Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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I'm looking to upgrade my 305. I am looking for a good 700+ HP Engine if anyone has any suggestions. If not if someone could direct me as to where to buy a LS9. Thanks
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Crate engines can be found almost anywhere online but youll need a big block, a power adder or just a very radical small block to achieve that kind of power.
I assume you are aware there's almost not a single part of your current drive train that will take that kind of power and you most likely dont have anywhere near the tires/suspension to even come close to hooking that kind of power, not to mention what it would do to your car if you did hook anywhere near that much power.
Yeah im looking at upgrading to a T56 transmission and i know ill have to rebuild the back end. I'm just looking for something high end and i do want a small block. The engine i was looking at previously was a 383 Stroker which is rated at 510HP as seen here http://www.proformanceunlimited.com/...3_450drop.html
If you have any suggestions how to bring it over 600 I can definetly live with that. I want it to be able to stay toe to toe with a ZR1.
If you have the money, there are crate engines that will do the job. World sells a 454 cubic inch small block that makes 600HP on 91 octane.
If you just want 700 HP and no less, you will need to look into spraying the small block or building/having built a small block with a supercharger or turbo.
Go big or go home... if you want 700hp, get a 496+ci big block, or build a forced induction LSx engine. Its going to be much more expensive to do it with a small block, and it will not be as reliable or long-lived as the BBC/LSx.
The only problem i see with a long block is i was told that you cant hook up a manual transmission to it. The guy might be retarded but i have never dealt with a long block to know any better. If it cant what type of 6 speed tranmission would you hook to it. Money is really no object, I already have the car in my head i want i just need to figure out the parts.
Long block simply refers to how complete of an engine you are buying. A short block is typically a block and rotating assembly with no heads or pan. A long block is typically a complete engine, pan to heads and may or may not be turn key.
That motown longblock would bolt right up to an lt1 t56.
edit: are you meaning to say big block and not long block?
As mentioned above, it's not easy or cheap to do it with a small block without a power adder. The cost of a 454 SBC can be a lot more than a 454 BBC. A big engine needs to breath and that SBC needs some expensive heads to do it while some worked over factory BBC can easily do it.
Although I've never had my engine or car on a dyno, the estimated HP of my 540, based on race weight and 1/4 mile MPH, puts my engine around 800 corrected HP. Since I race at altitude, I'm only getting around 700 HP.
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and i know ill have to rebuild the back end.
Rebuild? More like replace. You're going to need to upgrade to a 9", 12 bolt or Dana 60. You'll need to upgrade the suspension to handle the power. You'll need a good set of tires to get the power to the ground. You'll need at least SFC and a minimum of a 6 point roll bar wouldn't hurt to keep the body straight.
It's not just about having a high HP engine. The entire car needs to handle that kind of power. It's far easier and cheaper to make a car go fast by reducing weight.
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87 IROC-Z
All engine, no power adders! Bests: 9.348@144.71
Hey guys thans for all the info, keep it coming, i knew a bit about cars but apparently i was wrong. I do want to upgrade and give it a nice 700HP engine however it is....knowing what i need in the back end is a huge help as well. and i did mean big block sorry for the confusion there
A t56 can be built to survive a 700 HP big block with drag race suspension and slicks. And it's easy to attach one to a big block. but that's just so heavy, you should be going LSX. And if you have the money for the LS9, why not just get a '95 Corvette instead of a third gen? You don't need to spend that kind of money to get to 600 rwhp, there are several guys doing it with a T76 in a junkyard 5.3L truck LSX engine. It would be good to upgrade to forged pistons, and better to start with the LS9 block, which sells for $1400 new. At this point, you can break into the 9s at the 1/4 mile, so you will need a full roll cage in the car, and you're going to need some upgraded brakes.
572 or even a 632 is a tall deck engine. Although they will work, there's a lot more involved when installing a tall deck block.
540 is about the biggest short deck block but even then, it can be increased in size. Boring it out, it's common to make a 555 or 565. Take the 540's 4.500 bore out to 4.600 and change the stroke from 4.25 to 4.5 and you can make a 598 short deck engine.
When you start to get into these huge engines, conventional heads are very limited. You need to start using heads like Big Chiefs or any other spread port head.
While inexperienced compared to most of you I have always prefered taking smaller cubic inch motors, stroking with power adders such as twin turbo. I am talking as small as the 305 even!
keep in mind the third gen needs to have its unibody chassis reinforced before adding serious power. if you were to drop in the monster that i linked to above the car would probably literally rip violently in half.
