuild the carb...it should run fine...
the tomahawk intake is junk.. http://www.pontiacpower.com/Chinese%20Intake.htm and as for running the 400 on premium, you usually have to run premium fuel in it anyways. i know my litte 350 pontiac in my 73 lemans demands 91 or it diesels when i shut it off. come to find out in the glove box is a sticker that says "run at least 91 octane unleaded or low-lead fuel".. go figure, and its only 7.6 to 1 compression, hah!
yeah, my 76 Bonnie had the mighty 7.6-1 cr too, and when I sold it back in 01 it was still running like a champ (wife wanted a car she could reach the pedals in, and alsowanted a car that wasn't 19' long) I just put in 87 octane in it. same w/teh 77 T/A i had, 87.
If you are having a problem with your motor fitting under the hood, it is because you have not changed the stock pontiac block mounts to aftermaqrket ones that put the motor at the same crankshaft center height as the stock SBC motor.. pontiac mounts are about 3 inches taller than chevy mounts.. and that said, when I first dropped my 500 horse pontiac motor into my firebird to check fitment, I was able to close the STOCK steel hood with only a missing air filter and filter stud. this motor has an edelbrock torker intake and q-jet carb.. If I get my hands on a set of aftermarket mounts that lower the motor to the correct height, an aircleaner will fit with no problem.. not to mention having a taller cowl hood.. If you have fitment issues, you either have a HUGE intake or you're not using the appropriate mounts. If you use stock PONTIAC mounts, your drivetrain will be up on an angle from the driveshaft and throw the geometry off.. this will cause premature u-joint failure and vibration at certian speeds. If you don't believe me, you can measure the height of the pontiac mount holes in relation to the crankshaft centerline and compare to the SBC mounts.
Also.. pontiac produced a largew number of cast iron manifolds that were similar to the old mopar cast iron "headers".. many of these function almsot as well as headers and will make fabbing an exhaust much simpler. otherwise, you can buy a set of headers to fit the large pontiac cars and you will just have to modify about 7 inches back fromt he collector.. this portion will have to be angled inwards to follow the front framework. you can then run dual pipes or cross the driver's side over to the pass side behind the transmission and run a 3 or 43 inch pipe.
Anyways.. I've posted MUCH of this info before, but people keep asking the same questions as the information is not being read...
First, any progress been made on finding a set of poncho headers that can be used in a third gen firebird?
Second, I need to retain the computer controlled carb on my 84, but was interested in this swap. I realize there's issues with getting the proper spark timing/fuel ratio curves for a poncho motor, but what about the distributor? Will the Chevrolet distributor work? If not, does anyone know if there exists a poncho distributor that will work with the computer control?
There's a TON of references int his thread on who and where to get the proper headers for this setup.. and NO .. you can not keep your computer and quadrajet setup. Your computer is programed for the exact setup you already have int he car.. so putting a poncho motur under that carb will just be disaterous. Chuck the computer or find someone who has created a chip for a combo such as this.. You will need ALOT of info about your motor to get the right chip. cam specs, etc etc.. Just save yourself the headaches and go to the regular carb..
There's a TON of references int his thread on who and where to get the proper headers for this setup.. and NO .. you can not keep your computer and quadrajet setup. Your computer is programed for the exact setup you already have int he car.. so putting a poncho motur under that carb will just be disaterous. Chuck the computer or find someone who has created a chip for a combo such as this.. You will need ALOT of info about your motor to get the right chip. cam specs, etc etc.. Just save yourself the headaches and go to the regular carb..
PS: and READ THRU THIS THREAD....................
PS: READ THE DAMN THREAD YOURSELF!!!!! I read it several times over, and all the specifics you're blabbing about AREN'T THERE!!!!
Your recommendation to “…go to www.performanceyears.com and go to the "Tech Forums" link and do a search for "3rd gen 455" or "3rd gen swap", things like that..”
… also gave no constructive information for installing headers,,, none that I could find, and I searched for hours.
