Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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Anyone wieghed thier car before and after an aluminum block, head, water pump, etc. swap? I'm looking to be under 3000 lbs(and about 400bhp with a stelthy 383) and I'm debating on an alum. block vs. the stock iron one. Also are we a Gen I style block? What are the differences(Gen I, II, III)? I've done a bunch to reduce the wieght already(alum. water pump/starter/intake, headers, no rear seats, fiberglass hood, no A/C, etc.). I also plan on buying a carbon fiber driveshaft and T-5 trans. when the time comes. I'm just trying to figure out the details in the meantime. Thanks for the help in advance. I also read the late night quest for 2800lbs thread.
__________________ '54 5 window TPI 5.7/700R4/10 bolt posi w/3:73
'85 Chevy P/U TPI 5.7/700R4/10 bolt w/3.73
'88 IROC TPI 5.7/700R4/ 9 bolt lim.slip 3:27
'99 Tahoe Vortec 5.7/4L60E/ 10 bolt posi w/4:11 Doing my part to warm the globe
Carbon fiber driveshafts stretch over time. If you are making serious power, you may even want to avoid aluminum driveshafts, unless maybe they are 3.5 or 4".
My car is probably in the high 3100s or low 3200s. It was 3320 before I started weight reduction.
I would not bother with a carbon fiber driveshaft while using the easily broken T5 still as well. An aftermarket 3.5" aluminum shaft would be fine. I don't see that T5 lasting long anyways, I'd go T56 for sure. Furthermore, an aluminum block is over 2k, if you're spending that kind of coin just swap in a LS1 engine instead.
I disagree with the "buy a LSX". I sure it can be done for less than a aluminum SBC. but then you got to change out the wires and crap. I HATE all the wires and BS on my 4gen. I will be soon removing every stock wire and going with a BS3 race harrness.
My aluminum Motown block was $3000,heads $2700, twice as much power as a LS1 priceless.
Oh I do agree with the carbon drive shaft. Over prices and scare the **** out of me. I have a 4" aftermarket driveshaft( has held a 900hp SB2 in a 3rd gen in a 9.28 et).
I disagree with the "buy a LSX". I sure it can be done for less than a aluminum SBC. but then you got to change out the wires and crap. I HATE all the wires and BS on my 4gen. I will be soon removing every stock wire and going with a BS3 race harrness.
My aluminum Motown block was $3000,heads $2700, twice as much power as a LS1 priceless.
Oh I do agree with the carbon drive shaft. Over prices and scare the **** out of me. I have a 4" aftermarket driveshaft( has held a 900hp SB2 in a 3rd gen in a 9.28 et).
it might not be pretty to look at it, but you cant beat LSx 15 degree heads and the ecm tunning abilities they offer over our thirdgen stuff. The ported stock lsx heads flow more than most aftermarket sbc 23 degree heads, with smaller runner port volume to boot. I think 3000 on a block only for sbc could be better spent on a built 383 LSx shortblock which can go for 3500-4500 bucks. its money well spent i think
A carbon fiber driveshaft is about $700. I have a 3" steel shaft under my car which is more than strong enough and doesn't add a whole lot of weight. I can find better places to spend $700.
Remember, reducing weight just doesn't mean replacing parts with lightweight ones. It also means removing anything not required for speed or safety. Your factory doors if they have power options are around 105 pounds each. They can be gutted down to about 60 pounds each.
Are you building a street car or a race car?
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Hardtail Racing
All engine, no power adders! Bests: 9.029@150.45 (at altitude)
Theoretical sea level performance 8.623@157.05
I understand there are cheaper ways to get what I want, however, the appearance of stock is also a must for me. I will be painting said alum. parts black and removing any castings that would be a give away. I really want to lift the hood and appear fairly stock minus the headers. Here's what it looks like now with 225,000 miles on it:
This will be a toy when I'm done. I've heard the CF driveshafts can handle extreme hp, so why is everyone against them? The T-5 can be built and will be lighter than the T-56. My rear is a 9 bolt 3.27
Thanks for the Gen I, II, III info. BTW, my L98 has reverse flow water pump. Oh this wont be a race car, just a toy with 400 BHP. I'm keeping the stereo and PW/PL
__________________ '54 5 window TPI 5.7/700R4/10 bolt posi w/3:73
'85 Chevy P/U TPI 5.7/700R4/10 bolt w/3.73
'88 IROC TPI 5.7/700R4/ 9 bolt lim.slip 3:27
'99 Tahoe Vortec 5.7/4L60E/ 10 bolt posi w/4:11 Doing my part to warm the globe
T5 can be built and will STILL break due to case flex, no way around it. That 9 bolt should live for a while though, but your thought on keeping the engine bay looking stock like that with a stock TPI on top is pointless. Just won't support the power you want and be stock appearing.