While inexperienced compared to most of you I have always prefered taking smaller cubic inch motors, stroking with power adders such as twin turbo. I am talking as small as the 305 even!
keep in mind the third gen needs to have its unibody chassis reinforced before adding serious power. if you were to drop in the monster that i linked to above the car would probably literally rip violently in half.
this particular engine you linked was in a hotrod article about 5-6 months ago (have the mag, just dont wanna go get it) and probably cost more than a zr1 too build. ive seen a few turbo'd 383s crack 650. i have another HR mag that sports a 427 twin turbo'd beast that boasts 1400 hp, in a third gen no less! thats what id go for, 427 sbc single turbo, lets say a 66mm? thatd prolly crack 700 if built good and a nice set of heads and tuning. or just like he said, grab the ls9 for 21k, if you got the cash. guy put one in his 69 and out of the crate the ls9 made over 700 through a 6 speed, and further tuned it for almost 800. go figure?
While inexperienced compared to most of you I have always prefered taking smaller cubic inch motors, stroking with power adders such as twin turbo. I am talking as small as the 305 even!
keep in mind the third gen needs to have its unibody chassis reinforced before adding serious power. if you were to drop in the monster that i linked to above the car would probably literally rip violently in half.
Those mountain motor blocks are huge. They use a 5" bore spacing and very tall decks. Although nothing is impossible, putting one in a third gen would be very difficult. They're designed for tube chassis cars and dragsters.
It's easy to make HP with cubic inches. The majority of all engines should be able to make 1 hp per CID on pump gas. A 350 can easily make 350 HP. A 540 can easily make 540 HP with nothing more than a bigger displacement. Pushing any engine to 1.5 hp per CID takes a lot more work. 2.0 hp per CID and you're looking at a full race engine.
Using a power adder makes it easier to get more HP out of a smaller engine. Boost pressure is a way to understand how big an engine is. For every 15 psi of boost pressure, you've effectively doubled the size of an engine. A 350 has become a 700 CID engine. Bigger engine makes more power.
How does anyone drive a 700+ hp car on the street on a daily basis? I mean one would need a new set of tires between every stoplight if they did anything but let the idle pull them.
A well tuned fuel injected turbo car usually is very streetable..... until you push the go pedal and hurt yourself. If money is no object it could definately be done. http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild..._up/index.html That combination will most likely make plenty of power for you. But you are gonna need to completely redesign the driveline. You'd need a transmission like a tranzilla or son of tranzilla, a full drag rear end and cage like mentioned above.
The more displacement you have the more reliable it is. If you're going for murder and money is no object I agree with the advice to go with a big block or an LSX. A power adder on a good built 454+ in BBC will definately get you there. A traditional small block chevy's heads just don't breath as good as LS heads so you are limited in the rpm range and displacement area's.
There is also that 500 cu in LS superdeck crate engine too. I imagine that is pretty powerful with a power adder.
If you don't know much about high horsepower engine builds, and want it to actually be reliable enough to be a daily driver, you'll need to go with a fuel injected twin turbo Iron block 383, or 388 if you feel like pushing the limits of the block, you'll just need to get some pretty high end sleeves.
I'm sure most people know, when you push aluminum blocks too hard, they warp, then crack if cooled down too fast.
As far as I'm concerned, a twin turbo FI Iron block setup would be the only way to make this practical, due to being able to change the boost levels.
How does anyone drive a 700+ hp car on the street on a daily basis? I mean one would need a new set of tires between every stoplight if they did anything but let the idle pull them.
People drive high powered cars on the road every day, it's not as insane or impractical as some people would imagine.
If that were so, people would not own Porsches, Vipers, Corvettes, Ferraris, Bugatti Veyrons, SSC Ultimate Aero TT's, the last two listed are both over 1,000 horses right from the showroom floor.
Especially with turbo engines, most of them will generally make less power than a naturally aspirated engine, until the turbo spools, that's when it gets wild. Other than that, high horsepower cars are very streetable.
eternal z, good point. lots of cars come from the factory with close to or more than 700 hp. you can drive any car on the street really, as long as you drive it right. 700 hp is a big number though, and it will take alot of mods. i would say, for the sake of longevity, go LS based. they are better all around pretty much. if you want huge availability of parts, go SBC, and if you want gobs of power with less effort, go BBC.
a single turbo 454 BBC would be a killer, if you built the internals and slapped on some AFR 335s. add in a DFI setup in sequential mode, and im pretty sure you could crack 700 easy.
thats why i went BBC, lots of power and not alot of money spent, plus easy to find parts.