Your second link: http://webpages.charter.net/ta455/ … says “The last set we tried to fit was my $5 swap meet hooker headers for a 70-81 Firebird….” But gives no information as to header numbers. Hooker makes several header designs for a 70-81 firebird with different geometries, so this really doesn’t help me.
Dataturbo6 mentions that he tried both Hooker 66 GTO long tubes and 2nd gen F-body headers, but again gives no information as to design/part number of the headers, nor are there any specifics as to what would have to be modified to make them fit,,,, other than a mention of reworking the K-member.
Besides this nonspecific information, LT1guy posted the following:
“After I move (in 2-3 months), I'll mock up my 455 in my 87 and try several sets of off the shelf headers for other applications (Flowtech, Heddman, Hooker) to give people a better idea what will be necessary. I'll bet some will work as is.”
…. which is what I based my question on.
You then tell dataturbo6 that,
“You need to look for "D" port style manifolds or headers. Modifying some full size car pontiac headers is not a big deal. Just make a small "Y" pipe after the trans pan into a 3 or 4" factory style exhaust. As i've said a 1000 times, there's links in this thread that go to pictures of the whole thing completely done step by step.”
But again you don’t give the link,,, unless of course you meant the link above which doesn’t work.
There are multiple mentions of manifolds, and links to them but not HEADERS.
dataturbo6 then posts that the Indian Adventures headers also require modification of the K member when the Indian Adventures motor mount adapters are used to drop the block to the proper height,, and later it is mentioned that the quality of them is not that good,,,, especially for the price.
Hedman shorty headers are mentioned by Kross4031, but I might as well just use good manifolds if I’m going to do that.
You later posted:
“…you can buy a set of headers to fit the large pontiac cars and you will just have to modify about 7 inches back fromt he collector.. this portion will have to be angled inwards to follow the front framework.”
WHAT LARGE PONTIAC CARS??????? Catalina? Bonneville? The larger “mid size” Lemans/Tempest/GTO???? And furthermore, what brand of headers? What part numbers? What years? The geometry of the headers is going to be highly dependent on all these things, and NOTHING YOU’VE POSTED GIVES ANY OF THIS INFORMATION.
Then you go on to lament the person you were responding to about not reading the thread,,, then lament me for both of my questions…
You’d be better off to drop the arrogance and not treat people like idiots. I already noted that there’d have to be work done to correct the fuel/spark curves for the computer controlled setup,,, I’m well aware of that, and of what I need to do to make it work, and wasn’t asking your EXPERT advice on that information. What I asked was if there existed a Pontiac distributor that would work with computer control system. I was thinking that the 81 T/A’s may have had Computer Command Control, and that’s why I asked.
So unless you feel like elaborating on the "...TON of references in this thread on who and where to get the proper headers for this setup.." or know anything about a Pontiac distributor for CCC, then don't even reply to this post.
I don't know if you addressed this, but the 4 speed 82 recaro T/A I'm putting a .060 over 400 poncho in has a double drilled bellhousing (chevy and BOP). This swap is gonna be a snap but thought I'd tell you about the bellhousing in case you didn't already know.
ive got an 88 firebird tbi the motor that was in it when purchased was blown so i bought a used motor which is a 91 they are both 305ci's but the old motor was a roller motor and the new one is not will i run into any problems?
i also have a couple more questions.
1.do i need all emissions wiring to be pluged in for it to run
In case anyone is interested in retaining your computer controlled HEI distributor and Quadrajet while performing a pontiac engine swap, the following two links will be very useful.
This one is a link to GMCOPO custom ZZ4 computer chips. The order form is very detailed in the motor specs requested.... They ask for everything from bore/stroke, to heads and cam info, to rocker ratio, to tire size and gears, and even valve spring type. Give them the cash and get your custom chip in the mail. You just need the 1228079 computer. You also get the option of knock sensor or no, and manual or auto tranny:
you seem to know alot how about helping me with this, iv got a 77 trans am 400 i want to put it in my 92 trans am tpi how to swap the 400 in and try to conver the 400 to tpi cheaply or just get that 400 in?
you seem to know alot how about helping me with this, iv got a 77 trans am 400 i want to put it in my 92 trans am tpi how to swap the 400 in and try to conver the 400 to tpi cheaply or just get that 400 in?