it might not be pretty to look at it, but you cant beat LSx 15 degree heads and the ecm tunning abilities they offer over our thirdgen stuff. The ported stock lsx heads flow more than most aftermarket sbc 23 degree heads, with smaller runner port volume to boot. I think 3000 on a block only for sbc could be better spent on a built 383 LSx shortblock which can go for 3500-4500 bucks. its money well spent i think
True but what is the cost of all the other parts and acc.? There are great heads out there in 23*. Lsx flow great mostly cuz of the 15*. I have a LSX motor Not on that ever came in an factory GM but About the same, then I have a SB2 motor 18* heads and Now my aluminum Motown with 23* heads.
Best one when it comes to flow is the 23* at 370cfm at .650 lift. Then the 18* them the 15*. All are setup differnet (800hp N/A EFI, 900hp N/A carb, 900hp TT) so the flow isn't the most important. And with a goal of only 400hp, looking stock, and cheap. I say a iron block with aluminum acc. He is far from needing a Motown,SB2, or a Dart block. So scrap the idea of a 3K block. He could use a 2bolt 350.
well yes money wise the iron block is cheaper and alumn assc. would cut some weight off but the problem of tuning is still there. OBDII is still the easiest to tune for around 400hp. And 400hp on a two bolt i guess would work but I would be worried about it if you drive like i do. It is strong but i like four better and six is the best IMO.
But if you absolutely want a sleeper looking engine then do it. I'm in the same boat but i gave up on all the TPI and TBI tunning and disappointments. Look at the TPI board and see what they are doing. Then go to LS1tech and see what they are doing and compare.
when it comes down to it your pocket book decides what you get. Also almost as important is how much time and energy can you devote to it. We can all give opinions till our faces turn blue but it's all about your ability, pactience and $
... the appearance of stock is also a must for me. ... Oh this wont be a race car, just a toy with 400 BHP. I'm keeping the stereo and PW/PL
I guess I don't see the point. A 400 HP toy isn't that hard to build Gen I, II, or III (although stock appearing 400 HP TPI would probably be the hardest and maybe even most expensive of the three). What do you intend to accomplish with weight reduction and stock appearance?
I know it's not the cheapest easiest way to make a light wieght 400bhp motor. I was just asking how much wieght I'd save going all alum. vs. iron block with alum. assc. I know the T-5 and TPI will be fine as my buddy has ran both with similar bhp. I'm not arguing about wether I can make it to 400bhp with TPI or if it's cheaper with the LSx. I'm just curious how much wieght I'll save. I know the manual trans. is lighter and has less hp resptriction. I also know anything that rotates/moves with wieght(crank, pistons,flywheel, wheels, driveline, etc.) also play into you overall bhp. My specific goals are to create a 400 bhp '88 IROC with a stock appearing underhood. i'm already running a 58mm TB and AZ. S&M runners. When I finish the build I'll have the base intake from Edelbrock and the plenum sent away from extrude honing. The inside parts for the 383 will be built with lightwieght parts. See my vB garage for more specific goals and ways I plan to get there. Again thanks for the heads up on your opinions. Also thanks for answering my ?'s on the wieght savings(100 lbs.) with the alum. block.
__________________ '54 5 window TPI 5.7/700R4/10 bolt posi w/3:73
'85 Chevy P/U TPI 5.7/700R4/10 bolt w/3.73
'88 IROC TPI 5.7/700R4/ 9 bolt lim.slip 3:27
'99 Tahoe Vortec 5.7/4L60E/ 10 bolt posi w/4:11 Doing my part to warm the globe
I guess I don't see the point. A 400 HP toy isn't that hard to build Gen I, II, or III (although stock appearing 400 HP TPI would probably be the hardest and maybe even most expensive of the three). What do you intend to accomplish with weight reduction and stock appearance?
Have it be a sleeper with a 7-8 to 1 wieght to bhp ratio. The new Caddy '09 CTSV will be 4300 lbs with 550 hp. I know it's apples and oranges, but I'd like to be able to keep up with some new rods and look old school. Not to mention I'm nuts on the look of my sexy TPI. So much I put one in my '54:
It doesn't take much power to make up for 100 lbs. Handling is a slightly different story, but consider that Vettes have always weighed more than Camaros/'Birds.
