Swapped a 2.8 for a 5.7 not turning over - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

cdoyle · 10-11-2009, 10:01 PM

Hi,

Finally I was able to get that 2.8l out of my 84, and I swapped it with a 5.7 from a 92Z28.

Since I wanted to make this swap as easy as possible, I bought a donor car and took everything out of it, and put it in my 84.

So I took the ECM, Dash, all the wiring, tank, steering column, and the engine and put it in my car.

So today, I finally got to the point of hooking of the battery. Got in the car, dash all works, lights work, heater fan works etc. Turn the key to on and the dash comes comes on, tach sets itself at 0 and so far so good. I can also hear the fans under the hood running, just like they did when they were in the donor car.

but when I turn the key, nothing happens the starter doesn't do anything.

Everything worked when they were in the other car, so it has to be just something I forgot to hook up, but not sure. I don't think it's VATS since I used the dash, and the steering column out of the donor too. So that all matches.

Here is something else odd I noticed when I was thinking about the starter problem. As soon as you hook the battery up, I can hear the fuel pump doing something in there, and then on the top of the engine I hear a hissing sucking type sound, sounds like it's coming from around the area of the injectors. Even with the key off it makes this noise..

anyone have any ideas on any of these issues?

I was really hoping since I took everything from one, and put in another it would work

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Project: 85 2.8 bird · 10-12-2009, 01:08 AM

any security/ses lights flashing? when I dod the 305 carb swap have any vats/ecm issues. I also got the dash/engine harness, guage cluster, & engine/tranny from donor car (86 iirc, as I was able to reuse the speedo cable)

cdoyle · 10-12-2009, 08:24 AM

No the security light doesn't flash or come on when I turn the key.
The SES light comes on when I first turn the key on, but I think that's normal isn't it.

cdoyle · 10-12-2009, 09:53 AM

One thing I've been wondering, the way it acts reminds of how it would act if you tried to start it in gear. The one thing I didn't change out was the auto shifter.

The connectors on the shifter were the same shape, the 92 fit right into my 84 shifter, but I'm wondering if maybe the pins were changed around over the years, and the safety switch pin is in a different location now?

anyone have a wiring diagram for the shifter harness for both years?

Reshurected Z · 10-13-2009, 09:43 AM

First off what is your 5.7 donor engine out of? And second just for the enlightenment of it "Turn your key on and run a jumper down to the {S} terminal on your starter and see what happens when the engine turns over?

camarokracker · 10-13-2009, 09:58 AM

I had the same problem when i did my last engine swap then realized after much agravation the i had put the small wire to the starter on the wrong terminal. on most gm starters there are 2 terminals that the small wire will fit on and one is just a bypass.. thats the one i accidentaly put mine on. swapped it to the other and VIOLA!!! it worked.

cdoyle · 10-13-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarokracker

I had the same problem when i did my last engine swap then realized after much agravation the i had put the small wire to the starter on the wrong terminal. on most gm starters there are 2 terminals that the small wire will fit on and one is just a bypass.. thats the one i accidentaly put mine on. swapped it to the other and VIOLA!!! it worked.

Thanks I'll take a look at that the next time I'm over at the car, sure hope that's it!!

Reshurected Z: The donor engine is out of a 92 Z

So I'm hoping it turns over after checking the starter wire, so if it does. The next thing I'm wondering about is why does the fuel pump seem to be making noise as soon as I hook the battery up? That's not normal is it?

Reshurected Z · 10-13-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdoyle

Thanks I'll take a look at that the next time I'm over at the car, sure hope that's it!!

Reshurected Z: The donor engine is out of a 92 Z

So I'm hoping it turns over after checking the starter wire, so if it does. The next thing I'm wondering about is why does the fuel pump seem to be making noise as soon as I hook the battery up? That's not normal is it?

You can go ahead and check your wiring but you need to run a "test" wire from the Battery to the {S} terminal on the starter to turn the engine over, and as for your fuel pump you can stick a gauge on the fuel system to see if its your "pump prime" or a constant "pump-On" condition? Also your fuel pump relay is up by the brake booster you can possibly look into the issue at that point

cdoyle · 10-16-2009, 06:29 PM

Did some testing yesterday, and found that at the starter when I turn the key I'm not getting any power on the purple wire.

So that explains why it's not turning over, at first I didn't think it was the VATS But it might be.

Looking under the dash yesterday I found a plug that comes out of the column that wasn't hooked up, but I can't remember where it suppose to go.. If it ever did go anywhere when it was in the other car...

This isn't my picture, but this is the wire I'm talking about

Should this plug into something?

Also, when I turn the key from OFF to RUN and the dash comes to life the security light never comes on. Shouldn't it come on for a test? I thought it did, when this was all installed in the other car, but I might be mistaken.

