Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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I got alot of the bottom end done last night. We installed:
Cam & Lifters
Edelbrock Fuel Pump
Gear Drive Set
We need to grind a bit off of the axle pieces on the gear drive sprockets that go between the Cam & Crank just like the directions say if your touching the block/timing cover. Once we do that the the rest of the Gear Drive, Timing Cover, & Water Pump can be put on.
The smallport heads are right with the 210cc(someone earlier quoted 200cc's, they are 210cc) FAstburn heads in power production.
Just some different options for ya since you are willing to go with the dedicated Vortec intake.
I got alot of the bottom end done last night. We installed:
Cam & Lifters
Edelbrock Fuel Pump
Gear Drive Set
We need to grind a bit off of the axle pieces on the gear drive sprockets that go between the Cam & Crank just like the directions say if your touching the block/timing cover. Once we do that the the rest of the Gear Drive, Timing Cover, & Water Pump can be put on.
Its been awhile since I updated so Ill do just that lol.
The rest of the Gear Drive is in, and the Timing Cover is painted and on. I have already installed the V8 Cluster too. It has the 140 MPH Speedo & 51,xxx Miles.
Car is now a roller! Took the whole drivetrain out last night, took no longer than 3 hours. Ill be selling off the Tranny, and scrapping pretty much the whole motor. Next on the list is undercoat the chassis, and prep the engine bay for paint after removing unwanted wiring.
Its getting there, little by little. I have no clue how Im going to sift through what wires I still need/wont need. My dad will have to help, but its one thing Im not in a hurry to do lol. Next on the list is get the chassis/underbody ready for chassis paint and then coat it.
Its getting there, little by little. I have no clue how Im going to sift through what wires I still need/wont need. My dad will have to help, but its one thing Im not in a hurry to do lol. Next on the list is get the chassis/underbody ready for chassis paint and then coat it.
Anybody recommend a certain product/brand to use?
I believe POR-15 is a popular one. Maybe look it up and see. I've heard of people using it to completely remove rust.
Looking good though! The key is to take your time and do it right the first time! Keep it up buddy!
I believe POR-15 is a popular one. Maybe look it up and see. I've heard of people using it to completely remove rust.
Looking good though! The key is to take your time and do it right the first time! Keep it up buddy!
Ill have to look into POR-15, Ive heard its good stuff but I see this "Rust Bullet" that is a site sponsorer that looks pretty decent at $145 /Gallon. Thats exactly what I want to do, take my time and get it done right or as close to it as I can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzor32
Did you ever take the bottom end apart and check to see if the bearings and crank are okay?
I never took the bottom end apart, but we did flip the motor over to look at the bottom end. Like I said, everything is looking like this motor was a recent rebuild to stock specifications before the truck I got it out of was junked. I plan on redoing the bottom end next Fall, or if something goes sooner than that.
i would highly suggest taking a rod cap off to look at the bearing before you go any further. I've took apart motors that looked like they just been rebuilt to find the bearings down to the copper and crank scored. You'll never know until you pull a cap off.
It would suck to trash it fast but it isn't cheap either so it is definitely his call I had $2k in just the short block then decided to go to a big block and sold the 406 short block for $400 just to get rid of it. for the underbody coating look into eastwood's stuff it is all quality and you can use this stuff http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...rID=466&KICKER
to keep the rust away for good. few bucks cheaper but I trust it on anything.
i would highly suggest taking a rod cap off to look at the bearing before you go any further. I've took apart motors that looked like they just been rebuilt to find the bearings down to the copper and crank scored. You'll never know until you pull a cap off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
Last thing you want is to have a bad set of bearings and spin one a few miles after the motor is installed and running.
how's the cam bearings? they look ok?
Cam bearings looked brand new honestly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstoltz
It would suck to trash it fast but it isn't cheap either so it is definitely his call I had $2k in just the short block then decided to go to a big block and sold the 406 short block for $400 just to get rid of it. for the underbody coating look into eastwood's stuff it is all quality and you can use this stuff http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...rID=466&KICKER
to keep the rust away for good. few bucks cheaper but I trust it on anything.
