Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!
I have a 92 firebird. It has the stock 3.1 v6. i want it to be an actual muscle car. i was thinkin of the lb9. i am trying to find the best choices for this car. my budget is around 2500. id like to keep to a engine used in a trans am. any year. what do i want to do with it? well i thought it might be fun to take it to the local drag track this summer for some fun n' games. What engine should i use? the budget includes w/e suspension/frame upgrades i need to make. i somewhat feel my v6 isnt a "muscle car". compared to the old birds. Any suggestions? And what tranny would be best with your choice? It is my daily drive.
Last edited by FireBirdSoldier; 03-23-2009 at 01:16 AM.
going from a 3.1 v6 to a small block anything is going to be a pain in the neck. be prepared to change out transmissions, engine mounts, might need heavier springs(heavier engine), wiring harness, ecm, fuel system. add that to the engine itself. im not saying it cant done, but it will not be cheap. your better off selling your car and buying one with a v8 car OR you could buy a v8 parts car. im not saying its not possible, only not cheap to go with all new parts.
Of course it isn't impossible. And, it's been done many, many times. It's also asked about a lot, so much that there is a sticky in the top section of this forum about it. In fact, in the title of the sticky, it asks you to read through the sticky before posting questions about V6 to V8 swaps.
Very common question. Read the sticky.
The only V8's that went into 3rd gens were small block Chevys. Many people have put in older Pontiac engines, so many in fact that there's a sticky on that, too. Really doubt you'll be able to do that for $2500. $7500, maybe.
For $2500, your best bet would be to find a V8 donor car. A 350 would be the better choice, but you might have to settle for a 305.
My former V6 Camaro sees a lot of drag strip time. It's not my primary race car, but the last race I won was in the Camaro. My son usually races it, but he had already left for college last fall. So, I drove it for him.
(FWIW, the definition of "muscle car" usually doesn't include our cars, regardless of what engine you have in it.)
Get a big block and convert to a solid chassis and BAM! you have a muscle car. Look into a big small block(400-455), trans (TKO,T56,M22), and alot of suspension and rear axle work. Or just buy a Z28 or RS with a V8 already and you will save alot of money.
You could probably swap in a 350 and a TH350, and still have money to spare. For half that, or closer to $1500, you could get a new 350 from GM. Motor mounts are cheap, so is a transmission crossmember, but they're also easy to make. You could get a TH350 for $50-200, depending on availability.
Just keep checking craigslist, and find a 350 long block to rebuild. Rebuild kit = >$300.
Don't forget an exhaust system, that's another $200-600. I just did dual 2.5" pipes for about $300, but I didn't have to pay someone to build it. That is, $300 for everything, including headers and gaskets.
You don't need new springs, but they might be desired, unless you want the front of your car sitting a little low.
It's not going to be cheaper to just buy another car that already has a v8, since you already have a car with a v6, unless you buy a cheap POS, or find a real good deal.
Come on, guys, $2500 won't do either a big block or a new engine. You aren't going to be putting a V8 in a V6 car for $2500 if you start with an engine that is over half the budget.
Put in a little reality, here.
You can find a decent V8 car and get by for $2500 if you sell the V6 car first.
Or just buy a Z28 or RS with a V8 already and you will save alot of money....
Not necessarily. I had to replace everything on my Z28 to handle the power that it will soon be making, everything. So it would in fact be an advantage for anyone to start off with a V6, as they are initially cheaper to purchase, not to mention easier on the wallet in regards to insurance, and thats a huge savings in the long run. Of course, stock for stock, there's simply no comparison though (although I wouldn't consider any stock third gen a "muscle" car, save for the Firehawk)....
the turbo trans am was a nasty car too(maybe a muscle car). a 1le, i think would be considered a muscle car, but they are very rare. i dont really understand why people use TH350 transmissions in these cars. 3 speed auto's are really outdated and will not deliver good gas mileage at all. i personally would use a 700R4 before i used a TH350. 700R4 will get much better gas mileage.
"Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high performance automobiles. At its most widely accepted the term refers to American 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s equipped with large, powerful V8s and sold at an affordable price for street use and drag racing, formally and informally.
"As such, they are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing.
"Building on the American phenomenon and developing simultaneously in their own markets, muscle cars also emerged in their own fashions in Australia, South Africa, the UK and elsewhere." {emphasis added}
F-bodies are "sports cars" (albeit with 4 seats). Regardless of what engine you put in them, they are not "muscle cars". Neither is my '57. A 60's or early 70's GTO is a "muscle car". A big block 60's or 70's Chevelle is a "muscle car". A 60's Road Runner is a "muscle car".
A turbo Trans Am is certainly powerful, but it is not a "muscle car", and certainly isn't going to be done for $2500.
Is there any chance at all of keeping this thread realistic?