Another question, looking at the wiring diagrams I see there is a starter relay. Where is it in the car? When I turn the key, I don't hear any relay click (I think I would hear it).

montesscamaro · 10-16-2009, 11:54 PM

mine did the same thing go over all your grounds see if that wire on the starter is wrong and also see if the starter wire that excites the solenoid is getting juice when the key is turned to the start position. other than that it should at least turn over

cdoyle · 10-17-2009, 08:59 PM

Ugh,
After a whole day of trying to figure what is going wrong, still no luck getting it to turn over.

When I checked the purple wire to the starter the other day, I thought it wasn't getting 12V. But checked it today, and it is.

The main wire from the battery to the starter has 12v also.

I did fix the security light on the dash, I had left the plug on the steering column unplugged. So plugged that back in, and now when I turn the key to run the security light comes on for a second or two and goes out. Just like it did when it was in the donor car.

So now I'm stumped, why is this thing not turning over?
I think VATS is out, since I'm getting the 12v all the way to the starter.

I can hear what I think is the starter relay click in the car too, when I turn the key.

For a test I tried the jumper from the battery to the starter terminal, it still doesn't turn over.

Could it be bad starter all of a sudden? I really don't think that would be it, it started just fine in the other car, and we didn't even remove the starter when we pulled the engine. We left that all intact, so I guess there is a chance it could be bad, but for it to not even click is odd.

I checked my grounds with a DMM, and they seem to be OK. The starter grounds itself out though the block right?

I'm wondering if whatever is wrong is any way related to fuel pump always running as soon as you hook the battery up.

Anyone have any other troubleshooting ideas to try?

berlin305 · 10-17-2009, 09:06 PM

Well sounds like something not right. Okay when you are hooking up the power to the starter are you putting on on the selenoid? and which side will determine also if it will turn or not. s and b i think. the s is what you need to hook power to i think taht would be on the closest to block but can't think since been a while since i changed my starter.

cdoyle · 10-17-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berlin305

Well sounds like something not right. Okay when you are hooking up the power to the starter are you putting on on the selenoid? and which side will determine also if it will turn or not. s and b i think. the s is what you need to hook power to i think taht would be on the closest to block but can't think since been a while since i changed my starter.

hmm, I think there are only 2 terminals on the starter (from what I could tell) The larger one that the wires from the battery go, and the smaller one that the purple wire from the firewall hooked too.

I was putting it on the smaller terminal, is there a third one?
If so, would anyone have a pic of the terminals?

berlin305 · 10-17-2009, 09:30 PM

Okay to save all the trouble :P. Arch the starter by jumping a wire from the battery connection on the starter to the purple connection if it does not turn over or click. then. it will be the starter or the seloniod gone. Mine had one big connection for the starter to the batter and 2 small terminals one is b and the other is s. but to get to to work just jump like i said if it doesn't turn then yes starter is out. IF you can't see it run your finger where the purple wire is connected to the seloniod. there should be another one floating around there parallel to it.

cdoyle · 10-17-2009, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berlin305

Okay to save all the trouble :P. Arch the starter by jumping a wire from the battery connection on the starter to the purple connection if it does not turn over or click. then. it will be the starter or the seloniod gone. Mine had one big connection for the starter to the batter and 2 small terminals one is b and the other is s. but to get to to work just jump like i said if it doesn't turn then yes starter is out. IF you can't see it run your finger where the purple wire is connected to the seloniod. there should be another one floating around there parallel to it.

Ya we tried that too

It's just so odd that it went out like that without even a warning, usually whenever I've had starters go out, they click or turn over slow or something.

Could there be any chance of a grounding problem that I didn't notice?

berlin305 · 10-17-2009, 09:43 PM

its pretty direct when you put power like that to the starter. If that isn't doing it then its your starter i had mine go out and do the same thing just go out. On another note if there was a ground you won't know until you have a new starter. Let me find you a picture of the 2 terminals on the seloniod. for you brb.

berlin305 · 10-17-2009, 09:55 PM

Okay now if that purple wire is connected to the ground. then it won't starter. And to know that you got that connected. Then it should start. If it didn't starter went out. Now If you didn't connect it right it would spark badly.

Now thinking of it do you have a good battery? and if your terminals are clean and tightened. That would make the starter not do nothing to.

cdoyle · 10-17-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berlin305

Okay now if that purple wire is connected to the ground. then it won't starter. And to know that you got that connected. Then it should start. If it didn't starter went out. Now If you didn't connect it right it would spark badly.

Now thinking of it do you have a good battery? and if your terminals are clean and tightened. That would make the starter not do nothing to.

Thanks!

Yep battery is good, and it looks like I have it connected right.
Darn my luck, that would have been so easy to replace when the engine was sitting on the floor. but nooooo, I have to swap it now that it's installed.

I sure hope that's it, and it fires up after I swap it.

Any ideas to why the fuel pump would be going all the time? looking at the wiring diagrams, I think there is a fuel pump relay. Where is it?

berlin305 · 10-17-2009, 10:26 PM

I think that its on the passenger side near the fire wall that i dont' know. will have to do some research on that.