I completely understand guys. There isnt a whole lot of oil sitting in the pan, so Ill flip it over again and take off a cap as you said to do. What will be an indication my bottom end is no good, what should I look for exactly? Im just trying to save money where I can so I can get this thing back on the road hopefully by the end of April. If the bottom end will last me a season, or halfway through so I have time to save up to replace it, Im probably going to be ok with that.
If I dont hit my goal of 11s this summer and it runs 12s Ill honestly not be to dissapointed as this is my first build, and Ill have next winter to tweak/upgrade things.
But dont get me wrong, Ill continue to listen to every one of you who is willing to help me and give any advice that you give, I appreciate all the help guys.
As for the Coating, that stuff looks like it'd work. What kind of finish does it leave, colorwise?
take alook at the bearings on the rods and see if theyare worn down alot. If you see alot of copper, they are worn down. Any other heavy knicks or scratches in the bearing pad is not good either
i would look at a rod bearing as they will be the first to go usually
first you should choose heads... then cam... all the heads that you are looking at have pretty effecient intakes with so-so exhaust's... these heads need a split duration cam favoring the exhaust (ala xtreme energy or similar series) cam... you have chosen a single pattern cam and should now choose a cam with good i/e flow %. i think everyone is right by saying you should have torn the motor down... but you can run what ya brung, just don't be to disappointed if she goes... throw's a rod and takes out your pretty new heads :-(... not being pessimistic, lol...
seriously though... your power is all but decided with cylinder heads.. you have 400+ cubic inches to work with so a bigger straw is a good idea.. i would run a 215-220 cc head... or smaller cnc head.. like an afr or tfs head...
actually check this head out... in similar budget too... way more flow
the springs are too much, but just sell them on the board and get some from comp to "match" that cam... you wont have to put up any more than you'll get out of those roller springs..
you have 406 cubes to work with and with good heads i dont believe that a vict. jr. would give up anything to an rpm below 3000 rpm... this is "my opinion".. you have good amount of cubes to work with and will have very good manners with a single plane on a build up like this...
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"and should now choose a cam with good i/e flow %."
meant to say pick heads with good i/e flow ratio
Last edited by hereinmissoula; 12-19-2008 at 01:59 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
did you ever pop one of the rod bearing caps off an ttake a peek at one of those rod bearings?
No, but I plan on it. Ive been working on the engine bay gutting the wires I wont need and getting ready to paint it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereinmissoula
first you should choose heads... then cam... all the heads that you are looking at have pretty effecient intakes with so-so exhaust's... these heads need a split duration cam favoring the exhaust (ala xtreme energy or similar series) cam... you have chosen a single pattern cam and should now choose a cam with good i/e flow %. i think everyone is right by saying you should have torn the motor down... but you can run what ya brung, just don't be to disappointed if she goes... throw's a rod and takes out your pretty new heads :-(... not being pessimistic, lol...
seriously though... your power is all but decided with cylinder heads.. you have 400+ cubic inches to work with so a bigger straw is a good idea.. i would run a 215-220 cc head... or smaller cnc head.. like an afr or tfs head...
actually check this head out... in similar budget too... way more flow
the springs are too much, but just sell them on the board and get some from comp to "match" that cam... you wont have to put up any more than you'll get out of those roller springs..
you have 406 cubes to work with and with good heads i dont believe that a vict. jr. would give up anything to an rpm below 3000 rpm... this is "my opinion".. you have good amount of cubes to work with and will have very good manners with a single plane on a build up like this...
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"and should now choose a cam with good i/e flow %."
meant to say pick heads with good i/e flow ratio
Those heads look good, and they are about the price I was looking at GM Performance Fast Burn Heads for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereinmissoula
and you have a solid cam and a dual plane..... you could actually "use" the single.....
I already bought an Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake.
just a little something I noticed about those jegs heads, compare the description of the jegs 220cc runner to the canfield 220cc runner head, pay special attention to the part about the 406 SB. jut thought I'd share my findings
No, I just skimmed over the Specs because I was still in school. Is off-set rocker arms bad for what I want?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjon262
just a little something I noticed about those jegs heads, compare the description of the jegs 220cc runner to the canfield 220cc runner head, pay special attention to the part about the 406 SB. jut thought I'd share my findings
I still think you had a pretty good setup before with the GM Fastburns.