Perhaps this type of combo: Iron 383, aluminum Fast Burn heads, Vortec base, Hot Cam, good exhaust, proper tune. You can paint the heads if you like, or just let them fake being stock-appearing (like a Vette). The TPI will still be the biggest restriction, but it would be pretty darn close to 400 flywheel HP.
you'll have to fully upgrade that TPI system to some high flowing stuff to make any decent power out of it.. it will be out of power making ability by 4500 rpms or so on a 383. A big cam will peak by then and flatline power to 5000 or so.
But i dont see 400 crank hp being a problem. A bolt on L98 is around 310 crank hp or so. 33 more cubes with heads/cam/intake mods should easily cover that extra 90 hp
As stated before, I have a 58mm TB with the AZ. S&M runners that were port matched to my plenum. I will have the alum. heads, plenum and Edelbrock base sent to extrude honing to maximize flow. This should improve things some. What do you mean by a "bolt on L98"? My car came with 210hp from GM.
yeah what you have there will work great for 400hp on motor. extrude honed base with those runners is good for 330whp in the right car. thats about 420hp i'd say in an auto
bolt on L98 i mean full exhaust and full TPI bolt ons with a tune and possibly 1.6 rockers/underdrive pullies and air intake mods. basically all the "bolt" on parts without doing head work/cam work. I did this and made 254whp with a lean tune. I think i could have seen 260 with more fuel. thats around 310 hp crank i'd say
I plan on doing larger injectors/fuel pump/etc. I've already bought the Moates tuning soft/hardware for my laptop to burn custum PROMs. I talked to someone the other day who told me there's a company who makes a 400 crank that wieghs less that my current 350 crank that will last plenty of miles. I'm also swaping to a manual trans. I may do the pulleys. With 225,000 on the original motor, I will need to do a complete rebuild. I just need to finish my '54 1st.
I like the idea of a T5 over a T56 when considering weight. Make sure you do alot of tubular chassis work like myself with a k member and a arms, I would keep the stock transmission crossmember however, its lighter then the spohn. Keeping the stock iroc wheels? I bet you could save alot of weight with some nice thin 5 spokes. Remove those heavy *** bars in the doors and keep an eye out for an aluminum bumper(not bumper cover). that will save a good bit over the most common steel ones.
just food for thought Daniel.
Have you thought about a lexan hatch?
removing the sound deadener under the carpets?
I bet you can make 3000lbs without going aluminum block, saves you a big chunk of change. But thats up to you and aluminum would be awesome.
I'm not sure what you ment in your post up above, but don't get reverse rotation water pump mixed up with the same as reverse cooling lt1.
TraviZ, I plan on doing the tubular front end. I may end up with different wheels not sure yet. I'm really fond of my OEM '87 wheels "Remove those heavy *** bars in the doors and keep an eye out for an aluminum bumper(not bumper cover). that will save a good bit over the most common steel ones." Not sure what you mean about the heavy bars in the doors. I'm always looking for an alum. bumper though. I amy build one if I can't find one.
"Have you thought about a lexan hatch?" Yeah, but I'm more concerned with wieght up front. If it's over the rear, I think I can afford the wieght. I can't seem to get it to hook up anyways.
"I'm not sure what you ment in your post up above, but don't get reverse rotation water pump mixed up with the same as reverse cooling lt1"
Thanks for the education, I didn't know the difference. You'll have to explain it to me in April at the GTG.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by five7kid
I missed something. What aluminum heads?
I don't know the relative weights, but a T5 would be a big compromise for strength. Perhaps a Richmond 5-speed if you think a T56 is too heavy.
When I build the motor it will have alum. heads. I will probably go with an aftermaket 5 speed. I guess I said T-5 referring to the "5 speed" over the 6.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
a 400hp tpi will have more like 500lb ft of torque. That T5 wont last too long behind that under hard throttle launches and such
Noted, thanks!
Last edited by Daniel U; 02-19-2008 at 11:57 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
"I'm not sure what you ment in your post up above, but don't get reverse rotation water pump mixed up with the same as reverse cooling lt1"
Thanks for the education, I didn't know the difference. You'll have to explain it to me in April at the GTG.
No need to wait. "Reverse rotation" means the water pump turns in the opposite direction from the engine. When you run a serpentine belt so that the water pump pulley is on the back side of the belt, the pump will be going in the opposite direction, therefore "reverse rotation".
The LT1 engine reversed the flow of coolant through the engine so that the heads got the coolant first, then the cylinders. It provided more consistent combustion chamber temperature control, which is more critical to the combustion process control. I've heard different reasons why they only did it for the LTx series (Gen II), but apparently it didn't carry over to the LSx series (Gen III) of SBC engines.
