Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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I was wondering if anyone has done a 302 chevy swap into a third gen? I know that these small engines can make a lot of power up top. Pulling to 7500 rpm with easy. Would it be a fun car to drive on the street also? What Gears (4.10s, 4.11s) What kind of stall converter would be needed for a auto, or would changing it over to a 4 speed be better?
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It would be slow on the street. Street driving is usually well below 5000 rpm. The amount of power you make with a 350 at low rpm will be greater than what you can do with a 302 at the same rpm.
A 302 will be better than a 305 but not as good as a 350+. Torque is what you feel on the street. The longer stroke of the 350 will make more low end torque for street driving than a 302 will.
The GM 302 was designed for CanAm racing. Road course racing with a 305 CID limit.
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But the 302 came with 290hp, and 290 pounds of torque. It was underrated from what i've read. Those numbers are much higher than alot of 350s. With a proper build, with stiff rear gears, and a lockup converter 3500 stall, wouldn't it be a fun car to drive? When i cruise in my 305 on sundays it rarely sees third gear, it runs at 2500 in second at 50k with 3.23s so, with 4.10s shouldn't the car be above 3000 and isn't that where a 302 comes alive and pulls through to 7300 to 7800 depending on your Valve terrian. I don't know of anyone putting a 302 in a third gen thought it be cool.
It would be slow on the street. Street driving is usually well below 5000 rpm. The amount of power you make with a 350 at low rpm will be greater than what you can do with a 302 at the same rpm.
A 302 will be better than a 305 but not as good as a 350+. Torque is what you feel on the street. The longer stroke of the 350 will make more low end torque for street driving than a 302 will.
The GM 302 was designed for CanAm racing. Road course racing with a 305 CID limit.
Agreed.
We drive Tq, not hp - we don't have autobahns or anywhere else to use top end hp.
302 is a great motor - identical in dimension (bore and stroke) as the Ford offering; we all know how well they make power. Then again if you want to go fast, a 350, 400, or even larger is the best way to maximize power under the curve. 15% more displacement equals 15% more TQ. 406 > 383 > 350 > 327> 302.
But the 302 came with 290hp, and 290 pounds of torque. It was underrated from what i've read. Those numbers are much higher than alot of 350s.
That was also the pre-'72 rating method, when the factory used gross flywheel HP, headers, no accessories, velocity stacks on the carb, different intake to produce HP and torque ratings, etc., etc., etc. The '72-up net flywheel rating method drops that down significantly. And, neither reflects "real world" driving manners.
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Originally Posted by GI Maro
With a proper build, with stiff rear gears, and a lockup converter 3500 stall, wouldn't it be a fun car to drive?
It would be a "purpose-built" vehicle - okay on the track, a hassle to drive on the street.
Want high-winding horse power, good-manners, good-fuel economy in a small block Chevy? Get an LS1. Guess what - it's a small-bore, long-stroke design.
Seems to me a 302 would just be an expensive way to get less torque and some horsepower you won't use on the street. Torque is what makes street driving fun, either save some money and get more torque buildling a 350 or spend it up on a 383 or 400.
Also, just because a 302 made 290 pounds of peak torque doesn't mean it's providing the same torque, a 350 making 290 pounds at (x) rpm will generally have a much broader and more flat torque curve than a 302 making the same peak with the 350 doing it on a much milder build.
The 302 has a 4" bore and a 3" stroke came with a single plane intake, it was designed to make high end horse power at 5k-7k rpms. Designed specifically for racing where you are constantly in the throttle and in its power band. The 302 also came with solid lifter valve train to be able to rev that kind of rpm. Requiring specific adjustment and interim checks to ensure valve lash is proper. Unlike the hydraulic lifters that you set and don't really have to worry about.
The 305 has a 3.73 bore and 3.48" stroke, designed to make power lower in the powerband to keep engine rpm's lower consuming less fuel. Better driveability at lower RPM's where the car is 95% of the time.
Longer stroke = more torque and lower end power.
The 302 will bolt in and it will drive, probably be a unique swap also. I'd bet it will probably feel pretty gutless under 3500-4k rpms. You would definitely have to put a taller rear gear like a 4.11 for it to be tolerable on the street, or you would have to do 120mph everywhere to be in the power band. You will have poor fuel economy, due to having increased RPM's also. I would definitely want a manual behind a 302, I'd be willing to bet that with an auto a high stall, like 4k would be needed to get the car to move out with any kind of urgency.
I would say that practicality should be a consideration, too. Just how often on the street are you going to be able to zing that 302 in the 3500 to 7500 rpm range where it actually makes power??? Also, with a five speed and a heavy car, it might work on the street, but if your car is an automatci you would need a high stall converter in the 3000 to 3500 range---and they build a lot of heat...which further translates to trannies going south before they should!!!