No worries man, I still haven't bought Heads. I will probably be buying them pretty soon actually. Ive been focused on cleaning up the engine bay of wires I wont need while I save the money for them.
Heres a pic of what the Engine Bay looks like so far:
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Im still working on the wiring along the Firewall and Drivers side, but the Passenger side is basically done. All I have left to paint is the right corner as you can see.
Last edited by Stippy17; 12-21-2008 at 11:32 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
there is more than one head listed there.... sorry i didn't specify..... and yeah the heads are probably knock offs... but so what... do some research on these, others have used with great results... these will far out perform a fastburn head, and they use standard valvetrain and rocker setup.... the exhaust port is much better on these heads, and will work better on your motor than fastburn...
and you said you have 1.6's right... so you should get your lift up past 525... check out the flow chart on the heads and compart to fastburns...
High-Flow 215 Heads
The 215cc intake runner head was designed from our very successful 220cc head, the 555-51433. We changed the intake runner entry and moved the pushrod to near stock location to allow for the use of non-offset rockers and realize the advantages of the 220cc head, but with a slight increase in low-end torque. Includes all the same high quality components used in our 220cc head.
215cc Intake runners
1.550'' Springs - .680'' Maximum lift
64cc CNC machined combustion chambers with angle plug design
10° locks, Chrome Moly Steel retainers and bronze guides
2.100'' Intake and 1.600'' exhaust stainless steel valves
7/16'' Rocker studs and 5/16'' guide plates included
I will look into these. They are about the same price so they're in my price range.
Can anyone testify to the performance of these heads?
Still looking for everyone else's opinions on these Heads. Im going to wait til after the Holidays, but I should be ready or almost ready to order Heads.
If those are Canfield knockoffs then use them. They wouldnt be a bad choice of head. 210-215cc runners are good stuff for a 400+ motor. Alot of guys have used canfields with some success. Brodix RaceRite or IK's in the 200cc wouldnt be a bad choice either and i think its same price range 1200 bucks +- 100
For another 200 you could have AFR's too so thats an option
Theres more options in my price range ($1000-1400) for Heads than I thought. Im liking those Canfield knockoffs. They are only $10 more a Head than the Fast Burns so thats not bad. Now will the Springs be ok with my Cam, or will I need Springs that have a smaller maximum lift?
they dont give specs on those springs unfortunately. But being a 1.55 spring for .680 roller cams, i would think it has abit too much pressure for a solid flat tappet cam. I dont know what optimum pressures are for solid flat tappet cams tho.
Where are you on the 400 sbc? A 509 400 is a great motor and you can make some awsome power easy for very little money.
I have 3 of the 400 blocks and had one in an 85 TA and drag raced.
Cam selection should also be based on transmition.
Id like to help but noticed the post was a few months ago.
sell the springs that are on the heads and swap them for flat tappet ones.. doubt you would be out a dollar....
Thats probably what Ill end up doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85gulstrandTA
Where are you on the 400 sbc? A 509 400 is a great motor and you can make some awsome power easy for very little money.
I have 3 of the 400 blocks and had one in an 85 TA and drag raced.
Cam selection should also be based on transmition.
Id like to help but noticed the post was a few months ago.
Where am I? Well lets see, here is what I have bought so far:
Moroso Race Oil Filter
Moroso 7 Qt Oil Pan, Pickup, & High Volume Pump
Fel-Pro Gasket Set
Proform Gear Drive Set
Proform Water Pump
Summit Chrome Oil Dipstick
Edelbrock High Volume Fuel Pump
Comp Cams Solid Cam & Lifter Set (.525/.525)
Custom 3 Inch Exhaust
750 cfm Speed Demon Carb Vaccuum Secondarries
Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake Manifold
PowerMaster 140 Amp Alternator
UMI Subrame Connectors
UMI Panhard Bar
UMI Lower Control Arms
UMI Torque Arm
UMI TH400 Crossmember
UMI WonderBar
140 MPH Cluster
2 1/2 Inch Cowl Induction Hood
I have kept the stock bottom end to save on money, for now, because the motor was recently rebuilt before I bought it. I still need to check the bearings like everyone has suggested, but I have been busy with the engine bay and underbody.