Why go looking for another if he's willing to change this one? Granted like everyone else said it's going to be more work but if he can do most of it himself that will save a lot of money.
If not, then the easier route would to be to find one with a v8 already in it. To either be a donor car like others have said or be the car to be suped up a bit. Depends on how much work he can do himself.
__________________ --------------------------------86 Trans Am-------------------------------- Heart : Fast Burn 385, Edge Torque Converter, Hedman 68479 Headers Lungs : MagnaFlow 93441 Cat & MagnaFlow 15684 3" Cat Back Legs : KYB GR-2 shocks/struts, Wonderbar, Spohn 1 5/16" Front Sway Bar, Spohn A-Arms, Spohn Box Rear Lower Control Arms, Complete Moog bushings/links/joint replacement, Alston (from TDS) Subframe Connectors,
Thanks for the help. But Five7Kid the budget is realistic. there is a complete engine setup for a lb9 rebuilt from auto zone for 1200. (i know the manager). and a 700r4 if i remmeer correctly for around 800. i was just wondering if there was a better deal considering the engines. i know auto zones 305's are even more expensive then the 350's. kinda weird. and i guess your right bout the muscle car thing. just growin up i always looked at firebirds as muscle cars. guess i sit here corrected.
i have a fire bird w/ a 305 and 700r4 trans and dont go with the 700r4 trans or you will constantly be fixing parts and replacing sensors it is a pile of s***
if you can't sell the car and you can get a 350 cheaper than a 305. go with the 350 you will be happier in the long run. if you can go with manual trans or if your stuck on auto try 2004r better trans. will need different crossmember but definitly better than 700r4
also be carefull with auto zone crate engines ive had two of them in chevy trucks and a couple friends had a couple chevy auto zone engines and all them were blowing head gaskets. when heads were taken off they were welded to try and fix cracks or something. and were done shitty. seemed like they would just make it till the warranty was up.
You can do a junkyard build with a 350 block and some decent vortec heads with some stock replacement pistons. Over all you can build a decent little junk yard V8 for under $500 and if done right could give you a nice chunk of power.
But as for the 4 speed I mentioned earlier about the M-22 but only get one from a early 70's F body. It was called the rock crusher for a reason and one of the best 4 speeds out there.
You can do a junkyard build with a 350 block and some decent vortec heads with some stock replacement pistons. Over all you can build a decent little junk yard V8 for under $500 and if done right could give you a nice chunk of power.
But as for the 4 speed I mentioned earlier about the M-22 but only get one from a early 70's F body. It was called the rock crusher for a reason and one of the best 4 speeds out there.
He said his budget was $2500. If you could even find an M-22 it would probably cost at least half that if not more and you would still have to get a bell housing and clutch.Then you would have to do some fabrication to get it to work.You could do a complete swap for $2500 if you could find either a good donor car that has everything you need or if you are not worried about emissions you could look for a good used 350 and th350
First m-22 I found on craigslist, $700. Not even close to 'at least half'.
Apparently it's in excellent shape, too. http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/pts/1086221835.html
$1,800 left for the rest of the build... that's still possible, not to difficult.
I think it would be better to just go with an auto at first, and find a better tranny later.
First m-22 I found on craigslist, $700. Not even close to 'at least half'.
Apparently it's in excellent shape, too. http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/pts/1086221835.html
$1,800 left for the rest of the build... that's still possible, not to difficult.
I think it would be better to just go with an auto at first, and find a better tranny later.
Then I would buy it if I were you. They are not easy to find and generally cost a lot more than that.$700 is about what you would normally pay for an M-20 or M-21. Here is a link to another conversation about the price of M-22's. Apparently fresh ones were going for 1300-1600 back in 2003. Also there is someone on ebay selling reconditioned ones for about $2000
Thanks for the help. But Five7Kid the budget is realistic. there is a complete engine setup for a lb9 rebuilt from auto zone for 1200. (i know the manager). and a 700r4 if i remmeer correctly for around 800. i was just wondering if there was a better deal considering the engines. i know auto zones 305's are even more expensive then the 350's.
I wasn't saying $2500 was unrealistic, I was saying some of the suggestions people were making were unrealistic with your $2500 budget.
But, even your engine and transmission proposals are a little high. If your budget is $2500 for the whole deal, you've already spent $2000, and still don't have exhaust (big item right there), mounts, hoses, throttle cables, etc., etc., etc.
I agree, with $2,500, the most you could probably get away with spending on an engine and transmission is about $1,800.
With $2,500 for an engine and tranmission, I'd recommend looking mostly for used parts, such as carb, fuel pump, water pump, radiator, motor mounts, intake, exhaust system, etc.
Realistic:
Get a doner car with a 350 that runs, with a decent trans.
You can get Fbody cars like this for less than $1000 everyday.
Spend the rest on a tuneup, mods and chassis parts.