Torque IMO is far more desireable in a street engine, something that builds 400 ft. lbs. of torque and 5200 rpm is a lot better street engine then one that makes 400 horsepower at 7500 rpm!!!!!
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You all make very great points, basically i want something with power, that isn't a 350, 383, or ls1. Thoose are the three main motors that are dumped into a third gen, and make lots of power. But i would like to be a little different and have something different. So from what everyone has been saying build a motor that is gunna make alot of torque so a 400 small block would probelley be my best bet, then 327, then a 302 correct? I am not concerned at All about gas milegage what so ever as long as it can hit 140 to 150mph and accerlate fast i'm okay with it.
You all make very great points, basically i want something with power, that isn't a 350, 383, or ls1. Thoose are the three main motors that are dumped into a third gen, and make lots of power. But i would like to be a little different and have something different. So from what everyone has been saying build a motor that is gunna make alot of torque so a 400 small block would probelley be my best bet, then 327, then a 302 correct? I am not concerned at All about gas milegage what so ever as long as it can hit 140 to 150mph and accerlate fast i'm okay with it.
Because i was told by a auto shop that i would need stiffer front supsension to handle the extra weight of the big block and i want to keep my 700r4 tranny. And i don't want to cut my frame.
you think a 300hp 302 that screams to 7500 rpm would be handled by a 700r4? aluminum heads and intake bring the weight down by about 100 pounds.. which is the same as your iron headed 305.. Where do you have to cut the frame?
you have to grind and cut the frame to get the one header in and to get the hei in you need to dent the firewall, if i had a 302 a 4 or 6 speed would go it after i blew up my second 700r4
ever body is kinda talking me out of a 302 even tho with 4.10s i believe in the city the car would be right in the power band because 2nd with my 3.23s is at 2600ish. but i'm young and want to learn. As for the comment of gm dyno at 290/290 being lower because of the gross rating gm pulled the stock motors to only 5,400 when they could be pulled to 6,500 and make power so they probelly did make 290. Why is the 302 ford motor powerful and fun on the street?
you have to grind and cut the frame to get the one header in and to get the hei in you need to dent the firewall, if i had a 302 a 4 or 6 speed would go it after i blew up my second 700r4
You need to do more research my friend. So... you ARE planning to get another tranny... which means it doesn't matter if you bolt the 700r4 to a 454 and blow it up.... Why not use the patriot method, cut the flange, maybe weld some extra pipe to it to create the downpipe around the frame or beside the tranny...
i don't want to cut and weld when a small block isn't going to give me that problem and i just called the shop that will be assiting me in my build and even with aluminum heads its front end is going to need supension help.
basically i want something with power, that isn't a 350, 383, or ls1. Thoose are the three main motors that are dumped into a third gen, and make lots of power.
There's a reason those engines are commonly used. They do make a lot of power with little effort and cost the same amount to build as a smaller engine. You get more bang for the buck.
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i was told by a auto shop that i would need stiffer front supsension to handle the extra weight of the big block
A BBC is about 150 pounds heavier than a similar SBC. Install aluminum heads and intake and it gets very close to the weight of a factory iron head SBC. Both my aluminum BBC heads weigh less than one iron BBC head. The nice thing about a BBC is that it makes a lot of torque at low RPMs where you'll feel it the most. I ran V6 front spring in my car for a number of years with no problems.
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you have to grind and cut the frame to get the one header in and to get the hei in you need to dent the firewall
Frame modification for the header may or may not be required. It it does need to be modified, it's not as hard as it sounds. A large cap HEI distributor and a BBC fit in front of the firewall just like a SBC. The position of the tranny bellhousing doesn't change so the position of the distributor doesn't change.
Don't get all hung up on a 700R4. It's not the best choice for a transmission when using an engine with a lot of power. A TH400 is a better choice. If you feel you need an OD, a 200-4R is a better choice and if you're willing to do a lot of modifications plus the cost to do the swap, a 4L80E is a beefy tranny that will be hard to hurt. It just adds a whole lot more weight.
i don't want to cut and weld when a small block isn't going to give me that problem and i just called the shop that will be assiting me in my build and even with aluminum heads its front end is going to need supension help.
"I trust this site more than your shop. I am done. "
okay thats your own opinion i've seen this shop build countless hi-performance cars and they know their stuff. Motion Performance probelley the most recognizable shop for performance in manitoba
As for the 700r4 i do realise it isn't the greatest when it comes to holding up under power i thought i read somewhere that they'll hold up too about 500hp. The big block idea is cool, but id rather use a small block. Can 302 chevy run as good as the ford 302. If i was to change tranny s it be to a stick. Tx
I think it would be cool, but if you're only interested in being different you could always build a strong 383 and tell everyone it's a 302 and nobody would be the wiser.