Next thing I want to buy is Aluminum Heads, and Im leaning towards the 215cc, 64cc Chambers, 2.1 Intake/1.5 Exhaust Aluminum Canfield Heads Jegs sells as their own for $640 assembled. Ill need to downgrade the springs for my cam, but Im being told these Heads will work well with my combo. Do you have any feedback from everything I just summed up?
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Oh and as far as transmission I planned on a TH400 w/ a Manual Valvebody, and a stall convertor between 3200-3600.
Last edited by Stippy17; 12-28-2008 at 03:29 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Wow sound like you will be doing pretty good.
The cam is a solid flat tappet on solid roller, I take it. is it the comp 294 ? with some where around 248 @ 50 on the intake? if i don't go with a solid roller, that will be my next cam. the guy I know will not use flat tappet cam any more due to the change in motor oils. but if you are aware and use GM's EOS or royal pupure engine breakin that will help.
The vickor jr intake will add alot of hp with cams that size, desk top dyno show as much as 50 hp difference more. the engine part need to be all inthe same power band to work well and the cam and 215cc heads are going to get choked out by a dual plain intake with 400 ci, I had both on mine so I've seen the differance. also with higher rpm the shorter rods will ware the block faster. The block is 30 years old and rare. you think it was freshened at some point. what due the rod and main bearing show about how it is doing along with the piston shirts. also the older blocks gain cooling if you enlarge the coolent hole between the exshaust ports like the later block added. your heads and gasket also need the holes to align. if you knon the 509 is the best one i assume your aware of the steam holes also need in the heads too.
tell mw which can you have for sure
Looks good stippy! Keep the pictures and questions coming.
Just a suggestion:
You're cam should be based off the rest of your setup, and since you changed heads, you may want to reselect. I couldn't help you much with the best choice, I would recommend getting the full spec sheet for your motor so you can call up some cam companies to see what they recommend.
Good luck. Looks like it's coming along well.
BTW, maybe I missed it, but are you going to eliminate your heater core and blower and smooth out that firewall? It always looks pretty clean. I'm on my girlfriends computer now, but I'll have to show you some pictures of mine when I get home. I just used a piece of sheet metal to cover it with rivets. I know that sounds shitty, but after you spray the whole engine bay black it doesn't look all that bad at all. It's by no means a trailer queen thought. A friend of mine went a step further and welded a plate in and did some bondo work. That looks really slick.
If you are not going to rebuild this engine I would recommend doing a mock assembly with the cylinder heads and preform a leakdown test. You ideally want only 5% and no more than 8%. An engine only uses 1/3 of the heat produced from combustion to make power, so you are losing 24% of your power and running on 3/4 of an engine. In that case rebuild the thing! And for god sakes check the bearings, block and crank before you start buying all these trick parts.
Wow sound like you will be doing pretty good.
The cam is a solid flat tappet on solid roller, I take it. is it the comp 294 ? with some where around 248 @ 50 on the intake? if i don't go with a solid roller, that will be my next cam. the guy I know will not use flat tappet cam any more due to the change in motor oils. but if you are aware and use GM's EOS or royal pupure engine breakin that will help.
The vickor jr intake will add alot of hp with cams that size, desk top dyno show as much as 50 hp difference more. the engine part need to be all inthe same power band to work well and the cam and 215cc heads are going to get choked out by a dual plain intake with 400 ci, I had both on mine so I've seen the differance. also with higher rpm the shorter rods will ware the block faster. The block is 30 years old and rare. you think it was freshened at some point. what due the rod and main bearing show about how it is doing along with the piston shirts. also the older blocks gain cooling if you enlarge the coolent hole between the exshaust ports like the later block added. your heads and gasket also need the holes to align. if you knon the 509 is the best one i assume your aware of the steam holes also need in the heads too.
tell mw which can you have for sure
You said a Victor Jr. Intake. I already bought a Performer RPM because I liked the RPM range alot more. Will I be ok with the Performer RPM?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codename 47
Looks good stippy! Keep the pictures and questions coming.