Look for used parts and employ when possible. (which is usually)
Why go to all the work and expense to buy crate motors and non-factory transmissions? Why buy new at all? There are plenty of options out there for a good performing street car that will run into the 14s on a budget.
$2500 might sound like a reasonable budget but the thing you have to realize is with an engine swap there is so much nickel and dime crap that will eat your budget, throw it up ,and swallow it again.
on another note not related to your engine swap, why do people always come into threads and ask completely random questions? happening alot lately
You can do a junkyard build with a 350 block and some decent vortec heads with some stock replacement pistons. Over all you can build a decent little junk yard V8 for under $500 and if done right could give you a nice chunk of power.
Are you KIDDING me?build a fresh 350 with vortec heads,and do it RIGHT,for under $500?Under $500 wouldn't buy and build the heads correctly!!
You MIGHT buy all the parts for $500,but you damn sure ain't going to build it for that.
Last edited by five7kid; 03-26-2009 at 12:21 AM.
Reason: Bypassing swear filter
Are you F-ing KIDDING me?build a fresh 350 with vortec heads,and do it RIGHT,for under $500?Under $500 wouldn't buy and build the heads correctly!!
You MIGHT buy all the parts for $500,but you damn sure ain't going to build it for that.
Ummmm... If you can buy all the parts for $500, why couldn't you build it for that?
Straight pipes, and without cats, will be way cheaper, but make sure they don't end under the vehicle, you won't be able to stand the noise.
I don't think it would be to loud even with just straight pipes, as long as they go out the back, I drove around with open headers for 2 weeks not to long ago, and never got pulled over for noise in that time, but that was with an LG4, which isn't too loud.
BTW, there still are emissions laws, in all 50 states, federal law, but, like where I am, there may be no inspections.
Ummmm... If you can buy all the parts for $500, why couldn't you build it for that?
Ever heard of machine work genious?When I say MIGHT,I'm not even including an intake,let alone distributor,carb,etc.You show me a 350 that's been built for $500 in the last 10 years,CORRECTLY,let alone with vortec heads,and I'll eat my words.Pretty confident I won't be eating any,though.
if the v6 is healthy BOOST IT, turbo'd cars are a blast, and plus with NO BOOST = NO GO haha
BTW i have a spare HO 305 at home that i took out of my 89 bird, it had the tuned port on it, Ill give it to you if you want it fo free it just needs roller lifters and intake since i reused it on mine, but then i sold the intake. lol.
It was pretty powerful in my car and it ran GREAT, i'm also selling my built 700r4 on ebay for around ~300bux. I'm in Virgnia
__________________ 7psi run-- 11.89 @ 112 1.64 60ft
My 89 trans am and turbo build here
new setup 383ci pt88<- it lives
Last edited by noboostnogo; 03-24-2009 at 11:38 PM.
i was building muscle cars before there were muscle cars. no electronic anything. no computer anything.
you want a true muscle car you have to go back to see what they were.
400 plus ci. dual quads on a ram manifold, 6 dueces on an edelbrock. 426 hemi's. even 383's we considered small. that is a muscle car begining. today we just play with computers, and im helpless and learning all over.
you want to make your camaro a muscle car, forget the 305, or 350, or 383, you need a 427 or bigger to start. that is real muscle. then you can start adding all the nice little electronic toys we use today.
ask 57kid - he knows his stuff, even the modern stuff. none of those 283 bored and stroked out to 317 with manual fi for him. he is one of the best on the board.
Well i know its not a muscle car. that was proven. Right now im just tryin to decide to save up for twin turbos. see. i fell in love with teh stats of the firehawks of 92'. 0-60 in under 5 seconds was my goal. but i dont think a 305 can meet that. but again thats why im on here readin your opinions and experience.
Ever heard of machine work genious?When I say MIGHT,I'm not even including an intake,let alone distributor,carb,etc.You show me a 350 that's been built for $500 in the last 10 years,CORRECTLY,let alone with vortec heads,and I'll eat my words.Pretty confident I won't be eating any,though.
When you try and build a motor for $500, you don't buy a new intake, carb, and distributor, or oil pump, fuel pump, water pump, etc. You need to re-use some parts.
The 327 is the same externally as anyother SBC, depending on what year it is the crank could be a small journal style. They like to rev more than a 350. Very sweet little mill. See the sticky above for more info.
When you try and build a motor for $500, you don't buy a new intake, carb, and distributor, or oil pump, fuel pump, water pump, etc. You need to re-use some parts.
And you've proven my point,I said CORRECTLY.You'd be very hard pressed to find any 350 block that only needs honed nowadays.Just because there is little ridge or no scoring,doesn't mean the bores are within tolerance.If your going to build an engine with vortec heads,you ARE going to be buying a different intake,weather you want to or not.Let alone the fact that vortec heads in stock form are good to .470 lift I believe?Oh,we aren't going to mess with those,just bolt worn out heads on a "fresh" shortblock.