Unless they see an externally balanced harmonic dampener. I can tell people that my 540 is a 396 or a 427 and they wouldn't know the difference because my engine is internally balanced.
If you want to use the performance shop's advice then you shouldn't be asking questions on TGO and just pay them to build what they think is best. Members here are very knowledgeable as to what works and what doesn't and why. We'll usually give the best advice and steer you clear of making bad decisions.
Stop comparing a Ford engine to a Chev. Each brand of engine has it's advantages and disadvantages. If you want to be different, just drop a Ford engine into your Camaro.
You're not going to be able to easily build a 302 anyway unless you buy a bunch of new aftermarket parts. The Chev 302 used the 4" bore 010 block that's been used in the 302, 327 and 350 engines. The 302 used the 327 engine at the time but used the shorter stroke of the 283. The difference was the crank. It used the 327's large rod journals instead of the 283's smaller journals. It's unlikely you'll find such a short stroke, large journal crank to make a 302. Since you'll need to buy many new parts, why limit yourself to a 302 when the same price can build a 350 or 383 and maybe a 406 or 434.
Because everyone has a 350 or 383 in there third gen. its boring, we all know that you can make good fun horsepower in those motors, every single person you talk to that has a 305, its ohh i'm gunna eventually put a 350, or 383 in it. i thought this site was meant to help people with their ideas. And reach their goals, i've watched 302 s on youtube and they haul so instead of telling me put a 350 in it which i don't want to hear does anyone know of a 302 build that will make it a fun car to drive, all this car is going to see is sunday cruise nights and the strip.
ps. if i wanted a 350 i would have put one in three years ago when i brought the car.
thx
If you really want to build a 302, the most budget friendly way would be to use a stock crank, rods, and block, and build a small journal 302. You can still inexpensively buy 327 blocks, and 283 cranks aren't very hard to find, most of which are forged. Maybe just buy a 283 and a 327, and use parts from both.
Fun on the street, and unique? Put a big block in. Enough torque to pull your house out of the ground, sounds awesome, and its pretty rare to see a street-driven 3rdgen with a BBC in it. The cost of the swap is really not that bad either.. the bulk of the cost is just the headers and exhaust. I'm in the midst of collecting the parts to put a BBC in my Camaro right now. It will be just a nice driveable street car - maybe 400hp or so, with a set of 781 large-oval heads. The added weight isnt that bad, the stock V8 suspension will be fine. Subframe connectors would be a good idea though, to handle the extra torque.
i thought this site was meant to help people with their ideas. And reach their goals,
We are helping you make the right decisions but you're not listening. With the thousands of TGO members, you'll get better advice than what the automotive shop wants you to do. Do you need to upgrade the front suspension with a BBC? No. Is it good to upgrade the front suspension? Yes.
Quite a few people come here with ideas on what they would like to do but have no clue as to what to do, what's involved or what the final result will be. You can put any engine/transmission/differential into any vehicle just to be different but that doesn't mean it's the right choice. It's sort of a catch 22 issue. If you have to ask about doing something different then you're not really sure if it should be done or not. If you're not willing to listen to the advice given, the question shouldn't have been asked and you just need to go ahead and do whatever you plan in the first place.
The final choice is up to you. Once you spend the money to drop in a Chev 302 into your third gen, you have to live with it, good or bad. Plenty of 350 or 383's will out perform you for the same price and they don't really care that you decided to build a smaller engine instead.
You all make very great points, basically i want something with power, that isn't a 350, 383, or ls1. Thoose are the three main motors that are dumped into a third gen, and make lots of power. But i would like to be a little different and have something different. So from what everyone has been saying build a motor that is gunna make alot of torque so a 400 small block would probelley be my best bet, then 327, then a 302 correct? I am not concerned at All about gas milegage what so ever as long as it can hit 140 to 150mph and accerlate fast i'm okay with it.
Doesn't make much sense to me to try and run 140 mph with 4.10 gears?
Translation: "I want to spend more money to be slower."
My applicable experiences:
1) 305 on steroids in the Camaro. Ran it from 2001 to 2005. It ran well, sounded good. In that time, I had exactly one person ask if it was a 350. Oh, he was a Ford guy. (When I did put the 350 in, it picked up 1.4 seconds and 5 mph in the 1/4 mile.)
2) The 396 in the '57. With the hood open at the track, the two most common responses, when they see it's a big block: a) "Oh, it is a big block. I thought it ran pretty good for a small block." and b) "It's just a 396? Why aren't you running something bigger?"
I can tell people that my 540 is a 396 or a 427 and they wouldn't know the difference because my engine is internally balanced.