Just a suggestion:
You're cam should be based off the rest of your setup, and since you changed heads, you may want to reselect. I couldn't help you much with the best choice, I would recommend getting the full spec sheet for your motor so you can call up some cam companies to see what they recommend.
Good luck. Looks like it's coming along well.
BTW, maybe I missed it, but are you going to eliminate your heater core and blower and smooth out that firewall? It always looks pretty clean. I'm on my girlfriends computer now, but I'll have to show you some pictures of mine when I get home. I just used a piece of sheet metal to cover it with rivets. I know that sounds shitty, but after you spray the whole engine bay black it doesn't look all that bad at all. It's by no means a trailer queen thought. A friend of mine went a step further and welded a plate in and did some bondo work. That looks really slick.
The Cam is brand new, I bought it off a member here for $200 shipped. I chose the cam around the carb/intake/heads I had in mind so I should be good with it. Most likely Ill get a cam with more lift later on, but I should be good with this one for now.
Im deleting the heater core so I plan on welding a piece of sheet metal in its place. Im keeping the blower motor, because of stricter state inspection laws that are going to be happening in PA soon. Im going to find an old 82-93 S10 w/o AC and mod its blower motor to use for my car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayzor32
If you are not going to rebuild this engine I would recommend doing a mock assembly with the cylinder heads and preform a leakdown test. You ideally want only 5% and no more than 8%. An engine only uses 1/3 of the heat produced from combustion to make power, so you are losing 24% of your power and running on 3/4 of an engine. In that case rebuild the thing! And for god sakes check the bearings, block and crank before you start buying all these trick parts.
I will def. do a leakdown test. I might not be rebuilding the bottom end at this time, but Im going to make sure eveything is ok still. There is nothing wrong with the block, itll need a hone before I put heads on but I can do that. I am going to check the bearings and crank more closely, I just have been busy on the wiring in the engine bay.
The rpm intake is really good I have like 2 extra ones I don't need anymore. but somethins is out of sink here. we need the cam info to see. I think your getting a smaller cam than I thought at first. when looking at rpm range the 400 will have a different range and much more TQ (that lets you do things a little different that you standard sbc on the whole car) than either 350 or 305.
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did you look at the cam that came out of the motor should have id maks on the end?
Last edited by 85gulstrandTA; 12-28-2008 at 02:51 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
And I have the original cam in front of me, and on the end it has "S274" & "Made In Mexico" thats it.
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It looks like a S274 Camshaft is a stock replacement:
That's the cam I like I called it a 294 comp... because that is the grind #, if you look at my earlier post I called it a 294 with 248 @ 50......
Ok now we are cooking with gas...that cam wil go to 7,000 even in a 400, 7700 in a 350. A victor jr will be more compatiable with that set up and yes 40-50 more w/o much difference on the bottom end, that's what the stall converter is for. I would not use the short 400 rods with that cam, the rod have shorter dwell time and rock the piston to ware the bore out faster. So if that is the way you are going....please please pull the block apart have it hot tanked, honed(for the oil you'll be using) clearanced for the 5.7 rods, and claimer pistons, yopu need piston any way to get the compression for the cam to work. you talking about a true 500 hp and 500 tq motor...I would do it right to protect the rareness of the block and investment. Look at the crank and use it even it if gets turned 30 under who cares the radius will be bigger, dump trucks have cranks turned 30 under, my wifes car has one to. depending on you elivation 10 or 11/1 would be good with the 294 cam. I can run 11/1 with aluminum heads because of my elivation,as long as I change the timing to go to the beach. With that kind of power level you may want to rethink leaving the short block alone...I would no way get this far in to a block and take a chance damaging a block most chevy guy have never seen. with great power comes great responsibility. I almost cried when I thought I threw a rod in mine...so I know the feeling. A 509 400 sbc is like....spainish gold in the ocean, it there good luck getting one. also us an SFI flex plate too. If you are getting the block done LMK.
There's nothing really special about a Chevy 400 besides the fact that it is drastically weaker than an aftermarket 400 block. If you're going all out, go with an aftermarket setup.