Bore and hone for $200,ok.I guess they press the pistons on the rods for free?No sense resizing the rods,just slap em' on and go.Sounds like a recipe for an engine that runs poorly,and for not a lot of miles.You can have your $500 "rebuild".I think I'll continue to do mine properly.
That's not exactly true... I wouldn't waste my time with Vortec heads to begin with, but there is absolutely no reason you can't find a solid 350, I'd just as soon have a 327 myself... more RPMs
if you want to do it really low buck, i'd get a 350 punched over .30 and slap on a set of 305 heads... that is the lowest buck way to get a stout engine for almost nothing.
if you check ebay, I have found a shift kit for my trans, (i'm gonna upgrade shift springs as well) a hydrolic cam, everything hydrolic rollers can rebuild my engine with name brand parts in my dingy garage for under a grand/ lucky me I allready had a (MILD YES....) set of orginal 375hp double hump heads.... and for you guys worried about a cam lift btw for the clearence of a big cam they now have Comp Cam's beehive spring (PN 26915) and Retainer (PN787) that takes you from .475 in lift to .560in lift..... handy huh?
__________________ 84 Camaro Z-28, th-350 trans, posi, 4 bolt, not a stock motor, trac bars, edelbrock top to bottom, headers, 3in cowl, spare parts 84 so with a much milder 355 and 700-r4 (WANTED 2 buy or trade- taco bell dinner, wheels, high rise intake, and chevy 12 bolt, or 8.5in, 270-213-0199)
I'm not trying to say you're going to be able to build the best engine for $500, I just mean it's possible to build a decent engine with a very limited budget, not necessarily a performance engine. It isn't too hard to hone the cylinders yourself, or press the pistons on the rods yourself. I can do that stuff at school. If I couldn't, I know two places I can get the pistons pressed to the rods for free, and I have a friend that can hone the cylinders for me. Hell, I could even deck the block myself, but I realize that isn't possible for most people, but it usually isn't necessary either.
You also don't need a different intake for vortec heads, it's cheaper to re-drill the heads to accept a standard SBC intake. That sure is an easy solution.
Why would you think about buying an aftermarket cam on a $500 budget? That's at least 1/4 of your budget.
Anyways, if he has a $2,500, there's no reason to plan any further for a $500 build, at least not in this thread.
[quote=I'd just as soon have a 327 myself... more RPMs
FIRST statement a greehorn usually makes
if you want to do it really low buck, i'd get a 350 punched over .30 and slap on a set of 305 heads... that is the lowest buck way to get a stout engine for almost nothing.
But you won't mess with vortec heads.OK,your making a lot of nonsense now.
if you check ebay, I have found a shift kit for my trans, (i'm gonna upgrade shift springs as well) a hydrolic cam, everything hydrolic rollers can rebuild my engine with name brand parts in my dingy garage for under a grand/ lucky me I allready had a (MILD YES....) set of orginal 375hp double hump heads
Yet again,you wouldn't mess with vortecs?PULEASE.Late 1950's tchnology has NOTHING on vortecs.
and for you guys worried about a cam lift btw for the clearence of a big cam they now have Comp Cam's beehive spring (PN 26915) and Retainer (PN787) that takes you from .475 in lift to .560in lift..... handy huh?[/QUOTE]
This is news to me....not sure your wrong,but I'm not convinced either.
I agree, vortec heads are far superior to any earlier heads. But, fuelie heads or camel hump heads, will be cheaper, and they are still very good, but less efficient.
Another reason people like pre-'68 sbc's, is because of the smaller journals, it should make less friction, not just because of the shorter strokes they had, allowing more RPM.
Thanks for the help everyone! Found everything i need. The bird shall fly...
If you are going to buy that 327/th350 combo don't forget you will need v8 motor mounts. You would also need away to connect your torque arm.You could do that several ways.Either fab a bracket your self or you could buy a bracket from B&M or Hurst for about $90. There is also a kit out there that allows you to switch tail shafts from the 700r4 to the th350. You could also buy an aftermarket torque arm that doesn't connect to the tranny,but they run $250/$300.It would also be a good idea to find a v8 radiator and fan shroud.
Come on, guys, $2500 won't do either a big block or a new engine. You aren't going to be putting a V8 in a V6 car for $2500 if you start with an engine that is over half the budget.
Put in a little reality, here.
You can find a decent V8 car and get by for $2500 if you sell the V6 car first.
84 Camaro Z-28, th-350 trans, posi, 4 bolt, not a stock motor, trac bars, edelbrock top to bottom, headers, 3in cowl, spare parts 84 so with a much milder 355 and 700-r4 (WANTED 2 buy or trade- taco bell dinner, wheels, high rise intake, and chevy 12 bolt, or 8.5in, 270-213-0199) 