You know, for less than the price of doing a 400hp NA engine you could do nitrous and be ahead. Then you wouldn't have to get hardly any new parts.
I'm not to familiar with the TPI stuff, but you have to put down some serious torque to make 400hp with that intake. My friend has a 400 sbc that does ~400hp and ~500ftlbs. Just throwing that out there since you seem pretty open to suggestions.
Also, I wouldn't remove the side crash bars from your doors. The driver side bar SAVED MY LIFE when a honda decided to tbone me on my drive home. I would only do so if I installed a cage with dual side impact bars.
As far as weight goes, I got my V6 car down to 2930 without too much trouble. Since the V8 weights 150lbs more than the V6, you could do the above mentioned mods to bring it down further. If i wanted to make my car lighter, I would switch it to T5, aluminum crash bumper, plexi rear hatch, glass hood (you can get them 13lbs), fiberglass front nose, and remove more excess metal from around the car (brackets, extra sheet metal, heat shields, thinner/shorter exhaust).
I had thought about shortening the exhaust. Even considered putting a "cat" back on it and dumping it there. I'm dead set on a stereo with 4 stock size speakers as well as PW/PL. I mainly started this thread to see how much wieght I'd save with alum. heads and or an alum. block. It looks like maybe about 100-150 depending on who you ask. I'll also be doing the Spohn tubular complete front end. I think that'll save about 40lbs. and give me some more room without be to noticeable. The 3" glass hood from Harwood saved me about 50-60 lbs. I recently bought a Hitachi 7.5 lb. starter that should save me some wieght as well. It will all add up.
I had thought about shortening the exhaust. Even considered putting a "cat" back on it and dumping it there. I'm dead set on a stereo with 4 stock size speakers as well as PW/PL. I mainly started this thread to see how much wieght I'd save with alum. heads and or an alum. block. It looks like maybe about 100-150 depending on who you ask. I'll also be doing the Spohn tubular complete front end. I think that'll save about 40lbs. and give me some more room without be to noticeable. The 3" glass hood from Harwood saved me about 50-60 lbs. I recently bought a Hitachi 7.5 lb. starter that should save me some wieght as well. It will all add up.
A few things, i read over this thread but wanted to comment on some issues.
From what I understand, you want to make a stout HP sleeper so when people on the street look at your car they will think it is stock or it atleast appears stock.
I am all for keeping the "creature comforts" on the interior. I built a 383 and kept my A.C. I have an Iron Block and Aluminum heads.
First Issue. The 3" Glass hood will be a dead giveaway to most people that it isnt stock. If you have TPI you wont have clearence problems, Why not convert to your favorite stock hood??
Second Issue. The tubular front end. If someone opened their hood and i saw all tubular kmember and control arms my first thought would be "what else is done to this"
Third Issue. Where did you get your information on saving 40lbs on the tubular front end? I have been doing research and noticed that it does not save much weight at all. If you can link me to some sources that would be GREAT.
A few things, i read over this thread but wanted to comment on some issues.
From what I understand, you want to make a stout HP sleeper so when people on the street look at your car they will think it is stock or it atleast appears stock.
Yes
I am all for keeping the "creature comforts" on the interior. I built a 383 and kept my A.C. I have an Iron Block and Aluminum heads.
First Issue. The 3" Glass hood will be a dead giveaway to most people that it isnt stock. If you have TPI you wont have clearence problems, Why not convert to your favorite stock hood??
What does a cowl hood do for real performance? It's not a hood scoop for forced induction. The car was overheating when I bought it. Now it's cooler with the fans both coming on sooner. I'll sacrifice on the hood if the inside doesn't reveal too much.
Second Issue. The tubular front end. If someone opened their hood and i saw all tubular kmember and control arms my first thought would be "what else is done to this"
Point taken
Third Issue. Where did you get your information on saving 40lbs on the tubular front end? I have been doing research and noticed that it does not save much weight at all. If you can link me to some sources that would be GREAT.
A buddy I met on here did the swap and told me 40lbs. Just taking his word for it.
91 camaro: 350 4 bolt,luinati cam 218 dur. 458 lift both sides 110lsa, trick flow 195cc heads 62 cc chambers 2.02, 1.6 valves, Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake 600cfm holley 1850 vac secondary hedman longtubes, built 700r4 , 3.73 posi, k&n 14x3 filter, weld draglite wheels (15x3.5 with mickey thompson's and 15x8 with cheap tires)
Oh this wont be a race car, just a toy with 400 BHP. I'm keeping the stereo and PW/PL 
I always thought that the Vettes were lighter? 