Reshurected Z · 10-19-2009, 10:52 AM

Glad to hear you figured out your starting problem! I'm not sure why your fuel pump is running all the time but if you dig into the 2-3 relays at the driver side next to the brake booster one is your fuel pump relay it should have a little red wire with a unhooked connector on it...also I believe in the dash on the passenger side there is a fuel enable relay of sorts? Just a FYI it won't hurt to run the pump all the time with key as long as it don't run in (acc. mode) key backwards!

cdoyle · 10-19-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reshurected Z

Glad to hear you figured out your starting problem! I'm not sure why your fuel pump is running all the time but if you dig into the 2-3 relays at the driver side next to the brake booster one is your fuel pump relay it should have a little red wire with a unhooked connector on it...also I believe in the dash on the passenger side there is a fuel enable relay of sorts? Just a FYI it won't hurt to run the pump all the time with key as long as it don't run in (acc. mode) key backwards!

Well I haven't replaced the starter yet, but I'm hoping after I do it turns over.

but the fuel pump is odd, it starts up as soon as I hook the battery up. So it's on all the time regardless of the key. Doesn't make sense.

Reshurected Z · 10-19-2009, 11:47 AM

It may sound hillbilly but you might be able to have someone hold your key to the start position, moderately hit the starter and it might free it up...if it turns over it may work for a day or a year? And your fuel pump does have me baffled I'm not sure what could be the difference with the 2.8-5.7 fuel pump wiring...I do know they had a few bulkhead changes through the 3rd Gen. lines, I would compare the 2.8 and 5.7 power pick up for the relay/ or I'd fuse and hard wire it to the Ing.? I will look into it a bit for you and see if it could be something simple.

cdoyle · 10-19-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reshurected Z

It may sound hillbilly but you might be able to have someone hold your key to the start position, moderately hit the starter and it might free it up...if it turns over it may work for a day or a year? And your fuel pump does have me baffled I'm not sure what could be the difference with the 2.8-5.7 fuel pump wiring...I do know they had a few bulkhead changes through the 3rd Gen. lines, I would compare the 2.8 and 5.7 power pick up for the relay/ or I'd fuse and hard wire it to the Ing.? I will look into it a bit for you and see if it could be something simple.

What's strange about the starter thing, is when you turn the key it doesn't do anything at all. I thought if it's a stuck starter or dead spot, the voltage would go down on the gauge because it's trying to do something. It doesn't move at all.

What's really odd about the fuel pump is, I replaced everything from the donor car into my 84. All the 84 wiring is now gone, I replaced the dash, engine harness, all the wiring to the back etc. Nothing 84 wise is left in the car. It's jut weird that it's doing that, if I had left a ground un hooked, it seems it wouldn't run at all, not run all the time.

86White_T/A305 · 10-19-2009, 02:47 PM

You might just be looking at replacing the starter solenoid itself.If you got a good battery,the starter wire shows full 12v when the key is turned to start that tells you quite a few things.It tells me the starter relay is working,vats may not still be ok at this point,or that the block itself is poorly grounded.The starter itself is simple minded to make it crank.It only needs 3 wires and you can jump it.Good ground,12v battery,and 12v start.If you jump it even with the key out of the car it should still crank.If it doesnt click above your head..which is a hefty sound..then the solenoid could be gone.Get yourself a hammer or anything to give it a couple love taps as someone is holding the key in the start position and it may just give you one last crank.Its pretty common for this as I have done 7 starters on my own car lol.But also make sure the block has good clean ground connections,I have 3 major ground points with 2 gauge wire.1 on both sides of the block to the frame and 1 from the frame to the battery.I also upgraded all my ecm ground points to a single 8 gauge wire straight to the battery.

Nothing else at that point will prevent the starter from doing its job.Now once you get to that point,if it cranks but doest run..Id look closely at that vats connector your pointing out in the above pic.This will prevent the car from running but it will still crank.Your 2 options from there are to either find out where the other side of the plug is and connect it.Or bypass the vats system by putting in a resistor that matches the resistance of the key from the donor car,or delete vats from the chip in the ecm if you have the means to.

Hope you get it all worked out and can start making some

cdoyle · 10-27-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarokracker

I had the same problem when i did my last engine swap then realized after much agravation the i had put the small wire to the starter on the wrong terminal. on most gm starters there are 2 terminals that the small wire will fit on and one is just a bypass.. thats the one i accidentaly put mine on. swapped it to the other and VIOLA!!! it worked.

This was it!
I didn't even see that other terminal the first few times I looked, but finally I saw it and switched it over, and it started right up!

I also fixed the fuel pump problem too, and this one is just dumb.

The oil sending unit was defective, I unplugged the unit and the pump stopped, went and got another and now that works fine and the oil gauge is working again too.

So everything is fixed now, going to drive the car home hopefully this week so I can start sanding it down and get it ready to be painted next year sometime!