He's right, you'd have to fab up your own TPI intake for the most part. That could be pretty difficult but could be done if you're good at fabbing. Somewhere in this sticky, there's a link to a multi-port fuel injection intake that can be used, but not TPI.
Dropping the poncho 400 in your car is certainly doable, and can be for the most part a bolt-in swap. You can get motor mounts from Indian Adventures. The type of transmission you have can make the swap more difficult or easier, depending on what you have. There's adapter bellhousings and plates out there from several manufacturers like McLeod. There's a buncho of information on tranny swaps at the beginning of this thread as well.
Depending on what type of exhaust you want to use will determine how much fab work you may have to do.
Hi all.
Just wanted to let everyone know that there's a new supplier of cast aluminum bellhousings designed to mate a Borg-Warner/Tremec T-56 transmission to a BOP (Buick Olds Pontiac) engine. It's made by Weir Hotrod Products, and will permit use of an 11 inch clutch and comes with a hydraulic throw-out bearing setup.
Has anyone tried the swap using a 2004R? I'm planning on using one in my project, but it doesn't look like there's a place to mount the torque arm. The tailhousing looks nothing like the 700R4 we took out of my buddy's GTA.
Sorry about that, I found it on Jeg's website. I was thinking the arm was universal then you had to by a specific mounting kit. Thanks for your help, looks like a better option.
If anyone wants to save some money i think the hurst th350 swap kit will work and it is much cheaper than the jegs one. There is also a th400 kit. If anyone knows could you get back to me on if this would work or not.
heres the link:
th350 http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb....Z5Z5Z50000136d
Just read through this whole post. Heres what I got from it... Actual mounting of the poncho V8 into these cars is very easy with the IA swap mounts. Everything "should" clear the hood. Exhaust is a absolute freakin mess if you try and use headers! I have a 92 bird with a TBI 305/700R4 that I am getting ready to rebuild or replace, the car also has A/C. I'm also restoring a 79 formula and have a spare 400 from that project. SO heres my idea I want to throw in my spare 400, buy the BOP trans adaptor, and get the lowest profile square bore intake I can find. Get a TBI to square bore adaptor plate which I know are made for like $30. Adapt the the 305 sensors over, drop in a truck 350's high flow rate TBI injectors, get a custom burned chip and a larger radiator. As far as exhaust I say use the stock iron manifolds from a second gen which from my understanding were some of the best FACTORY manifolds made, port them a little, have a muffler place fab up a custom Y-pipe and run a after market exhaust like a 3" flowmaster or something. I could be wrong but as far as the distributor I think the factory HEI off the later second gens are basically the same design as the 3rd gen units just the spark curbs change and the shafts the go into the engine are different. The power steering pumps are basically the same ones so its a simple hose hook up. In therory I think my idea would work.
The only things I'd worry about are and this is my question to you guys.
1. the low amp alternator on these older engines won't power everything has anyone tried to adapt a later model alternator to our brackets? I'm sure it could be done.
2. if I'm using my stock trans with an adaptor does anyone know how much this moves it if at all in relation to the torque arm and drive shaft? I'd like to retain my stock one if possable.
I want to keep everything under the hood and the car looking stock, its a base model so it would make a good sleeper. By the way I find it pretty ironic that most of the guys on here are doing this poncho engine swap with camaro's lol
__________________ 92 Firebird, 305, TBI, 4L60, Mods: K&N air filter, poly trans mount & endlinks, accel cap, rotar, wires, coil, and boush platimum plugs.
~Show em the bird, light it up and watch em in the rearveiw...
Sorry one last thing I forgot to ask with this swap will the engine be clear ok if you have the stock A/C on the firewall? I ask because the few installed engine pics I've seen are on eather non A/C cars or just plain have no heat or A/C and have welded a plate over the spot. And has anyone tried to hook it up? I wonder if the compressor setup from a 2nd gen would work.