__________________ 89 rs, 468 bbc, oval port "781" heads, 850 speed demon, edelbrock air gap, patriot headers, custom header back exhaust with 2 in, 1 out flowmaster to a single borla with flat side exit exhaust. t-56 6 speed, centerforce flywheel, pressure plate and clutch, custom 4 inch aluminum driveshaft, 9 inch rear.
People drive high powered cars on the road every day, it's not as insane or impractical as some people would imagine.
If that were so, people would not own Porsches, Vipers, Corvettes, Ferraris, Bugatti Veyrons, SSC Ultimate Aero TT's, the last two listed are both over 1,000 horses right from the showroom floor.
Not exactly blue collar cars. More like blue blood.
I have to admit I shake my head every time I see a thread like that. It's really tempting to just lock them as soon as they show up, because:
1) The poster has never been around a 700 HP engine, let alone drive a car with that kind of power.
2) The poster doesn't have any idea what it takes to handle that power, both to get it to the ground and allow the car to survive the punishment.
You want a big power small block? This is a start http://www.ultrastreet.net/engines/472_bigdawg.asp, and that isn't even 700 HP. My rule of thumb is plan on spending as much handling the power as making it. Got $27500 to spend on this project?
You can poke around his site for other ideas. I've never heard anything bad about his products. Just remember, whatever you spend on the power, double it for the project.
Don't forget to have a chat with your auto insurance agent, too.
It's bad enough when someone just wants a 500HP street car. Most people will be very happy to have 350-400 HP on the street when you consider most factory engines barely get 200 hp to the wheels. That's more than enough power to have fun and it makes a much more reliable car.
shoot, my highest hopes and dreams are putting a lti in my maro now, no power adders besides intake and exhaust, because i want a reliable car, with a little kick, and only a small hole in my wallet
I love big blocks, but there is an alternative that will still get you to 700hp:
Build a 396/406/427 SBC to about 500hp and then put a 200hp (dual stage?) to get you to the 700hp number.
You do realize that a 700hp motor in a 3500lb car with the right drivetrain and traction can get you into the high 9's/low 10 second range - streetable but way overkill unless you plan on racing 1000cc+ sportbikes on your daily commute.
I have to ask a question, now please... no one get upset, I love my third gen. But for the money it's going to take to make a thirdgen 700 hp, why wouldn't you get somthing a little more classic, although you'll never recover your investment, the car will be worth somthing in the end. Maybe a 1st gen camaro, or even somthing like a old stingray, shoot even a super bee or mustang mach one. Now who am I to judge, maybe you really like the line of an F-body over everything else, and if so, I apologize, but I doubt you do, and for the money you would have to pay you might as well get exactly what you want.
I have to ask a question, now please... no one get upset, I love my third gen. But for the money it's going to take to make a thirdgen 700 hp, why wouldn't you get somthing a little more classic, although you'll never recover your investment, the car will be worth somthing in the end. Maybe a 1st gen camaro, or even somthing like a old stingray, shoot even a super bee or mustang mach one. Now who am I to judge, maybe you really like the line of an F-body over everything else, and if so, I apologize, but I doubt you do, and for the money you would have to pay you might as well get exactly what you want.
Most people who are on these forums are here because these are the cars we want to have as projects. Sure, everybody probably has a couple of cars above a third gen on their list but it doesnt mean they will be unhappy with their third gen. Personally the only cars I would consider over a third gen for the purpose I want my third gen to serve are either higher end new cars (no thank you $600+ monthly payments) or a '67-68 firebird drop top which would cost either 10x as much for a clean example or 10x as much to make a poor example clean.
Most people on these forums with a project have that project because they are satisfied with the car and realistic about their expectations and goals. Most of us arent here because these are the only cars someone else would buy for us and now were stuck trying to make them fast (points at saturn tuners lol).
If we all made 6 digits or more, there would still be some people on these boards doing this but in a world where we dont all have infinite cash for a project car, third gens are great options that most of us never question.
Your statement also seems to suggest that making a classic car fast is cheaper than doing so to a third gen and even if you ignore the initial investment, that is not a very informed train of thought to hold.
Most people who are on these forums are here because these are the cars we want to have as projects. Sure, everybody probably has a couple of cars above a third gen on their list but it doesnt mean they will be unhappy with their third gen. Personally the only cars I would consider over a third gen for the purpose I want my third gen to serve are either higher end new cars (no thank you $600+ monthly payments) or a '67-68 firebird drop top which would cost either 10x as much for a clean example or 10x as much to make a poor example clean.
Most people on these forums with a project have that project because they are satisfied with the car and realistic about their expectations and goals. Most of us arent here because these are the only cars someone else would buy for us and now were stuck trying to make them fast (points at saturn tuners lol).