I would recommend keeping it pump gas safe, nothing radical. I would say the block will hold up just fine if you're not spinning a lot of rpms. Get the heads and intake, buy a cam that matches them AND the application you want. I guess I don't even know if this thing is a street car or race car.
There's nothing really special about a Chevy 400 besides the fact that it is drastically weaker than an aftermarket 400 block. If you're going all out, go with an aftermarket setup.
I would recommend keeping it pump gas safe, nothing radical. I would say the block will hold up just fine if you're not spinning a lot of rpms. Get the heads and intake, buy a cam that matches them AND the application you want. I guess I don't even know if this thing is a street car or race car.
Just my 2cents
Im not looking for a high HP engine, so I have no need for an after market block. I want to it to be pump gas, nothing radical. Do you suggest the Victor Jr. too or am I fine with the Performer RPM for my application? My intentions for this car is to be a DAILY DRIVER that runs hopefully mid/high 11s this season. That being said, I need roughly about 400 WHP to do this which 1 HP per cubic inch is very doable on a stock block. Can I do this with my newer rotating assembly, or should I up the compression with new pistons etc?
That's the cam I like I called it a 294 comp... because that is the grind #, if you look at my earlier post I called it a 294 with 248 @ 50......
Ok now we are cooking with gas...that cam wil go to 7,000 even in a 400, 7700 in a 350. A victor jr will be more compatiable with that set up and yes 40-50 more w/o much difference on the bottom end, that's what the stall converter is for. I would not use the short 400 rods with that cam, the rod have shorter dwell time and rock the piston to ware the bore out faster. So if that is the way you are going....please please pull the block apart have it hot tanked, honed(for the oil you'll be using) clearanced for the 5.7 rods, and claimer pistons, yopu need piston any way to get the compression for the cam to work. you talking about a true 500 hp and 500 tq motor...I would do it right to protect the rareness of the block and investment. Look at the crank and use it even it if gets turned 30 under who cares the radius will be bigger, dump trucks have cranks turned 30 under, my wifes car has one to. depending on you elivation 10 or 11/1 would be good with the 294 cam. I can run 11/1 with aluminum heads because of my elivation,as long as I change the timing to go to the beach. With that kind of power level you may want to rethink leaving the short block alone...I would no way get this far in to a block and take a chance damaging a block most chevy guy have never seen. with great power comes great responsibility. I almost cried when I thought I threw a rod in mine...so I know the feeling. A 509 400 sbc is like....spainish gold in the ocean, it there good luck getting one. also us an SFI flex plate too. If you are getting the block done LMK.
Im not looking to rev that high lol, I was thinking 6-6500 would be my shift points. Mind you this will be a Daily Driver when the engine swap is done, and a strip car on the weekends. I have my goals set to run 11s this season, and probably 10s the season after but for now Id be happy with roughly 400 WHP. That being said, can you help me with everything I said? I dont need 500 HP just yet. Its my first build, and I have nothing but years and years to make the car more enjoyable. Keep in mind Im a senior in high school so my budget is less than the typical hot rodder, but I make do with what I can and work my butt off for what I do have.
I look forward to reading your response, I appreciate all the help from you guys.
not special??????? If you have ever seen a 400 with the 294 comp cam and just good heads even rpm heads with a jictor jr intake is something a chevy guy will want to be burried in. I've seen it, anyone else with 1 st hand experiance? the LS motors use the siamese bores..just like the 400 does.
Here's a Chevy High Performance article on the "Impersonator II". It features a 406 small block with dished pistons and 68cc AFR heads (180cc intake runner). The motor runs on 87 octane and creates 490hp and 529 ft/lbs of torque. They believe that the motor will put down 500 hp with a larger cam.
Hope that helps a bit. Note that this motor made the max hp at 5,600 rpm and max torque at 4,100 rpm. I believe those are desirable numbers for a street motor.
I personally have the "Impersonator" in my car (64cc vortec heads instead of 68cc AFRs [so I run premium pump gas]). I love the motor. It makes reliable and streetable power.
My dad will have to help, but its one thing Im not in a hurry to do lol. Next on the list is get the chassis/underbody ready for chassis paint and then coat it.