If we all made 6 digits or more, there would still be some people on these boards doing this but in a world where we dont all have infinite cash for a project car, third gens are great options that most of us never question.
Your statement also seems to suggest that making a classic car fast is cheaper than doing so to a third gen and even if you ignore the initial investment, that is not a very informed train of thought to hold.
Look, there's no need to say that my train of thought is uninformed. I'm not going to take shots at you (like I said no one get cranky) Although what you said was polite it is obvious there is a bit of an undertone. So here is all I have to say, there is nothing wrong with a third gen, really they're great, If I didn't think so woudl I own one???? All I am saying is that maybe the gentlemen who started this thread would rather have a stock mustang mach 1, or a stock but factory upgraded corvette. That's all. I'm not trying to say he's wrong, but maybe he out to look at all his options before he drops the kind of money he'll have to, to get the thing up to 700+hp.
Why do you think he'd be asking on here if he wanted a Mach 1 or a Corvette? Neither will be any cheaper to run at 700+hp and some of them will require massive suspension upgrades and will never be as comfortable as a Thirdgen.
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1982 Trans Am | 1984 Trans Am | 1986 IROC-Z | 1988 Trans Am | 1989 Firebird x 2 | 1990 Firebird x 2 | 1991 Trans Am GTA | 2000 Trans Am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reaper
it kills performance similar to visualizing a picture of Rosey O'Donnell nude.
I didn't say a 700hp corvette or mach one did I????? I said a factory upgraded corvette or mach one, sheesh. I am done here, what meant to be a harmless comment, that was not at all a shot at the f-body, has (as I tried to prevent) became something I didn't want it to be. I just thought I'd try to help the creator of this thread before he made a huge commitment.
I didn't say a 700hp corvette or mach one did I????? I said a factory upgraded corvette or mach one, sheesh. I am done here, what meant to be a harmless comment, that was not at all a shot at the f-body, has (as I tried to prevent) became something I didn't want it to be. I just thought I'd try to help the creator of this thread before he made a huge commitment.
when you get bored with the f-body, you could always take the engine and trans out and put it in something else, part out the rest or sell the roller
For about 8K-35K you could go the SB2.2 route. Or do a World 400 what ever and SB2.2 Top End, Thats what I am thinking about right now, World 406 SB2.2 Top End kit by M&M off of Racing Junk, I am looking at about 4k for the short block and 4.5k for the top end, ALL NEW STUFF. Hope this helps you out.
Just to clear things up gentleman right now it is a daily driver but i am in the market for a new camaro and would love to make my 3rd gen a project car. Every guy dreams of having a hot rod and mine is to have a 700+HP 3rd gen. I am enjoying all the suggestions that everyone is giving and i ask that you please keep them coming. As for the never been around a 700+hp before the closest i have been is a ZR1. I understand that the backend will need to be replaced and the chassis will need to be reinforced. Again thank you gentlemen for your input and please keep it coming.
It seems like you have the basics of it down, you'll be fine, despite the big number of 700 horsepower, it is very easily achieved with the huge after market and amount of technology available today.
Your absolute best bet for this engine to be reliable is a twin turbo setup, twins because of the characteristics of them, quick spools for zooming around town, and you don't have to beat up your engine and rev to 7,000 RPM like you would with a bigger single turbo setup.
I checked out Turbonetics, and their GT-K line would be perfect for you. They have the GT-K 350, which supposedly can handle 350 horsepower, but I'm assuming at a higher boost level, they also have the GT-K 450 which can supposedly support 450 horsepower. They both cost $1,658.33.
Since this is a daily driver, I would basically overshoot my goal and go with the turbocharger with the next biggest turbine housing, and turbine wheel, so you can physically move more air into the engine at lower pressures. The GT-K 500 is $2,000.
This type of project is relatively expensive, but you don't need VERY deep pockets, just a bunch of small things you'll need that add up quick. Like you mentioned, best thing you can do is just wait for more suggestions from the typical motorheads on these message boards.
Some more of the senior members that know a heck of a lot more than me and have done turbo builds should start chiming in as the replies and views on this thread grows.
Good luck with this whole project if you decided to build a 700 horse street car, it'd be pretty neat, especially in a Third Gen!
I'm looking to upgrade my 305. I am looking for a good 700+ HP Engine if anyone has any suggestions. If not if someone could direct me as to where to buy a LS9. Thanks
Here you go. Dynoed 704HP and 653 ft lbs of torque. All new 468 roller motor. $6000.00. Will sell the 400 transmission with it for another $2000.00.
This is a link to where you can get a 708 lsx type motor that makes about 850 hp and 900 lbft of torque at about 5500 rpm.Only catch is that it costs about $50,000
ok in reply to the thread makers comment about where to buy an LS9, GMPP (General Motors Performance Parts) is where you need to look, under crate motors. the cost is close too 25k bux, and that doesnt come with accessories (they are extra) but it does come with a clutch, flywheel and pressure plate (the same ones they use in the zr1 so you know itll handle it.) cheers
__________________ 89 rs, 468 bbc, oval port "781" heads, 850 speed demon, edelbrock air gap, patriot headers, custom header back exhaust with 2 in, 1 out flowmaster to a single borla with flat side exit exhaust. t-56 6 speed, centerforce flywheel, pressure plate and clutch, custom 4 inch aluminum driveshaft, 9 inch rear.
700 Horsepower, and your use to driving a stock 305, hope the engine comes in a casket so the packaging will at least be useful!!!!
Tell that to all of the rich Arabs that go and buy Ferrari Enzos and Bugatti Veyrons when they barely know how to handle a bicycle.
Speaking of the Bugatti, it takes a whole 50 BHP to cruise at highway speeds, other cars are similar. Do you think he's really going to cruise around at 6,000 RPM's all day, making peak power?
That's one thing that REALLY gets under my skin. It's his dream, it's what he wants, a high powered streetable car, it's not up to you to judge his driving skills, or to imply he will kill himself with it. For all you know, he could be an F1 driver, you never know who is behind the other side of the internet connection.
If he succeeds with his goal, congratulate him. Implying he will kill himself is completely out of line, unnecessary, and just completely rude. If he wrecks the car, or god forbid, gets injured, that's when it's time for "I told you so.".
I guess no one has any deceny in this world anymore, or a nice attitude for that matter.
you might be better of building an engine, you could try building a big block chevy and throwing on a supercharger and a lot of go fast parts
from what im reading, the OP probaly doesnt have the ability ot build an engine. Maybe im wrong, who knows.
my 2 cents, use a turbo setup, they will have the best street manners and any of the combos mentioned and probably last longer.
On the cheap, the ideal setup would be a bigblock. However keep in mind that whatever route you think you want to go in, you still have to spend a shitload of money just on the chassis and suspension, trans and drivetrain, fuel system, exhaust ect, then the engine. There would be a lot of custom work and fab involved.
from what im reading, the OP probaly doesnt have the ability ot build an engine. Maybe im wrong, who knows.
my 2 cents, use a turbo setup, they will have the best street manners and any of the combos mentioned and probably last longer.
On the cheap, the ideal setup would be a bigblock. However keep in mind that whatever route you think you want to go in, you still have to spend a shitload of money just on the chassis and suspension, trans and drivetrain, fuel system, exhaust ect, then the engine. There would be a lot of custom work and fab involved.
yeah, if you are going to have that kind of power you have to reinforce the chassis, and have the drivetrain and suspension set up to not only get that kind of power to the ground but to be able to control it.
Tell that to all of the rich Arabs that go and buy Ferrari Enzos and Bugatti Veyrons when they barely know how to handle a bicycle.
Speaking of the Bugatti, it takes a whole 50 BHP to cruise at highway speeds, other cars are similar. Do you think he's really going to cruise around at 6,000 RPM's all day, making peak power?
That's one thing that REALLY gets under my skin. It's his dream, it's what he wants, a high powered streetable car, it's not up to you to judge his driving skills, or to imply he will kill himself with it. For all you know, he could be an F1 driver, you never know who is behind the other side of the internet connection.
If he succeeds with his goal, congratulate him. Implying he will kill himself is completely out of line, unnecessary, and just completely rude. If he wrecks the car, or god forbid, gets injured, that's when it's time for "I told you so.".
I guess no one has any deceny in this world anymore, or a nice attitude for that matter.
So you want another dead kid or wait and say i told you so, and he punches the gas hes gonna crap his pants going grom 150hp to 700 lol, twist the car, no drivetrain, no cage, no subframe yeah i wanna be president....lets be realistic....
agreed, you have to be realistic. so many people are talking about upgrading to huge HP, but rarely do you see a post about whats the safest setup to be able to control huge HP.
people need to put more consideration into suspension, tires, chassis reinforcement and drivetrain.
i think its just funny they want these huge numbers on the dyno, but dont wanna pay to play...big numbers arent cheap...well reliable big numbers arent lol...whens he got 43 inches of rubber on the ground then we'll talk lol....and he didnt know what a long block was....doubt he will be saving any money on building it himself.
If money is no object it could definately be done. 
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